Not opinions just facts.
 

I got involved in a small confrontation today at the sporting goods store. Go figure:wave:

There is no way possible to say that BH209 is the same cost or comparable to 777. Folks.... sorry it's not even close. From one zip code to the next 777 is all over the map on pricing.:confused2: I actually have no idea why. I decided to go with online purchasing to be fair. I like to buy BH209 at Powder Valley. Why, because it's the cheapest place for me. And yes i will pay a hazmat fee. As you can see BH209 is $26.95 plus hazmat for 10 ounces of powder. http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/

Now i take a look at 777 powder in both ffg and fffg. The price listed is $18.40 a pound (16 ounces) plus hazmat fee. You do the math. Not only is 777 almost $9.00 bucks a bottle cheaper, you get an extra 6 ounces as well. That's almost a half pound extra. As you can see, 777 is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy cheaper per shot comparing apples to apples.

Now dont get me wrong, i much rather shoot Bh209 for a few reasons. But i also realize i'm paying more to do so. I also know BH209 is a better powder for me. But, i can also achieve the same thing i do with BH209 with 777 ffg or even fffg. Or atleast the animal wont know the difference.;)

Too bad Barack is so busy trying to sell a Federal health care monopoly to the uninformed, because what we need a "community organizer" to deal with the BlackHorn problem.

I would bet something amazing would happen if everyone who is now using BH would quit buying the stuff immediately and send an e-mail to the "contact us" address on the BH web page ([email protected]) saying "I love BH but I will no longer buy it until there is a full pound of powder in the canister and the price is reduced to a reasonable level."

It is the one reason I do not shoot much BlackHorn 209. When my brother can find it at Cabela's and then I don't have to pay the hazmat fee, its still more expensive but something I am willing to accept.

But I shoot too much. And for that reason, I shoot black powder, pyrodex and triple seven.

38.00 for last jug of BH209 they had in town . They are not going to get anymore . Its 24.00 for 777 ( $ 14.00 dollars cheaper ) and i can find it at every gun shop . Man , for the price i pay for 777 its like buying two and getting the third one free , but cheaper , compared to BH209 .

Facts Continued

I use a Non-BH209=Cheaper, powder to work up my loads at the range. And then fine tune with BH209=Black Gold.

That way I can still buy shoes and groceries for the family;)

Semi

This would SO work! I elect you as "our" community organizer for this grass roots effort;)


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Message sent

Give us the specifics on the confrontation Tom.... What happened?

I guess a lot of it is in your view point. For me with crud ring that I have with 777 I have to spend 5 minutes scrubbing and brushing between each shot. I will never shot that stuff again. Now Pyrodex is a good powder I used it for many years and still like it, and use it in some guns, it just takes a bit more to get the same results. I guess I am amazed at all the crying over a couple of dollars, if you don't like it you don't have to buy it, if you are not going to buy it why cry? Lee

You're right, I don't cry about it, I just don't use it ;D

Personally I've found the 25ACP conversion to fix the crud ring issue in every rifle I've tried it in, takes 30sec to swab and I typically wait longer to let the barrel cool anyways, and I found out that I prefer manipulating the 25ACPs more than the 209s with cold hands during the season anyways.

Nothing real bad at all. I was taking a look at the new Remington shotgun when a customer walked in. I listened to the whole conversation about 777 and BH209. When the owner was out of BH209 and the customer was pointed to powder valley the dispute began. The owner does have a point when powder is in stock. 777 cost $29.99 and BH209 cost $32.99. It's still more and you get more with 777. But i still prefer BH209. But when you look at online ordering 777 is way cheaper as you can see above.

Lee, it's not a couple dollars. It's several dollars. I just want everyone to understand the cost difference. The cost savings is around $150.00 bucks per case when buying a case of 10 bottles of 777. I spend the extra money because i like it and prefer it. But the guy who cant can buy bullets with the savings. ;)

CRYING !!!

$14.00 is More than a couple bucks , If you can CRY about the crud ring with 777 and how your never going to ever use it again ,i guess we can CRY about the price of BH209 !!

same here , the crud ring i barely noticeable !!

Or a guy could buy "New and Improved Knight Breech Plugs" with the extra money:p;)

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Lane, I just have to chuckle about all this, and you know why even though we don't mention it here. When it comes to prices especially. Lee

Grouse45

Thanks for pointing the $'s 'Facts' out... You have always been about savaing a ML shooter $'s in the long run and again this points the $'s you might save if you choose to do so. It is really all about 'choice.' I am one of the people that does not have the problems with T7 that others do so it really works for me here in Idaho.

I leave guns loaded the entire season, when I do shoot one for hunting season I run a couple of patches of windex dry rhe barrel treat it with a quality bore oil dry patch and reload. I do not really clean the bore until after hunting season... so as I have always said I shoot a semi-clean bore. Never had a problem with corrosion in the bore with T7. It is nothing like BP or Pyro...

I use Goex, last I bought was $11.55/pound...

same here !!

I find that one wet patch (spit) goes right through the crud ring . Never tried 777 with a 209 primer just the .25acp .

AA 5744... $19 for a true pound, 43.5 grains/shot equals 160 shots, which comes out to $0.12/shot, with all the advantages of BH209 (and let's face it, BH209 IS smokeless powder formulated for volumetric measure with BP powder measures). At $38 per 10oz, shooting about 70 grains/weight per shot, you get 62 shots out of a can costs you $0.61/shot, or five times as much.

Mike

You're right Grouse, the math just doesn't add up. BH is quite a bit more expensive per bottle. That's cold hard fact. I don't own a crono but from what I've read on here, the velocity is not much different so you're going to have to use the same amount of both.

I still shoot BH but no where near as much as 777. That being said I consider myself a hunter not a shooter so I don't shoot near as much as most of you guys.

As for the price, yes it's getting absurd. I'm lucky that I can get BH locally at Sportsmans for about $31. But I foresee a day not too far from now (and that day may have already came) when it will be $40 for me and I will probably stop buying it. BH is a little more accurate for me, but only about 1/2in difference. The deer/hogs/bear/elk/pronghorn I shoot won't notice that difference. At the range I like not having to swab. But it's been years since I've had to shoot a deer twice with a ML so I don't see the need.

I equate the price of BH to the price of Nosler/Barnes/Lehigh. FOR ME, they have crossed over a line of not being that much better to justify the price. My $0.02

Has anyone gotten a chemical analysis on BH and AA5744? Realizing that different shapes can give different volume makes me wonder about some things.

I gotcha. Thanks! :happy0001:

TNHagies
It is true that up to about 110 gr the velocity is the same or close to 777 FFF,it is also true that 120 gr is slightly past the point of how much 777 you can burn in the length barrels we have been using. That is not true of BH209 the limit that is set by how much you can burn is MUCH higher, there for the obtainable velocity is not limited to what you can get with 777. Lee

Lee

But somewhere in there you also have to calculate the ability of the bullet to handle the velocity - correct?

And since there are probably more people shooting some form of XTP or Hornady - the velocity thing sure could be a factor in bullet performance at the target - should say animal

It's funny. When I first started bow hunting many years ago, I had to pull 70 lbs, just because. My mentor that got me started in the sport used to say to me, "how far through the animal do you want that arrow to go?" All it took was a few deer kills at 15 yards and a few mid 20 degree days to understand what my buddy was trying to tell me.

I have never recovered an xtp being shot between 1600 and 1750fps in the few short yrs that I have been ML hunting. And the xtp has never let me down.

Jeeze no one is forcing you guys to buy it? Why the moaning and groaning? I will pay it for all reasons listed by ronlaughlin.

Well, for those of us that spend some time on the smokeless section of the forums it is not much of a problem.
Just to give an idea the XTP in 300 and 250 gr is widely use and liked as is the bonded SW and all the Barnes and Nosler partition and A frame bullets, I am surprised they have not found the Lehigh and Gold Bullets as they work fine at those velocities.
I guess I do not find it a problem as all the bullets I like for hunting are capable at higher speeds than we use with BH. The only one that shoots real well at those speeds and fragments if you push it to had are the standard SW and they are replaced by the FTX which is designed for those speeds and shoots the same as the SW. Lee

Really ??

No body is forcing you to read this thread either .

Cabelas dropped there price to 29.99 and they always have some kind of coupon out......

bp
 

Just curious. Why, in all this discussion is there no consideration of real BP, which is, especially when bought in bulk, cheaper than both BH209 and 777?
Pete

none has mentioned whitehots???

I find 777 much easier to clean up than BP/pyrodex. That's the primary reason I don't shoot it anymore.

Really? I have used both - and they both work - but have not noticed any big difference in clean up. And at $14 a pound for BP, even considering the volume differential, if I had to take a couple of extra patches, it'd still be worth it.
Since I have turned to flintlocks pretty much exclusively over the last few years 777 is no longer an option (unless I duplex).


Pete

My last trip to the range was the very first time i ever used 777 , i was very impressed . One wet patch (spit) and one dry patch was all it took to clean between shots and a very small crud ring and when i got home it cleaned up easier than BH209 . But i use the .25 acp BP and i had no carbon build up in the BP to deal with , When i used Pyrodex it took two wet patches both sides . BUT i do have to re-prime and clean the brass . No matter what powder we use its all good and i sure love this sport !! :party0005:

Pete D.

I would have to agree with Spaniel and Rob that T7 for myself is far easier to clean than the pyros or even real BP... but the biggest reason I prefer T7 it is far less corrosive than either of the other two.

For BP/pyrodex when I shot primarily a caplock, it was a minimum 15 minute exercise to get the gun clean enough to avoid corrosion in storage. Even then sometimes I found rust in my barrel. Perhaps my technique has gotten better as I've been shooting these guns many more years now, but it was relatively time-consuming and messier with solvents etc.

With 777, I run 3-4 water-soaked patches down the barrel, 2-3 dry ones (until they come back out totally dry), and a lightly oiled one. Done. It takes 2 minutes. The breech plug takes longer to remove and clean than the entire rest of the process.

Time is my most precious commodity. I can afford an extra $20 per year for the 3 canisters of powder I shoot if it saves several hours of cleaning time.

Additionally, real BP is hard to find in many areas. I don't shoot stuff I have to work to find nor do I buy in quantities large enough to pay hazmat.

yep
 

Yep. That sure is pretty efficient.
And you are right about BP being hard to find. Harder than ever. I do buy it in 25 pound lots which is convenient for me and keeps both the powder price down as well as the Hazmat fee.
It does take me longer to clean my old Lyman flint gun than you describe, I must admit. It takes me longer if I use 777, though, than you describe. Seven patches to a clean gun?? Good for you. I've never been able to do that, not with 777, Pyrodex , duplexes or straight BP. That GPR seems to hold on to the fouling.
After a session, I plug the touch hole with a toothpick. I've already run a scraper down the bore. I fill the barrel with warm soapy water and let it stand in a corner for a half hour. I go do something else. When I get back to it, I pour the water out and run a patch or two down to clean out the residue. Then I run dry patches until they come out dry and clean. That, though can easily take ten or twelve patches. Then I oil it and put it away.

On another note. I was rereading the posts in this thread.
The questions and comments about AA5744 caught my eye. I got the impression that some were making a connection between 5744 and MLers. I hope that I'm wrong in that.
I use 5744 for reduced loads in my .375 H&H and a .416 Rigby. It also has very effective applications as a propellant in any number of BP cartridges for someone who wants to duplicate BP loads.
It is NOT, however, nor was it ever intended as a BP substitute. It's a smokeless powder and should never be used in a ML firearm.

Pete

Pete D

There are more than a few muzzleloaders out there now that do shoot smokeless powder... But for the average ML shooter you are correct in your thoughts...

There is now a thread going around where a couple of very forward thinking people are taking a 45-70 rifle and converting the chamber to shoot as a ML - and shooting smokeless powders....

In fact if I could find a ruger #1 in a 45-70 caliber - i might be one of those people that might/maybe do the same thing.... Or even a Remington 700 - 45/70