Greetings !

(Pardon for the longer-than-usual story...)

So, I got a new gun, did some reading, and went out to the range armed with:

• T/C Triumph "Bone Collector" 50 cal
• Nikon Pro Staff scope
• Triple-7 pellets
• 209 primers
• PowerBelt 295 gr., Copper Hollow Point

Started at 50 yards, and after about 15 shots (with 2 pellets each -- 100 gr load) I realized that I'm getting nowhere fast: no significant improvement of grouping or aim. Went home frustrated to do more reading and investigating.

Discovery #1: If you want to maximize your accuracy and consistency - you must clean the bore between shots. Especially in my case, where in my stupidity I shot all 15 bullets with no cleaning at all...

So, following an advice from a seasoned M/L user, I went and got a box of Pre-saturated T-17 patches. Back to the range.

Shot about 12 bullets, cleaning the bore after each shot with the T-17 patches. Clearly, loading became much easier, smoother, and consistent (as far as ramrod depth). Shooting, though, is not much to brag about:

• Can't get better than about 6" grouping at 100 yd
• At least one shot went completely off the target
• Under normal circumstances I consider myself a better-than-6" shooter at 100yd
• Without pushing too hard on the ramrod, a couple of the pellets crashed
• A couple of the pellets broke in transition from the box to the barrel

And here's the cherry on this pie-of-a-story: last shot was a dud. No ignition. I waited, replaced the primer and shot again. Pssst -- and the bullet makes a perfect landing 30 ft in front of me....

So, here's what I'm thinking so far:

• The box of pellets I used was partly defective
• The last load fizzed out because of T-17 residue in the barrel (but assuming that each shot burns everything in the barrel, why did this happen only after 12 shots?)
• I should have run a dry patch after the T-17 to ensure a dry barrel

(Pretty bright thoughts from someone who made such dumb mistakes...)

My action plan for the next trip to the range is to abandon the pellets, and try loose powder. And, of course, dry the barrel after cleaning it between shots.

So, after this long (and embarrassing) story, I'd appreciate your advice and/or thoughts on the following:

1. In the process above -- am I missing something, or do you agree with that logic?
2. (That's a biggy one) -- I bought Triple-7 powder FFFG; from what I read, the 50 cal typically takes FFG; Can I still use the FFFG, or throw it away (can't return it) and buy FFG instead?

Looking forward to reading your thoughts on that. I appreciate it!

Cheers,
Zevi

go to sabots, TC arent engineered for full bore conicals.

The 3fg is fine. Stay with loose and forget the pellets.Find something to shoot other than the Powerbelts.It is possible that you are pushing them too hard.Try a little less than a
100 grain charge. Your line of reasoning on your other problems sounds like your on the right track. Try to do everything the same every time you load.Good luck

Hey Zevi, welcome to the forum.

Yep, as WOODTICK said - the FFFG is just fine. Probably better than double F.

This won't cost much to see if you like it better than the T-17. Pick up a $2 bottle of 91% Isopropyl alcohol at your local drug store or the WalMart pharmacy. Snag yourself some cotton flannel from someones rag bag to make cleaning patches, or buy a yard at a fabric store. Even an old T-Shirt will do. Wet the patch with alcohol, squeeze it out so it doesn't drip, and wipe the bore with that. One or two strokes down and up should do it. You won't need to follow with a dry patch. The bore will be dry by the time you finish measuring your charge.

Holy cow! where do you start..... I guess first off sorry to hear about your experiance... The Triumph is a great gun once you get if figured out.

All of these are just my thoughts - nothing is written in concrete - but I would always suggest you start at 25 yards. If you can not make it happen at 25 no use going any longer.

With T7 most often this is a given - you should run a damp patch after each shot and with a new gun probably even more important. Question did you clean the bore of this gun before you started this adventure. The bore come with a copper packing grease in the barrel - that way the bore does not rust from sitting around for months. You would need a strong bore cleaning solvent for this something Barnes CR10.... The patches will probably come out blue... These are my first patches out of my Triumph bore...




I would suggest you loose the T17 patches except maybe use them up cleaning the bore whan you get home. The T17 patch is to wet and the moisture you leave ion the bore from using them can cause you some major problem even if you run a dry patch afterwards. I use regular old blue windex patches. A lot of folks like to use Alcohol - I do not as the alcohol evaporates way to fast + it is a fuel it can burn... and with the windex it actually provides a bit of lubrication. I like the blue windex as it has ammonia in it versus the vinegar of the other stuff. The ammonia is a string cleaner and evaporates very rapidly + it carries mositure with it when it evaporates. The patches should be just a barely damp - not wet... Her is how I make mine.



Most of these problems could have been easily caused by the wet T17 patches.



Suggestions..

Use the loose powder - start at 90 grains of T7-3f
Shoot at 25 yards - get you impact to be centered left and right then work on taking out the bull.
Shoot at 25 yards - the impact point should now be an !" or so high but still centered left and right.
Patch between shots with a moist windex patch - yo ucan normally use one patch several time just by flipping it over and over - When becomes dry move to the next patch.
Power Belts i f you got them use them - but I would find a much cheaper bullet and some sabots - but that could be a whole nother problem because of the Triumphs tight bore.

Hope some of this helps...

Thank you all for the (very) fast and informative replies! I can't believe I have not thought of tapping into this great knowledge sooner (probably because I have not discovered HunterNet yet...)

So first, I'm glad to hear that my $25 worth of FFFG are not going to waste -- definitely going to use it, and I'm planning on starting at 85 gr (should be about equivalent to the 100 gr of pellets load). Pellets will stay as a distant (unhappy) memory...

Second, I'm going to follow sabotloader's great suggestion for making a batch of pre-saturated Windex patches (I appreciate the detailed photo-guided instructions!) Although I'm sure that Semisane's idea of Isopropyl alcohol is as good, I want to prepare a small container of pre-soaked patches to keep in the shooting box, and I think the alcohol may evaporate too soon.

Yes, quite extensively to remove all visible and invisible long-term storage and protection coating.


All that's left now before heading out, is ammo.
Should I really stay away from what I currently have (PowerBelt) ?
Yes, I still have about $40 worth of bullets, but if the consensus here is that sabots (or other ammo) are the way to go -- I'd rather throw these bullets now and start practicing with the proper ones.

On one hand, I keep reading about T/C tight bore that makes sabots hard to use. On the other hand, most of the T/C-made ammo are sabots.

Within driving distance I usually get my hunting supplies at Cabela's or Dick's Sports
Either way, sabots or PowerBelt -- it's about $1.00 per bullet.

Maybe with the new cleaning method and loose powder, I can try and see if there's any breakthrough with the PowerBelt. However, if sabots are the preferred ammo -- which would you recommend?

Thanks again,
Zevi

I am guessing the wet patches were causing you the headaches.

If I had that rifle... I would purchase the following

#1 pound of Pyrodex RS
three boxes of Shockwaves. Two of them in the 250 grain and one box in the 200 grain .40 caliber class (blue sabots). If your bore is real tight, get the yellow sabots on the 250 gain, or some Harvester Crushed Rib sabots in .452 diameter.

Before you even shoot... swab the bore with a slightly damp patch of your TC cleaning patches. If you need to, put them together between two boards and put that in a vice and tighten it until the fluids come out of the patches. Most the time they are too wet. OR You can ring them out with your fingers on the range. After you swab with that patch, run a dry patch down the bore. Now pop a primer. Check the dry patch and make sure it has burn marks on it. If it does, you are set to go.

On the range I would load 100 grains of Pyrodex RS and a 250 grain shockwave. I would have the target at 25 yards. I would shoot then swab, shoot then swab, and finally shoot once more. Check the group size. It should be very small. Adjust the scope to hit one and a half inches over the bull and then move the target back to 50 yards.

At 50 yards do a three shot group and check your hits. If you are satisfied, move the target back to 100 yards and try again.

Main thing is swab properly, make sure the bore is dry before you dump more powder. Sometimes it takes two dry patches to insure the bore is dry. Load consistently, and seat the ramrod with the same pressure. Also take your time between shots and concentrate. I am sure the next time out all will come together.

Good luck with your rifle. You have a great setup there.

Zevi

A couple of things...

1. Saturated windex patches - well kinda you saturated them and then press as much windex out of the pile as you can so they are just moist... Once you learn how to make them you do not even have to run a dry patch - the bore drys itself. But for now run a dry patch - especially if you hear mositure in the breech plug. If you do pop a primer before loading the next charge. Hint, listen to the air being expelled out of the BP as push the rod down.

2. Bullets - for now just get a box of Hornady 40 cal - 200 grain bullets and some Harvester blue crush ribs for them.

3. Bullets - or a box of Hornady 45/250 grain HP's and a package of Harvester Black 4550 Crush ribs. IMO - not the best hunting bullets in the worls but great paper bullets and they are not a $ a bullet. Get the gun working then worry about what you are going to shoot for hunting.

Good luck - your rifle will shoot PB's once you and it get to know each other... although I would not use PB for hunting either - they sold them to use along with pellets because most believe that is the easiest way to get you shooting....

I think you're pretty well covered with the above advice. Doesn't hurt to do a quick check of the scope and stock screws since you're starting from scratch (I use threadlocker on bases/rings). I shoot 240gr cheap shots or 240gr XTPs for plinking, but generally load up with 250gr Hornady SSTs in my Omega for hunting. The XTPs don't shoot quite as well in my rifle, and aren't hard to beat for trajectory.

Well, like Big Z said -- I think that I'm pretty much covered, thanks to the cumulative experience here that you so generously share!

A couple of last questions (for now...): regarding the Harvester Crushed Rib sabots that both cayugad and sabotloader are referring to -- when I buy sabot bullets they already come in this plastic jacket; so, if I understand correctly, I use these "crushed sabots" (typically about $8 per 50) to replace the sabots that the bullets came with, correct?

Also, and this is more of an engineering/design question: Why would the sabot bullet be considered better than the PowerBelt? After all, the only part of the sabot that serves any purpose is the bottom (to seal the pressure); the plastic on the sides serves no purpose -- in fact, it only causes added friction, hence the preferred design of the Crushed Rib sabots, which reduces this friction with the barrel wall. So, in principal, the PowerBelt should be better because the functional part that seals the pressure is there, but there's no extra friction due to the plastic material between the bullet and the barrel. Not to mention avoiding the extra fouling due to the partial disintegration of the sabot in the barrel. What am I missing?

Cheers,
Zevi