Lehigh is improving the Savage.
06-19-2009 | 07:52 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,926
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From: Saxonburg Pa
Lehigh is improving the Savage.
I just started testing a new vent-liner this week. I was complaining about the cost of the longer life one's currently being sold. I was hoping Dave could make one better and more affordable for all to buy. So far in my testing the ventiliner is more accurate then the long life liners and the Savage liners. I have been comparing it to, Prbullets, RW'S, and Savages. WOW, i notice a huge difference in consistency and accuracy with the new liners so far. I hope to put pictures up tonight. I asked Lehigh to write some specs for the liners below.
The design goals for the new vent liner was to improve life, provide a more complete ignition, and reduce velocity variation. The Lehigh vent liner is made from a weapons grade alloy and heat treated in two proprietary vacuum hardening processes to provide a high core hardness and an additional case hardness to improve life. The flame channel geometry has been optimized to provide a more complete and cleaner ignition. The chamber surface was also redesigned to reduce blowback and gas cutting of the flame channel. Lastly, the parts are produced on precise cnc machines using a fully documented manufacturing process with a quality system in place. The standard Savage vent liners show significant variation from part to part that will result in users looking for optimum accuracy having to modify loads when changing vent liners.
The design goals for the new vent liner was to improve life, provide a more complete ignition, and reduce velocity variation. The Lehigh vent liner is made from a weapons grade alloy and heat treated in two proprietary vacuum hardening processes to provide a high core hardness and an additional case hardness to improve life. The flame channel geometry has been optimized to provide a more complete and cleaner ignition. The chamber surface was also redesigned to reduce blowback and gas cutting of the flame channel. Lastly, the parts are produced on precise cnc machines using a fully documented manufacturing process with a quality system in place. The standard Savage vent liners show significant variation from part to part that will result in users looking for optimum accuracy having to modify loads when changing vent liners.
06-19-2009 | 08:36 AM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,869
Likes: 0
From: Camp Lejeune, NC
RE: Lehigh is improving the Savage.
Interesting.... I'll definitely be anxiously awaiting the results of this and the breech plug for the Knight. It will be interesting to see how Lehigh is going to improve all these products that the actual manufacturers weren't able to improve.... Especially the Savage which I haven't heard a single complaint about.But then again, it is Lehigh and they can do anything. 
06-19-2009 | 08:56 AM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 11,703
Likes: 0
From: Idaho
RE: Lehigh is improving the Savage.
SWThomas
I really do not think it is a matter of the Savage or Knight being able to improve the products... but a problem of whether it was economically feasable to improve on themselves.
I Knight case - until the 25ACP and the Speed Breech it was an accepted fact that blow back was going to occur. With the 25acp which totally controlled blow back then TC trying to do the same thing with the Speed Breech we we were happy. Then throw in the problems that BH brought about - new BP's were needed TC did it with a Speed Breech, but, have you bought one of those lately... that added a hefty expense to the TC - who were locked in a very competitve battel with CVA to keep their prices down. Knight on the other hand was also in the process of changing the breech plug and the bolt to accomodate the new podwer and to reduce blow back, and from all reports it would have worked just fine... but enter a greater expense at doing so and again unable to compete with the foreign made prices of CVA/Traditions.
So certainly they had the abillty, but it came down could they afford to do it and be competitive?
In the Savage case, apparently you do not shoot a vent liner.... Savage recommends they be replaced every so many shots... I can not remember the exact numbers but it seems every 100 shots with smokeless and every 50 shots of BP. Not only that the size of the flash hole in a Savage Vent liner is in question and it erodes very quickly.
There are several people making after market vent liners for a Savage and it is a documented problem with the Savage, Randy Wakeman offers and upgrade, even Precision Rifle offers one - both thought to be superior to the Savage vent liners.
Having a more reliable vent liner that is more resistance to gas cutting is a desired feature.
So yes! the companies could do it also but for them it is a matter of buliding for the masses, economics and competition with foregn manufactures...
And one last thing you are not going to want to hear but yes! Tom is driving some of these projects as means of improving his shooting but also for me and other ML shooters that also try to get better. And yes! Lehigh is willing to listen and experiment with Tom to develope better possibly products for me and others... but, there really is nothing that says you have to take advantage of these upgrades or even the ones that Mike Bellum has produced for you... TC could have done it better also.
interesting to see how Lehigh is going to improve all these products that the actual manufacturers weren't able to improve.... Especially the Savage which I haven't heard a single complaint about.
I Knight case - until the 25ACP and the Speed Breech it was an accepted fact that blow back was going to occur. With the 25acp which totally controlled blow back then TC trying to do the same thing with the Speed Breech we we were happy. Then throw in the problems that BH brought about - new BP's were needed TC did it with a Speed Breech, but, have you bought one of those lately... that added a hefty expense to the TC - who were locked in a very competitve battel with CVA to keep their prices down. Knight on the other hand was also in the process of changing the breech plug and the bolt to accomodate the new podwer and to reduce blow back, and from all reports it would have worked just fine... but enter a greater expense at doing so and again unable to compete with the foreign made prices of CVA/Traditions.
So certainly they had the abillty, but it came down could they afford to do it and be competitive?
In the Savage case, apparently you do not shoot a vent liner.... Savage recommends they be replaced every so many shots... I can not remember the exact numbers but it seems every 100 shots with smokeless and every 50 shots of BP. Not only that the size of the flash hole in a Savage Vent liner is in question and it erodes very quickly.
There are several people making after market vent liners for a Savage and it is a documented problem with the Savage, Randy Wakeman offers and upgrade, even Precision Rifle offers one - both thought to be superior to the Savage vent liners.
Having a more reliable vent liner that is more resistance to gas cutting is a desired feature.
So yes! the companies could do it also but for them it is a matter of buliding for the masses, economics and competition with foregn manufactures...
And one last thing you are not going to want to hear but yes! Tom is driving some of these projects as means of improving his shooting but also for me and other ML shooters that also try to get better. And yes! Lehigh is willing to listen and experiment with Tom to develope better possibly products for me and others... but, there really is nothing that says you have to take advantage of these upgrades or even the ones that Mike Bellum has produced for you... TC could have done it better also.
06-19-2009 | 10:30 AM
#4
Thread Starter
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,926
Likes: 0
From: Saxonburg Pa
RE: Lehigh is improving the Savage.
ORIGINAL: sabotloader
SWThomas
I really do not think it is a matter of the Savage or Knight being able to improve the products... but a problem of whether it was economically feasable to improve on themselves.
I Knight case - until the 25ACP and the Speed Breech it was an accepted fact that blow back was going to occur. With the 25acp which totally controlled blow back then TC trying to do the same thing with the Speed Breech we we were happy. Then throw in the problems that BH brought about - new BP's were needed TC did it with a Speed Breech, but, have you bought one of those lately... that added a hefty expense to the TC - who were locked in a very competitve battel with CVA to keep their prices down. Knight on the other hand was also in the process of changing the breech plug and the bolt to accomodate the new podwer and to reduce blow back, and from all reports it would have worked just fine... but enter a greater expense at doing so and again unable to compete with the foreign made prices of CVA/Traditions.
So certainly they had the abillty, but it came down could they afford to do it and be competitive?
In the Savage case, apparently you do not shoot a vent liner.... Savage recommends they be replaced every so many shots... I can not remember the exact numbers but it seems every 100 shots with smokeless and every 50 shots of BP. Not only that the size of the flash hole in a Savage Vent liner is in question and it erodes very quickly.
There are several people making after market vent liners for a Savage and it is a documented problem with the Savage, Randy Wakeman offers and upgrade, even Precision Rifle offers one - both thought to be superior to the Savage vent liners.
Having a more reliable vent liner that is more resistance to gas cutting is a desired feature.
So yes! the companies could do it also but for them it is a matter of buliding for the masses, economics and competition with foregn manufactures...
And one last thing you are not going to want to hear but yes! Tom is driving some of these projects as means of improving his shooting but also for me and other ML shooters that also try to get better. And yes! Lehigh is willing to listen and experiment with Tom to develope better possibly products for me and others... but, there really is nothing that says you have to take advantage of these upgrades or even the ones that Mike Bellum has produced for you... TC could have done it better also.
SWThomas
interesting to see how Lehigh is going to improve all these products that the actual manufacturers weren't able to improve.... Especially the Savage which I haven't heard a single complaint about.
I Knight case - until the 25ACP and the Speed Breech it was an accepted fact that blow back was going to occur. With the 25acp which totally controlled blow back then TC trying to do the same thing with the Speed Breech we we were happy. Then throw in the problems that BH brought about - new BP's were needed TC did it with a Speed Breech, but, have you bought one of those lately... that added a hefty expense to the TC - who were locked in a very competitve battel with CVA to keep their prices down. Knight on the other hand was also in the process of changing the breech plug and the bolt to accomodate the new podwer and to reduce blow back, and from all reports it would have worked just fine... but enter a greater expense at doing so and again unable to compete with the foreign made prices of CVA/Traditions.
So certainly they had the abillty, but it came down could they afford to do it and be competitive?
In the Savage case, apparently you do not shoot a vent liner.... Savage recommends they be replaced every so many shots... I can not remember the exact numbers but it seems every 100 shots with smokeless and every 50 shots of BP. Not only that the size of the flash hole in a Savage Vent liner is in question and it erodes very quickly.
There are several people making after market vent liners for a Savage and it is a documented problem with the Savage, Randy Wakeman offers and upgrade, even Precision Rifle offers one - both thought to be superior to the Savage vent liners.
Having a more reliable vent liner that is more resistance to gas cutting is a desired feature.
So yes! the companies could do it also but for them it is a matter of buliding for the masses, economics and competition with foregn manufactures...
And one last thing you are not going to want to hear but yes! Tom is driving some of these projects as means of improving his shooting but also for me and other ML shooters that also try to get better. And yes! Lehigh is willing to listen and experiment with Tom to develope better possibly products for me and others... but, there really is nothing that says you have to take advantage of these upgrades or even the ones that Mike Bellum has produced for you... TC could have done it better also.
06-19-2009 | 12:09 PM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,869
Likes: 0
From: Camp Lejeune, NC
RE: Lehigh is improving the Savage.
So how would this affect any warranty claims if something needed to be repaired on a Savage ML? Would savage honor the warranty if this product had been used? I'm pretty sure they would have to prove the aftermarket part directly lead to the failure to deny a warranty claim, but you never know what certain companies will pull.
06-19-2009 | 03:50 PM
#7
Typical Buck
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
From: Nebraska
RE: Lehigh is improving the Savage.
It's my understanding that the ML-II is THE most modified smoke pole out there. Many folks re-barreling with Pac-Nor 45cal's and even the .410 and .400 barrels as well.
I'm sure these folks have thrown away any warranties they had, and never looked back
.
Here's a snippet from another forum where they speak of the mods being installed.....
(1SHOT1KILL speaking)
Savage ML II Custom Work
I'm sure these folks have thrown away any warranties they had, and never looked back
.Here's a snippet from another forum where they speak of the mods being installed.....
(1SHOT1KILL speaking)
Savage ML II Custom Work
I have done several Pac-Nor barrel jobs in the past couple years or so. Pac-Nor is an excellent barrel, in any caliber. I have done many McGowen .45 barrel jobs over the years, going back to 1991 as well. McGowen barrels is not owned by Harry McGowen any more, but has new owners have moved it to Montana, and upgraded to the latest and greatest barrel manufacturing equipment, but kept the name McGowen. They too are making excellent barrels.
Yes, I would absolutely recommend a Pac-Nor barrel. I do all kinds of work on Savage 10ML-II's to include .45 cal barrel jobs, bedding (including synthetic stocks), 3rd action screws, etc. I know the guy you are referring to, Rick Bibby. I have talked to several times on the phone, back before he ever started doing Savage 10ML-II modifications.
Yes, I would absolutely recommend a Pac-Nor barrel. I do all kinds of work on Savage 10ML-II's to include .45 cal barrel jobs, bedding (including synthetic stocks), 3rd action screws, etc. I know the guy you are referring to, Rick Bibby. I have talked to several times on the phone, back before he ever started doing Savage 10ML-II modifications.
