Big Z

Too expensive for me. Give me some of the stinky stuff, and I'll open your eyes

sabotloader

flybub

Those would have more than likely been MMP HPH-24's.

If they were that tight the 'crush rib' might work very well for you or it might be a bit loose to hold the compression needed for BH. If you get some hangfires the next option might be to try some Harvester 'short black' (5045sb) sabots and or MMP HPH-3p-EZ load sabots as well.

onetohunt

Very good points made. But I was comparing it to the pellets since that is what a lot of guys like to use and when you do the math it is just as economical and cheaper than a brick of T7. I think the 50 loads will come out somewhere around .75 per shot. But I will agree with your loose comparison.

lemoyne

If you watch your money real close you will find Pyrodex the best choice, it has the best price every where I have check. If you don't live in a high altitude you will likely get crudring from 777 and thats more trouble than any powder is worth, at 25 a 10 oz can + shipping and hazmat Blackhorn is real close to the same as 777 is where it is available to me but since I would not use it anyway its immaterial as far as I am concerned. Some times expense has to do with the way you look at things, not having to scrub the crudring out between every shot made shooting much more enjoyable for me, not having to do any swabbing or carry any cleaning stuff when hunting was an other step up and when I found it was a progressive powder which I could go beyond the point where constant burn powders were burning after they left the barrel that was a serious difference in capability. There is also a difference in burning peak time and a pressure advantage. I would say to you to try them all over time, You will soon find out what is best suited to the type and kind of gun you use and your own preferences. If you have traditional guns Black or pyrodex is best, if you have one of the ones with difficult ignition Blackhorn is not for you. Lee

Pglasgow

One can not argue with the numbers. But then BH209 isn't meant to be cheaper. They market it as an improved powder which is worth the extra $. BH209 is little more economical than that for me as a consequence of the Bullshops 500 grain conical ability to get more muzzle energy from the powder than lighter bullets can.

A mere 43 grain grains weight of BH209 propels that conical to muzzle energy of 1890 ft lbs. To get the same from T7 requires 58 grain weight of T7. While the T7 is cheaper to shoot at 18 cents per load (compared to BH209 @ 32 cents) .... 32 cents is more reasonable. Since I don't use 20 cent sabots with bull shops but 1 .60 fiber wad (@1.6 cents), I save some there and the BS are no more expensive a bullet than any other. So on a cost per load its reasonable.

Now is it worth it? I'm going to say it can be. Relative to T7 the no-crud ring part of it is fantastic. Though crud ring is more of a problem for some than others. No preparing moist patches. Precision on a fouled barrel That has value and so it all depends on the individual I think.

Also, locally T7 does cost $25 plus tax although I can get it cheaper if I travel 45 miles. I calculated T7's cost above at the travel cost of 18.95 plus tax I calculated BH209 at my order cost of $32 a jug shipped to my residence.

sabotloader

Phil...

Yep! and General Dynamics loves that attitude. Compare the price of BH to a bottle of 5744 a slow burning Smokeless Progressive buring powder. There is even a powder produced by IMR that has the same holes, same shape and it much cheaper and come in 16 oz's. (the IMR number escapes at the moment) Problem being it is faster and stronger.

There is not doubt that the real advantage of BH is in shooting heavy conicals, less powder and less pressure at any given time, while the projectile is in the bore. But how may heavy conicals are shot versus 300 and lighter projectiles. Even them those folks shooting heavy conicals are shooting for more black powder than BH.

BH is great for those that want to pay the price - I choose to pass for the most part.

So why would you compare local prices of T7 with online prices of BH... Can you even buy it locally? Bh is $36.00 here locally and T7 $21.98 here locally.

If you are going to compare compare online to online...

Powder Valley will ship T7 to your house also for $18.40....

sabotloader

onetohunt

You are right most of the folks that are trying to make their point compare the price of BH to T7 pellets, that is the only way they can make it look good. But the fact is the total number of people shooting pellets is very minor to the number of folks shooting loose. Beside BH is loose people should compare apples to apples

onetohunt

Points well made, and not trying to argue, but I really think that most inline shooters do shoot the pellet, at least in the midwest here where I hunt. At any rate, when I shoot the two powders side by side, and I consider all the factors invovled, how long to sight in, and overall accuracy, and the total amount of clean up supplies it takes, the BH 209 is a better value.
Thanks for your good points though.

sabotloader

onetohunt

I THINK if you conducted a poll you might really be surprised at the lack of pellets shot - but I can be wrong - that is a proven fact.

And I think I consider about the same points and I would disagree. The huge factor that BH has on it's side is convenience - it truly is more convenient for some than using T7. I am one of the fortunate ones that does not have a problem with the 'crud ring' and/or reloading consecutive shots. The other factor for me is 'cost'. I certainly do not shoot as much as other but i go through 6 to 8 lbs of T7 yearly and when I do the math - on my budget I can do a lot more shooting with T7.

Pglasgow

No I meant my cost including the shipping and hazmat fees. I bought 5 jugs. Its different strokes for different folks I guess. BH209 is really tough to ignite in my Apex with Win W209's. Won't do it after 3 shots. I've solved the problem in a unique way by duplexing it with blackpowder. I've not tried lower concentrations but I have found that 25% by volume 3f Goex ... 75% by volume BH209 is just slightly more energetic than 100% BH209 (muzzle energy). Furthermore it goes off everytime with those primers and any other primer. This works well for me.

Not recommending anyone else to do it ... particularly you guys using over 80 grains. But I tested this blend up to 80 grains with the 270 BB and up to 60 grains with the 500 BS. The chrony results suggest the energy is comparable to an equal volume of BH209 and so I think the peak pressure higher than BH209 alone but lower pressure than an equal volume of blackpowder.

The blackpowder does not affect the fowling adversely and adds little smoke. Today I shot 20 rounds with 60 Bh209 20 3f goex and the 270 BB and one .60 fiber wad. It shoots consistently and with precision without swabbing once. And 3 dry swabs left the barrel very shiny even before cleaning with Hoppes #9. The fowling is different than blackpowder. It is pliable and cleans out with dry patches.

I don't mix the powders of course in the jugs. I use Lane's powder vials. First measure by volume the 20 grains of blackpowder. Then add the 60 grains of BH209 on top. Then I just mix them up by shaking. The blackpowder helps with static in those vials (which straight BH209 is prone to) and is hard to notice. But the mixture is sufficient to lower the heat required to set it off. It booms every time with no loss of power. It also makes the BH209 extend farther at lower cost.

The load above yields a muzzle energy of 1652 ft. lbs and a muzzle velocity of 1660 fps. The velocity at 10 yards where they were chronied averaged 1602 fps and ranged from 1591 to 1620. They were volume measured loads so I really do think I could cut that down to a variance of less than +-5 fps by weighing the charges. As a comparison, 80 grains of BH209 alone (when it fires good) yielded 1648 fps. So pretty close to the same.

Personally, I prefer doing this to modifying my bridge plugs and risking a charge which doesn't go off while hunting. I get a charge that goes off everytime with any primer. Shot after shot without swabbing. And easy cleanup. But I don't think anyone else should do it and I am vehemently stating that I am not recommending this to anyone, PARTICULARLY, people using greater volumes of powder than I have tested with.