spaniel
This recommended limits is a bit confused, the powder company recomends a limit for the weakest gun they know of, the gun manufactures recommend a different one. I do my own testing and go by the results.

Lee

I do not think there is any doubt that increasing the pressure on the burn of BH DOES increases the burning efficiency of BH.

WABI

I really do not thik that 110 grains is the top of the spike for T7. If I increase 120 or even 130 with a 300 grain bullet or even a .458/350 grain bullet the powder will increase velocity. It is still not as effecient as BH. I think Spaniel's velocities with the 325 indicate that.

Mike
the gain in velocities with the BH is o.k., but what do your groups look like at say 100yds with it? Have you compared the T7 and BH both at 100yds to see what groups better?
I know you were just trying out your new Chrno and testing different Primers, but where does BH start to fall apart in accuracy compared to T7 at longer distances?
(BP)

I know, we've had this issue ever since our options expanded beyond Pyrodex. I know you have the electronics to test your guns, but most of us don't have that option. So I was going by the most commonly used limits I've heard of for mass produced guns....there are guns rated for 200gr loads of 777 after all (Ultimate Firearms Inc).

What I would like to see is a test of BH209 and 777 with 200, 250 and 300 gr bullets in several different guns to see where they hit the max safe pressure. My guess is that, especially for heavier bullets, you'll see a longer pressure curve for BH209 and therefore get higher velocity at the same peak pressure. But I have not seen such data produced.

Then there is the issue of defining what your max safe pressure is in a ML. Centerfires have SAAMI guidelines to refer to. What is the max safe pressure in an Omega vs an Accura vs a Disc Elite???


As a postscript, let me point out that it is a myth that you reach a limit in velocity with 777 once you reach a certain charge and just blow powder out the barrel. Not only have I not observed a limit going all the way up to max recommended charge (135gr loose) with bullets 200-325gr, but I recently met someone at work with one of these Ultimate Firearms rifles that shoots 4 777 pellets with a 300gr bullet and a 26" barrel and while I don't recall the exact velocity off the top of my head it was certainly higher than anything anyone here has generated....2,300 fps rings a bell but I'd have to email him to tell for sure.

Perhaps whenever I finally get a plug for my smokeless ML I could generate some interesting numbers for you guys, I could safely stuff way more 777/BH209 in that thing than is possible in guns being discussed here. This would allow us to answer some interesting questions without putting anyone at risk of pushing the limits too far in a normal ML rifle.

Those are good vel. (the extreme spread is excellent) figures with a 300 grain bullet and only 110 grains of FF T7.

I took my Encore PH out and (never used a crony with a MZ before) using 130 grains of FFF T7 I was getting in the low to mid 1800s. Though I did discover that my measure is off by about 10grains compaired to another. So more like 120 grain of fff T7.

Using 145 grains (really about 135 grains) I got 1921 and 1923 on the two shots using that volume.

Breechplug

I realy do not see any difference but i am hunter not really a perfectionist - I can shoot as well as many. A lot claim they get better accuracy. The other thing I look at is the consistency of the velocities, remembering I do not weight powder I throw it on site, so keeping the velocities on the same ball park is a good indicator for me.

You can see in the 120 grain target - they do shoot about the same - if you could remove shooter error - think they would be pretty darn close.

I really do not know that it does, BH provides somewhat of a softer recoil because it is progressive burning so I am sure that would relate to better accuracy on the high end of powder loads. I really think that is one of the reason that T7 opens with heavy loads. If you were to re-work your rifle to absorb that recoil I think you could hold 150 grains of T7 right in there with 100 grains of T7.

Belive me also - if BH were in my price range - that is the powder I would be shooting, but doubling the price for less just does not fit with me... If i were to shoot BH I could really just go back to shooting centerfires and probably spend less money....

Rumor: It has been said that Alliant has introduced a new powder at the S.H.O.T. show called 'Black Dot' that is suppose to be a new ML sub. I am really excited about that - I justs hope it pans out to be true and is priced affordable.

If they DO, and it has BH209 properties or better, and IF they are smarter about pricing and distribution, they could own the market. I have no marraige to 777 but there would have be be obscene performance advantages for me to switch to BH209. But I would certainly pay a premium over 777 price.