Bergara or TC barrels for the Encore?
 

I bought a TC Encore Pro Hunter this past spring for my wife to start deer hunting with me. She will be using it in blackpowder form for both blackpowder and rifle season. If she enjoys hunting, I would like to get a .243 barrel for her to use in rifle season next year. Might get it even if she doesn't so I can have it. :biggrin: But, the TC barrels in stainless steel run $399 at Bass Pro, though I am sure there are cheaper outlets. The Bergara barrel, also in SS, is only $240 at BellMtcs.com. The difference in price would go a long way to getting a forestock and scope.

Is this a case of getting what you pay for where the TC really is that much better or is it just paying for the name brand?

Check these prices out,http://www.eabco.com/encore.html Plus T/C has a 50.00 rebate going on.

They have much better prices but is it worth an extra $50 as that would buy the rifle forend? I admit, I would automatically trust the TC barrel but if the Bergara is just as good, I would seriously consider it even for only a $50 difference.

I have quite a few T/C barrels and only one Bergara barrel. My opinion is one Bergara barrel is enough. The T/C barrels I have are better

In just about every way the T/C barrels are better. The only Bergara barrel i owned was on a Accura. But i have shot a few. I would highly suggest the T/C barrel ecspecially for a ML.

Gander there is no factory gun that a good gunsmith can not improve; but the TC Triumph is the closeest and several other TC guns including the porhunter and the Endeavor as well as the Omega come closer than anything else.

That's old news. Hell, i've been saying that for years. He sales Bergara barrels and has alot more profit in doing so. The guy is full of ****. He's not shooting sub 1" groups with a wide variety of bullets i can promise you that.

Mike Bellm is another fellow that prefers the Bergara over the TC barrels. Not to make this another pissing match or anything. Theres another guy by the name of Carlos not sure of his last name and he uses nothing but the bergara on his encore. He's posted some great groups with his, including with the Thor's.

I bought Bergara 223 barrel for my encore flopped around like a worm on a hook.
I called Bergara I would have to send in my frame to have a barrel fitted. I could just see them fitting my frame to there barrel instead of the other way round. I have other Encore barrels that fit just fine. So bergara is out for me.

If you are considering a rifle barrel then look here:

http://www.encoreclassifieds.com/

There are a bunch of barrels on there.

Mike Bellm likes the Bergera barrels. But he also sells them. Some for decent price. I am not knocking them, but just be aware that he has "skin in the game".

Personally Bellm did a trigger for me and his work is impeccable. And I trust in his word, but just be careful.

If you take your time you should be able to find a good used custom barrel for about the same money. Or a little more.

Personally I will not buy a Bergera barrel because the TC warranty service is just too good. If you have any problems at all, TC will listen, and make it right. With their $50 rebate you can get a pretty good deal right now. I hae heard that Bergera has straightened up their problems with their barrels, but at one time they were very problematic.

I have also bought from EABCO. And I also consider them good people to deal with. The lady that answers the phone is very friendly. And will do what she says she will do. I really like my Encore rifles(not MZ), and find TC, EABCO, MGM, and Bellm to all be first class people to deal with. Tom.

Thanks everyone, looks like I will stick with TC barrels.

T/C vs Bergara Barrels.
 

I've been ask to make a comment on this post and would be glad to do so. I have been dealing with Thompson Center products for over 30 years. They always have and always will provide us all with high quality rifles.

However, in the past few years, CVA has become very focused on producing products to compete with the upper end TC rifles, and are doing just that. In fact, they have surpassed them in some way's: accuracy, right out of the box is only one.

Let me get one thing out of the way right off the bat, NO company has ever paid MAX not one red cent for anything I've written or any video I've produced. As of the past 30 days, we have stopped all retail sales of any product other than our own, other than the trigger job kits we sell, because we want to keep this exact type of comment from being said about MAX. So, we do not make any profit from selling Bergara barrels or any other prouduct as far as that goes at this time. But, after all of our testing, we do highly recommend them as a better choice over the TC barrels.

MAX will always maintain an indepindant research status, always. As far as choosing TC or Bergara for you Encore, here is what we have found. Bore scopes are not around every corner, but I have had use of one for the purpose of comparing TC to Bergara. As far as the inside of the barrels being tool mark free and smooth, which is what your looking for, the Bergara by far surpasses the TC barrel. This is what allows Bergara equiped rifles, of any brand to out perform other barrels. Don't just take my word for it, look who helped Bergara design these barrels, yes THE Ed Shiling. That should say it all. While shooting professionly in the Marine Corps, we shot Douglas barrels. When we got beat, it was most always by someone shooting Shiling barreled rifles, that's a fact.

Looking further down this thread, I saw someone saying "this guy is full of ...." about the groups we are getting from our testing, I belive they were talking about this "guy" as being me, maybe not. Well, there are a combination of things that make sub-one inch groups possible, it's not just the bullets. For every load we publish that will shoot or provide sub-one inch grops, we're not able to publish 10 that will not. So I guess you could say' give or take a few, we publish 1 out of every 10 loads we test and they are sub-one inch group capable.

In closing this post I will leave you all with this: you will get better out-of-the-box accuracy with a Bergara barrel than a TC. The TC needs more break-in time or lapping before being able to provide sub one groups right out of the box, in most cases. This is what my extinsive testing has proven.

Russell Lynch
Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
www.maxmuzzleloader.com

maxmuzzleloader,
I'm sure you lead more people to believe then not. Most ML writers are very good at that. Let's bring out some facts for all to determine if they need to replace there T/C barrels with Bergara.

1- Bergara barrels come polished right from the factory. T/C barrels do not. So for obvious reasons right out of the box the Bergara barrel will be smoother. Actually smoother then most barrels. The solution to this is shooting your muzzleloader to break in the barrel.

Now you will probably say, i dont want to break in my barrel. I hope you would agree all ML'S need a good thorough cleaning before shooting. In this process, two patches of JB bore paste would smooth the bore just fine and maybe better.

Another easy way to polish/smooth the bore is shooting some lead connicals thru your T/C barrel. Or even some Thors/sabotless bullets. Either way will get your bore smooth and in accuracy condition pretty fast.

Now another point to mention is alot/most are using saboted bullets. The sabot will protect the bullet from any deficiencies in the barrel. This meaning you will not need to be overly concerned if your barrel is not in competition shooting condition. Actually the game you are shooting wont no the difference.

After owning Two Encore's, One ProHunter, Three Triumph's, and shooting several Omega's i would highly suggest all T/C owners to stick with the proven T/C barrels. Maybe a little work to get them nice and polished but you will be alot happier in the end.

And as far as the ML barrels, alot safer and way more reliable breech plug then what CVA has to offer. I also want to note, the Encore really has been the least accurate of the T/C guns i have owned. That break action design i was never fond of.

Now the Triumph on the other hand is different. CVA is along way away from competing with the Triumph in all aspects. The Triumph will out shoot most Bergara CVA'S day in and out. And yes, right out of the box.

I will mention that CVA has come along way. Better barrels no doubt, but they still got along way to go to compete with T/C,Knight and Savage.

BTW- I'm the one that said you were full of **** shooting sub 1" groups at 100yds with different loads and bullets right out of the box. And yes, i'm still sticking with that.

Mr. Lynch I am not familiar with your work, but I respect what you say.

I guess I only have a couple of questions. First you said in the past few years Bergera has come around to producing a better product. So that implies that their product prior to this "few years" might have been inferior?? So in your opinion does this denote a track record?? Or not??

Secondly you say the bore on the TC needs a good lapping?? That may be true. However I lap every barrel I buy(except one Krieger). But wouldn't shooting the barrel for a couple hundred shots do the same thing??

I am a big fan of the Encore. But not the Encore MZ. And I will admit that most of my Encore rifle barrels are MGM. But I have a few TC factory barrels.

My question is this. Do you honestly believe the Bergera barrel shoots so much better than a TC barrel that it is worth ignoring the Bergera track record?? And it out shoots the TC barrel so much that it replaces the customer service of TC?? Tom.

That all sounds good but I don't believe it. I just read your blogs yesterday and you talk about your new video on the accura and apex and how you been spending a lot of quality time with CVA's. Then in another blog you talk about the show and the CVA booth and how you enjoyed visiting them . You clearly show they are good friends and that you are a CVA supporter. Maybe you don't profit from selling barrels but I bet you will profit from selling videos of the Accura and Apex you just finished spending so much time with. .So I don't necessarily believe you are unbiased, I only know what my experience has proven. I just bought a new Accura and the Bergara barrel was so rough that there is pieces of cleaning patches all inside. It is not even close to the quality of my T/C or Knight guns. They have come a long way but in my opinion they are inferior no matter what your expert,so called unbiased view says.
As long as you have a product you will have an agenda just like any other marketer. And the bottom line will always be money.

Sir,

I'm sure that you have been on this forum for a long time and may be one of the go-to leader's here as well. I can tell you have been shooting and owning TC muzzleloaders for quite some time, and I will respect that. More so than you have respected me.

I was specifically asked by one of my MANY satisfied customers to respond to this thread to help give a little professional input, and right off the bat, this is what I get. My advice, sir, comes from ten's of thousands of dollars of research, and hundreds and more hundreds of hours of range time. I don't know how much time, money and experience your advice comes from, but that's my hand, and I play it very well.

With that said, I will say that it is obvious you have very limited knowledge of the muzzleloading industry as a whole.

1. You said: “I'm sure you lead more people to believe then not. Most ML writers are very good at that.” I lead people to achieve better accuracy and big game performance from research and testing through my professional experience. I am very good at helping them achieve this through unbiased facts.

2. You said: “Bergara barrels come polished right from the factory. T/C barrels do not. So for obvious reasons right out of the box the Bergara barrel will be smoother.” This is the reason that Bergara barrels are more prone to produce tighter shot-groups right out-of-the-box. You yourself have agreed with this statement. If you had watched either one of my first two videos (one on the Encore, the other on the Omega) you be aware that I advise that one way to get TC rifles to shoot better is to shoot it many multiple times to get the barrel to settle down.

3. You said: “Now you will probably say, I don’t want to break in my barrel.” I never said this, but highly recommend it with a TC barrel.

4. You said: “I hope you would agree all ML'S need a good thorough cleaning before shooting. In this process, two patches of JB bore paste would smooth the bore just fine and maybe better.” I do agree that cleaning is necessary before a new rifle is fired, and all manufacturers recommend the same thing. However, two patches of JB bore paste WILL NOT smooth a bore to any noticeable difference in accuracy. I don’t know where you get your information, but that is absolutely not true.

5. You said: “Another easy way to polish/smooth the bore is shooting some lead conicals thru your T/C barrel. Or even some Thors/sabotless bullets. Either way will get your bore smooth and in accuracy condition pretty fast.” There is no easy way to smooth the tool marks from a barrel. Lead conicals is something I do recommend to someone who wants to shoot a TC Encore barrel, but it is not an easy or quick fix to the tool mark issue. That is also a fact.

6. You said: “Now another point to mention is alot/most are using saboted bullets. The sabot will protect the bullet from any deficiencies in the barrel. This meaning you will not need to be overly concerned if your barrel is not in competition shooting condition. Actually the game you are shooting wont no the difference.” No matter if the sabot surrounds the bullet going down the barrel, the tool marks left in the barrel still have an effect. In other words, sir, you cannot omit the tool marks just because you are shooting a saboted bullet. And tool mark will most certainly affect a plastic sabot. This is another fact. And by the way, if you MISS your target, the game will certainly not know the difference, but YOU will.

7. You said: “After owning Two Encore's, One ProHunter, Three Triumph's, and shooting several Omega's i would highly suggest all T/C owners to stick with the proven T/C barrels. Maybe a little work to get them nice and polished but you will be alot happier in the end.” Sir, you obviously admit in this paragraph that you agree with me that TC barrels need some work to get them nice and polished. You also seem to admit that you have no experience with CVA or any other muzzleloading brands. And again, there is NO EASY PROCESS to smoothing a barrel.

8. You said: “And as far as the ML barrels, alot safer and way more reliable breech plug then what CVA has to offer.” Other than whatever old articles you may have read on the internet that were most likely published by Randy Wakeman, do you know anything at all about CVA’s safety record? Past or present? If you can find a current article on the CVA breach plug not being reliable or safe, I would appreciate you proving that by sending it to me.

9. You said: “I also want to note, the Encore really has been the least accurate of the T/C guns i have owned. That break action design i was never fond of.” Here sir, you openly admit that Encore’s are not accurate and according to you, this is due to the break action design.

10. You said: “Now the Triumph on the other hand is different.” I want to point out that the Triumph is also a break action design. But your above statement says the Encore is inaccurate due to the break action design. So, what makes your Triumph different from the Encore in this regard. ??

11. You said: “The Triumph will out shoot most Bergara CVA'S day in and out. And yes, right out of the box.” First of all, Bergara does not own CVA. Even though both companies are owned by BPI, Inc. Bergara simply supplies the barrels for CVA rifles. You cannot possibly have a qualified opinion about whether a Triumph can or cannot out shoot a CVA as you don’t appear to own a CVA or have stated you have any experience with one at all.

12. You said: “I will mention that CVA has come along way. Better barrels no doubt, but they still got along way to go to compete with T/C,Knight and Savage.” In this statement, you agree that CVA has come a long way and without doubt have better barrels. But you also make the comparison, not only to TC, but to Knight & Savage. Are you aware that Knight has been closed and reopened but is selling leftovers and parts and it is unknown whether they will ever manufacture another rifle? And also, are you aware that this is the last year that Savage will be producing their muzzleloader? If they can out compete CVA, why are they both going out of business?

13. You say: “BTW- I'm the one that said you were full of **** shooting sub 1" groups at 100yds with different loads and bullets right out of the box. And yes, i'm still sticking with that.” When you said such derogatory remarks about me in your first post, I was an unknown person/company and maybe that sort of thing is allowed or even welcomed on this forum. But once I responded, the fact that you attacked me again personally with such a statement seems extremely rude and shows your level of class.

Just for more information on me, I own more than a dozen TC rifle's that will all shoot less than 1" groups at 100 yards, but none right out-of-the-box. Most all of them have TC factory barrels on them. You seemed to have assumed, wrongly, that I don’t like TC, which I never said. So who's the opened minded person here now?

I have not got a clue as to how much real, professional experience you have in the topic of which you find yourself in the position to be giving this type of advice, nor will I ever truly know. But I will tell you this, I have the professional background to back up what I am saying. I also have a 30 plus years of history as a very well-respected public servant in Law Enforcement and in the United States Marine Corps. My level of character, loyalty and truthfulness, as far as I can tell, is far greater that yours, I will assure you of that.

I am an un-sponsored professional in the ballistic, accuracy and marksmanship industry. All of these things are set in stone, I have earned all of my credentials the hard way, I've worked for them, and they cannot be disputed. See my website for a list of my qualifications.

Now sir, I'm respecting that you have the right to say whatever you want to, in fact I have been personally involved in defending the very Constitution of the United States in order for you to be able do so, for over 30 years. Have you done the same for me or anyone else? If not, that's ok, I did it for us all, and have never asked anything in return.

I would extend to you this: if you truly want to have a good look at who I am and what my company does and what I’m about, send me your mailing address and I will supply you with free copies of every How To DVD that I have produced to date. This may give you some insight so you can be more qualified to give advise about muzzleloading to other people in the future.

Finally, I will now monitor this forum for inaccuracies that you might post concerning the muzzleloading industry. I owe this to the muzzleloader consumers, whom I directly work for.

Sincerely,

Russell Lynch
Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
www.maxmuzzleloader.com

Just what we need :bash::bash:

Tom,

I appreciate your respect of me and my knowlege and I am happy to answer your questions. Since you are not familar with my work, I hope you will go to my website and I think it will be clear as to who I am and what my intentions are.




1. You said: “First you said in the past few years Bergara has come around to producing a better product. So that implies that their product prior to this "few years" might have been inferior?? So in your opinion does this denote a track record?? Or not??” What I said was: “However, in the past few years, CVA has become very focused on producing products to compete with the upper end TC rifles, and are doing just that.” Bergara is owned by BPI (Black Powder Incorporated) as is CVA. Bergara simply supplies the barrels for CVA rifles. What I’m implying is that in the past CVA has been viewed as a value brand muzzleloader, not as a premium brand muzzleloader. By producing the Accura and Apex, CVA is now doing a very good job at providing the muzzleloading consumer with a rifle that competes with or surpasses their competitors (whoever that might be).

2. You said: “Secondly you say the bore on the TC needs a good lapping?? That may be true. However I lap every barrel I buy(except one Krieger). But wouldn't shooting the barrel for a couple hundred shots do the same thing??” Yes, it most certainly would. I say that in my videos on the TC products. Truth be known, any rifle barrel, muzzleloader or centerfire, by any manufacturer will get better with age by being shot. But it costs us between $2 - $2.75 each and every time we pull the trigger on a muzzleloader. The TC rifles are already pretty pricey compared to the other options, don’t you think they should perform accordingly? So, should consumers be expected pay another $200 plus dollars just to get their TC, or any other rifle, to perform? If you look at all muzzleloader manufacturers marketing, they will lead you to believe that you can expect minute-of-angle accuracy out-of-the-box. All I’m saying is that the CVA rifles I have tested perform better than TC rifles I’ve tested off-the-shelf.

3. You said: “My question is this. Do you honestly believe the Bergara barrel shoots so much better than a TC barrel that it is worth ignoring the Bergera track record??” To start with, I would like to point out that I know of no negative track record with Bergara at all. The only negative track record that anyone might have could be with CVA, not Bergara. It is no secret, and CVA will tell you, that in 1995 and 1996 CVA voluntarily recalled a certain model of rifle. That was an isolated incident that to my knowledge has been corrected and was back when they were under different ownership. I want to go on record as saying: There are no current safety issues or any other quality issues that I’m aware of with CVA, Bergara or any other BPI product.

4. You said: “And it out shoots the TC barrel so much that it replaces the customer service of TC??” The lack of proper customer service from Thompson Center is what has put me in the business of what I am doing right now in the muzzleloader industry. When I purchased my first TC Encore 9 years ago, I was appalled at the lack of accuracy that the rifle would produce. After numerous calls to TC attempting to get the accuracy problem fixed, I ended up pulling from my past experience in ballistics, accuracy and marksmanship and ended up solving the problem myself. Read the quote below from my website (and a book that will be released to the public in the next few weeks).

“M.A.X. was created when Russell had a poor experience with an upper-end, inline muzzleloader around 2003. Despite repeated phone calls, the manufacturer of the rifle was not a lot of help on fixing the accuracy problem, so Russell took matters into his own hands. Utilizing his past professional experience with shooting, ballistics, rifles and marksmanship to achieve precision, long-range accuracy, Russell took his knowledge and resolved that situation. Realizing that everyone did not have the extensive background he had, Russell began to share his experience with others so that they might get the same results from their muzzleloaders. And M.A.X. was born.”

I appreciate your respect of me and my post in this forum and I hope that I have answered all your questions.

Thanks,

Russell
MAX Muzzleloader
www.maxmuzzleloader.com

I guess I was mistaken. I thought that CVA always wore the Bergera barrels(in the last ten years or so). I realize CVA is a trade name, and not a mfr. So it would be appropriate that Bergera and CVA are different companies. I do understand that. Personally I do not own any of the current Bergera barrels so it would be inappropriate for me to comment on their accuracy. I really was talking about my prior opinions of CVA products. And I may have inappropriately connected the two at the hip.

I did personally sell TC products on the wholesale level for many years. I also sold CVA products on the wholesale level. My company carried by both products. So my actual experience was with the amount ofv CVA product I had to return vs. the amount of TC product I had to return. This time period was in the 80's thru early 90's. And honestly I returned 10 to 1 CVA over TC. But in fairness I also sold considerably more CVA product because of the price. So that is where I developed the prior track record opinion.

Also the fact that I could call TC CS and they would replace a product on my word. At times I did not even need to send a product back. Whereas with CVA it was more troublesome. And also the fact that I sold alot of Charles Daly which was supplied to us through CVA, but produced overseas.

In my honest opinion if TC products shot just over 1 MOA and Bergera shot just under 1 MOA. I would still go with the TC products. First because personally I do believe TC CS is better. And second it is an American made product.

However in the past I have not had a problem attaining 1MOA with my TC factory barrels. Albeit with a little work, but none the less.

I also guess it is alot cheaper for me to shoot an MZ because I cast all my own bullets. So for me cost of projectiles is not important. But I do respect what you say about people who have to buy them. But then 1-1/2 hours of elbow grease and a few brushes and a jar of JB will solve most problems. Tom.

Chetmarks,

I don’t know what it is that you don’t believe but let me just make a few general comments about your attack.

I did not even meet anyone at CVA until over a year after I had purchased and had been testing my Accura rifle. However, I had already produced and was selling three How To Videos on Thompson Center products, before I even purchased a CVA product. We have two more TC How To Videos that we plan to produce in the next year.

I responded to a post on this forum at the request of one of my customers earlier today that seemed to be a post of some guy trying to decide whether or not to purchase a TC muzzleloader barrel or Bergara barrel for his Encore. I simply responded with a sincere, honest answer according to my extensive testing of both.

I DO now know almost all the guys at CVA. I also know some of the top guys at Blackhorn Powder, at Caldwell Lead Sled, at Hornady Bullets, at Barnes Bullets, at Parker Bullets, at MDM Muzzleloaders, at DNZ Scope Mounts, at Talley Scope Mounts, at AccuScope, at Burris Scopes, at Leatherwood Scopes, at Brownells, at E. Arthur Brown Co, and I even knew a lot of the guys at the Thompson Center Custom Shop before they closed the doors on it in the past 30 days. To go even further than that, I talked to some of the above guys on a weekly basis. We are even in the process of filming & interviewing some of these guys for our videos just so that YOU and other muzzleloading consumers can get to know them on a more personal basis. I’m on YOUR side.

None of the above companies have paid my company one red cent to date. Furthermore, I go out of my way to find Mom & Pop companies that I can introduce to the muzzleloader consumers to give them a chance to complete in this industry.

I absolutely admit that I hope MAX will profit from the videos we produce to bring good information to the muzzleloader consumers so that they can make well-informed purchases of muzzleloading equipment anytime, especially in today’s economy. And I will actively pursue relationships with all muzzleloading companies possible to get good information and share with YOU all.

We have a very strict policy as to how we research any product that the muzzleloading industry offers for sale to the muzzleloader consumer. The first and foremost of our many requirements is that we, MAX, PURCHASE OURSELVES every item we test. That’s one of the ways that we insure we can make an unbiased assessment and say whatever we want, unlike a lot of the big-name, so called professional hunters who are directly on the payroll of major companies in the hunting industry.

One of my personal, best attributes in my life has been that I have never been able to be bought or owned by anyone and I take offense at your attacking my personal integrity.

Sincerely,

Russell
MAX Muzzleloader
www.maxmuzzleloader.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxmuzzleloader
Sir,
I will now monitor this forum for inaccuracies that you might post concerning the muzzleloading industry. I owe this to the muzzleloader consumers, whom I directly work for.

Sincerely,

Russell Lynch
Muzzleloader Accuracy Xperts
www.maxmuzzleloader.com

You should just become a Moderator, that will make it easier. As far as Knight and Savage, you don't have a clue. I'm glad you have taken the time to post on open forums.:s4:

BTW- I'm far from a professional, i promise that. But accurate and true information in the field or on the range is a guarantee.

maxmuzzleloader

Excuse me for saying this You truly are a joke!!! and now that I have read your posts you are bigger joke than I thought... With your attitude and know it all attitude - I really hope the best for you in the future...

Just for keeps.:s4:

Someone sure has been touchy since they last stayed over at a hotel, had dinner and went shooting with Knight.... Sure seems like a normal non professional position if you ask me ;)

Gee - I wonder who the "customer" was that requested "professional" help.

I bought one of the DVD's several years ago - got much better help here and a couple other forums for free from several lowly amatuers.

[quote=maxmuzzleloader;3676114]Chetmarks,

I don’t know what it is that you don’t believe but let me just make a few general comments about your attack.
Sorry you felt it was an attack, it wasn't meant to be and you are right ,I didn't make it clear what I don't believe. I type with one finger and so I don't always give enough info to clarify my thoughts. I will try to take the time to do that more in the future.

I did not even meet anyone at CVA until over a year after I had purchased and had been testing my Accura rifle. However, I had already produced and was selling three How To Videos on Thompson Center products, before I even purchased a CVA product. We have two more TC How To Videos that we plan to produce in the next year.
I believe that. I figured you follow the market trend. T/C use to dominate the industry for a while so you come along and decide you might be able to create a business by helping everyone get their T/C's shooting better. Of course making as much money in the process would be good. Now through aggressive marketing and hyberbole advertising CVA is gobbling up a big market share ,so of course you have to do videos on how to make the cva's shoot better since that is what more consumers are buying. I'm sure you wouldn't make a video of how to make your Pedersoli Denali shoot better. Who would buy that when there are probably only a handful sitting around in someones closet.

I responded to a post on this forum at the request of one of my customers earlier today that seemed to be a post of some guy trying to decide whether or not to purchase a TC muzzleloader barrel or Bergara barrel for his Encore. I simply responded with a sincere, honest answer according to my extensive testing of both.
I figured the local CVA fanatic who tries to turn every thread into a push for cva decided to call in the big guns on this one

I DO now know almost all the guys at CVA. I also know some of the top guys at Blackhorn Powder, at Caldwell Lead Sled, at Hornady Bullets, at Barnes Bullets, at Parker Bullets, at MDM Muzzleloaders, at DNZ Scope Mounts, at Talley Scope Mounts, at AccuScope, at Burris Scopes, at Leatherwood Scopes, at Brownells, at E. Arthur Brown Co, and I even knew a lot of the guys at the Thompson Center Custom Shop before they closed the doors on it in the past 30 days. To go even further than that, I talked to some of the above guys on a weekly basis. We are even in the process of filming & interviewing some of these guys for our videos just so that YOU and other muzzleloading consumers can get to know them on a more personal basis. I’m on YOUR side.
Name dropping has always turned me off because people usually do that to appear like they are superior to the average person. They want to come across as a part of the elite and well connected. Then again when it is a business there is a lot of truth to the statement "it isn't what you know but who you know"

None of the above companies have paid my company one red cent to date. Furthermore, I go out of my way to find Mom & Pop companies that I can introduce to the muzzleloader consumers to give them a chance to complete in this industry.
I'm sure they haven't paid you, you simply capitalize on their advertising dollar. They market the product, promote it, get it to the consumer and you follow along to take a few more bucks from the consumer for your own pocket.

I absolutely admit that I hope MAX will profit from the videos we produce to bring good information to the muzzleloader consumers so that they can make well-informed purchases of muzzleloading equipment anytime, especially in today’s economy. And I will actively pursue relationships with all muzzleloading companies possible to get good information and share with YOU all.
I translate that to mean you will continue to do what you do best, peddle your videos. Then in spite of your disparging remarks about Savage and Knight that if Knight makes a come back and starts selling a lot of guns you will arrive on the scene and help the Knight owners get better accuracy,

We have a very strict policy as to how we research any product that the muzzleloading industry offers for sale to the muzzleloader consumer. The first and foremost of our many requirements is that we, MAX, PURCHASE OURSELVES every item we test. That’s one of the ways that we insure we can make an unbiased assessment and say whatever we want, unlike a lot of the big-name, so called professional hunters who are directly on the payroll of major companies in the hunting industry.
I doubt that you can say what you want because you can only make a good product better you could never say a certain brand was junk. That might end your affiliation in the indusrty. I assume you are much to diplomatic for that.

One of my personal, best attributes in my life has been that I have never been able to be bought or owned by anyone and I take offense at your attacking my personal integrity.
I wasn't attacking your personal integrity just doubting some of the things you say.
If I am wrong then I apologize. But if you really want to help the consumer rather then market your videos why don't you just upload them to U-Tube and post a link on the forums for everyone. OH I forgot , there's no money in that. It would be better to enter the forum, the great and mighty expert and post a link at the bottom of every post for your website. Might pick up a few customers.
One last thing. You make mention of Shillin barrels. I remember when I was checking out Bergara barrels and they talked about Shillin and had pictures of him touring the plant in Spain. I thought , now that is genius in marketing. Pay someone famous a consultant fee, get afew photos of them and post it on your website. Now if people jump to the conclusion that your barrels are the best because someone famous was involved and toured the plant , well you know they say "Let the Buyer beware"
Anyway ,welcome to the forum. After my finger rests I will finish with a few more clarifications.

I don't have a dog in this online shouting match but what i have figured out is put max on the md side with cva vs tom and his knights(lehigh). I sure wish someone would take traditions side they seem to need alot of help these days. Thanks guys for the good read in the boring days before bow season starts.

Thanks

chuck "a t/c encore fan"

MountainDevil54/Frontier Gander/ and or what ever other handles you have

I really think you and your new best friend really should go start another more Professional Expert site that all of us somewhat normal folks could just visit when we needed to to get the expert professional advice and guidance - you two can dish out. What would even be a bigger help is if you and him could not mix with us pure mortals on these mortal sites.

I had a great time and hope to do it again in the near future.

Now Junior, i never mentioned Knight one time in this thread. I'm supporting T/C all the way. This is something your not used to, supporting multiple manufactures.

:)this has been a very fun read,but if i need help i'll go the one person whose word is worth more than gold,the man whos word can not be disputed by any rationally thinking man(i guess this leaves you out semi:))most of you folks know who i'm talkin about.

THE BORECLEANINGWEASEL:hail:

now,argue with that........karl

this has been a very fun read,but if i need help i'll go the one person whose word is worth more than gold,the man whos word can not be disputed by any rationally thinking man(i guess this leaves you out semi:))most of you folks know who i'm talkin about.

THE BORECLEANINGWEASEL:hail:

now,argue about that.......karl

Just to let you know you are correct about Traditions, I have purchsed a Traditions Vortex for testing in the furture. I also spent sometime with these guy's at the shot show, and they are good folks that are very commited to building a good product for the muzzleloader consumer. I don't work for them or anyone else, but will do a more than fair review of their products, just like all of the others that we have done.

Would you mind expanding on this subject a little bit? I was under the impression that the Savage 10ML-II was doing well. What would be the reason for Savage to drop it from their lineup?

I have no idea as to why they would be droping this rifle either. I hunt with some die-hard Savage owners in Indiana. They are an outstanding rifle, very accurate. Just was something that was talked about 3 weeks ago at the POMA (Professional Outdoor Meida Association) conference. No one there , that delt with muzzleloaders could belive it either. If I hear more, I would be glad to pass it on.

Thanks,

Russell

maxmuzzleloader

Maybe you should talk to some one from Savage or even Knight and find out what might be going on for real before you drop un-verified information.

Seems like that would be the correct procedure for some one with your credentials... just saying

Never talked to Maxmler before so again, you are wrong.

I do have interest though in the Accura video. Never know what could have been over looked.

This entire thread is the stuff that American politics are made of. SAD.I noticed who wasn't involved in this thread.

Russell,

If you haven't figured it out by now, these open forums are the "Kiss Of Death" for someone in your line of work? Especially when you are here to jingle, not mingle!

Badbowbender2,

Thanks for the 411, I was just ask to give my opinion on a barrel, that's how this all started. I have done the the fourm thing in the past, and should have known better.

I did come in to mingle, but as seems to be the trend with some of todays forums, no matter the topic, it is that the new guy, no matter who they are, that will get beat-up on if they buck the ones that seem to have control, and that's not what I did nor was that my intintion. However, it should not matter, if your a new member or a long term poster, it is an open fourm and anyone should be able to say what's on their mind without getting beat up on. But that's the way it is and I can take it, I'm very thick skinned.

I just have a huge problem about getting beat up on when someone, who really don't even know who I am or what I'm about starts dishing it out the way they did. The main thing that has really been put on the chopping block here, as I see it, is my character and that of, AND LET ME BE VERY CLEAR. 2 or 3 MEMBERS of this fourm. That being the case, it is clear that I came out on top, and in that area, I always will.

You see, never has any guest at my house ever been nor will ever be treated liked I was here. I guess it's all in the way you raized from childhood.

Thanks Again,

Russell Lynch