What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

I see and read people talking about fragmenting bullets. What is actually in that classification and why. Is a bullet that does not retain it's original weight considered a fragmenting bullet? Or to what weight can it loose and not be considered a fragmenting bullet?

I guess i have my own opinion on fragmenting bullets. A fragmenting bullet to me is a bullet that comes apart during penetration and has a wide variety of different weights when found.

Example: I have found 250grn XTP'S that weighed 150grns when recovered. I have found them that weighed 230grns. And i also have found one that weighed 90grns. I have found some at 138grns. My point is no real consistency.

Hornady 250grn SST'S same thing as the XTP'S as far as consistency. Hell, one time the bullet fragmented so bad, all i could find is pieces of it. No exit at all.

So these are examples of what i call a fragmenting bullet. Remember this is what i consider a fragmenting bullet. Only my opinion.

I have noticed a few people put Lehigh bullets in this same category as fragmenting bullets. At the end of the day, are they really? The Lehigh will for the most part be very consistent. I look at them more as a fracturing bullet.

The petals are going to shear off by design and cut and damage vital organs in the chest cavity. Some will even say fragment. That's okay, here's were i seperate the two. The 250grn Lehigh will then become a 175grn bullet that blows right thru the animal with know mushrooming/expansion or anything to slow it down. If needed, a blood trail for sure.

I think the 175grns is close to what it really is. The fact is, the Lehigh will alway's be consistent when the bullet exit's the animal. Are fragmenting bullets consistent? None that i ever shot anyway. This is my take and what i have found.

I do understand to some these are just Theories. To me these are real world in the field results. I have used alot of different bullets on game. I have also shot game with Lehigh's. And that's why Lehigh bullets to all are just theories right now. Nobody on these boards have shot game with then but me.:D

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

I guess that particular definition means different things to different people. To me it means a bullet that starts disintegrating on contact and gets very little penetration. To me to fragment is what a hand grenade designed to throw shrapnel does.
I also believe that if we as a group could agree on a set of definitions it would prevent some unnecessary misunderstandings.
I believe that it is difficult to determine what damage a bullet is doing or how deep it will penetrate by retained weight. I wish we had a system that we could use to catalog just exactly what a bulletwill do. Lee

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Grouse, before you introduced the group here to what a Lehigh bullet is, and most of all can do.. had someone tried to sell me a bullet that they told me was going to hit, penetrate, fragment, and then keep on going... I'd of smiled politely during their explanation, and then after they left, forgot about it. But the bullet you are shooting is different from what I consider a fragmented bullet.

When someone tells me their bullet fragmented, I think of a bullet that separated in an uneven, and inconsistent manner. Meaning this time the bullet might have retained half it's weight, and next time, three quarters, etc.. The Lehigh seem to fragment yes, but I would be interesting in what the weight of the main body of the bullet weighs after say five test bullets. So it looses its petals, but the main body is still there.

What I mean is some bullets will fragment. Now we have bullets that are meant to fragment in a controlled manner. That hog wound of yours, and the fact a hog shot TOO far back and should have been a nightmare to recover only going a few steps.. I am interested.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Grouse45

I personally think that a fragmenting bullet is a bullet that blows up at or right after contact.

i think the 'V-max' is a good example of a fragmenting bullet.

I shoot .17 HRM's at peepers they are loaded with a 17 grain Hornady 'V-Max' projectile - @ 2550 fps when the hit they blow up into pieces - very small pieces none of which resembles a bullet.

I would go along with Lee's description - I am shooting a pineapple grenade - you know what that is incorrect also the old pine apple grenade broke up most often uniformly - the new grenades are probably a better description of fragmenting....

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Multiple shots not needed is impressive. Here is a picture of two 250grn bullets recovered from a Hog. I was trying to find them to weigh them Of course i cant find them. I will post the weights another day.:D

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Grouse45

One thing a lot of do not take into account is the large meplat that the bulet has after it sheds it's petals.

I think most people recognize the success of the original 'Keith Nose' projectiles and even today in the flat nose of the Bull Shop Conicals. In one of my conversations with Bullshop Dan i once suggested that he change the nose to a 'round nose' to increase areodynamics and BC if the bullet. He said he could but the Bull Shop shooter would not buy it they want the broad flat nose on the bullet for the effect that it gave the bullet.

He (I think it was him) suggested a simple experiment get a bucket of water... Extend your fingers straight out from your hand and then with as much speed as you can muster stab the bucket of water... notice the movement of water. Now repeat the process except this time make a fist and hit the water.... notice the movement of the water.... and lastly again extend your fingers and slap the water.... again a lot of water movement but how much penetration.

The meplat of the bullet creates hydrostatic shock in liquid - I want as much Hydrostatic shock with penetration as I can get...

Just thinking out loud

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

I like this explanation. It seems to make a lot of sense.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Old/New

I should have added that ireally do not want that large meplat on the way to the target - I really would prefer a more steamlined bullet for BC (velocity and energy retention) but after the bullet enters the animal I want the large meplat to appear - but yet again not to large if it gets to big it will slow to fast - loose velocity and energy...

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Here's my take on it. When somethingbreaks off of a bullet it's a fragment of the bullet. So when anythingbreaks off, the bullet is fragmenting -whether intended in the bullet design or not.

Up until the Lehigh came along, about the only bullets designed to fragment (or in which fragmentation was at all desirable)were centerfire varmintbullets. The goal inthemanufacture of hunting bullets was controlled expansion with the least possible amount of fragmentation, or no expansion at all in the case of dangerous game bone busting solids which seldom fragment. About the only bullet I know of that achieved excellent expansion with almost zero fragmentation is the Barnes.

Now, along comes Lehigh with a new and unique concept in a hunting bullet - built in and controlled fragmentation. I say "controlled" because the key to such a concept is apredictable number and size of fragments. I don't know if they started out with that goal, but that seems to be what they ended up with. Based on the game-taking results Grouse reported it looks like a viable concept. But it's going to be awful hard to give up a lifetime of searching for the perfect mushroom. :D

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

So here's my take. It's semantics. Fracture, fragment, both mean coming apart. Yes, you can argue to what degree and with what consistency but it's coming apart. Sabotloader gives one extreme in the V-max, a truly horrific bullet on game (especially out of my 300WM at 3800fps!). While devastating on whatever it hits for the first foot or so, usually when I shoot a milk jug with them there is no exit hole, just a few shraphnel holes. Most other bullets fall in the middle with the Barnes probably being the only one to routinely average in the upper-90s of percent weight retained.

Honestly, I see zero advantage in the Leigh design conceptually. The petals that sheer off weigh just a few grains apiece and therefore have very limited energy to further penetrate on their own. I am curious if you hit the shoulder blade if they remain on the outside or sheer off inside -- that would be an interesting test shot to think about this fall when you hunt with them.

As for the large meplat argument, the necessary corrollary to that argument is the insinuation that conventional bullets lack such a thing. However, they do not, an opened mushroom is a large meplat! Also an insinuation in that argument is that mushrooming impedes penatration to the point that it comprimises penetration. Now I recently discussed with Sabotloader that I am concerned that this is the case with Barnes bullets, but I've go to tell you I've shot DOZENS of deer with Shockwaves at ranges from 15 to 338 yards and I can count on one hand the number that did not exit. So the argument is invalid on both the meplat and impeded penetration counts.

Now this doesn't mean that the Leigh is an inferior bullet -- they probably work about as well as anything else. There is more than one path to the same destination. Apparently I'm going to try some soon and I look forward to getting a look at them. Honestly I just think your arguments to elevate them above everything else are inflated.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Spaniel,
As far as the bullet being shot thru the shoulder it has already been done. The bullet went in the left shoulder and went thru the right shoulder sticking out the far hide. We didnt even need a knife to cut the bullet out, it was already halway out. This was at very close range. (20yds) We found four of the six petals in the chest cavity.

One thing is for sure, we all have different opinions on fragmenting bullets.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

No arguement at all. The people will determine that. And as we all know, you cant make everyone happy.:D

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Here's what Merriam-Webster has to say...





Main Entry:
1frag·ment
Pronunciation:
\ˈfrag-mənt\
Function:
noun[/i]
Etymology:
Middle English, from Latin fragmentum,[/i] from frangere[/i] to break — more at break
Date:
15th century
: a part broken off, detached, or incomplete
synonyms see part
[/align][/align][/align][/align][/align]Looks pretty black and white to me. Lehigh bullets most certainly are a fragmenting bullet no matter what.[/align]

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

This is a Gold Dot bullet that went through the off shoulder after passing through the ribsover the heart and through lungs of a 6 point buck it was pushed by 110gr and went about 4 inches into the dirt on the far side of the buck. it weights 157 gr and started out with 250 it droped that buck without a step ever being taken. Now if you want to call that fragmenting then you can say thats what I want. Since it lost almost 100gr I suppose that you could call it partial fragmenting. But it most certainly is not what some of us are calling fragmenting. Lee

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

This is not meant to a reply to just Lee, but a very interesting article about Lehigh Bullets in the Guns 2009 magazine Special Edition. So after reading that - I am even more enlightened... So now maybe they are not as unproven as I thought...

Here is a composite of just a few of the pics... These are 45-70 bullets shot from a high class 45-70 and with a heavier bullet than a ML would use 375 grains. They started with copper bullets then found that the brass bullets worked better.



Last little thing - I can not believe they call that animal an ANTELOPE..

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Thanks, that's nice to know.

My "inflated" comment may have appeared more crass in writing that it was intended, if so please revise interpretation. All I meant was I think that in real life the advantages don't live up to some of what you are proposing, not that you're purposely misrepresenting or something.

Sabotloader,

Thanks for the article, that was interesting. I think when you say they found the Leigh superior, it appears (if my squinting read enough of the fine print!) that it was in terms of penetration. Now on African game we're talking a whole other goal of bullet performance than whitetails! In Africa, it has long been recognized that with many of those big tough animals penetration is king (back to my position that goal #1 is deflate lungs with a hole of whatever caliber). As a result, solid or hard cast bullets have long ruled the African plains.

Here I could actually see a real advantage for the Leigh. You get a bullet with a better BC, but the tip then shears to give you the equivalent of a solid, providing maximum penetration. A copper would not shear and would hold together impeding penetration, and a mushrooming bullet would not necessarily penetrate far enough. So when you're shooting a Cape buffalo or an "antelope" on steroids, I'll buy the argument being sold.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

spaniel

When I read this article I really did not know about the 'African' experiance, what i did have was some information on 45-70 shooters using this bullet on American Bison, Moose, Bear and i assumed deer and elk but i did know of any specific information. This article was a real source of information, not necessarily the answer to all of my questions because I still have some... + I need to prove to myself what I think I know.

sorry about the squinting and I know what you mean but my computer skills and my skills for transferring information are not the best. I think you and I are on the same page - the brass core of the bullet may be a bit stonger than copper and does offer better pentration and possibly does less meat damage than a full mushroomed exiting bullet, which is a concern of mine.

And I THINK that is exactly what will/should happen. I really wish I had taken a picture of the last cow I took. When i opened the chest cavity it was totally nothing but dark red jello. There is no way the the Nosler hit all of the organs in there but each and everyone of them had turned to jello - hydrostatic shock

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Your computer skills are fine, blame the message board interface. ;)

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

sabotloader
I don't have any problem with Lehigh Bullets in fact I like to try everything. I just wish we could do something to all be on the same page. One of us says something and it means something different than what was meant to half the people that read it. We just don't need the misunderstandings caused by unnecessary misinterpretation.
Fact is I like the Lehigh bullets better than the Barns all copper because they will do the same job with out leaving copper in my barrel. For me personally it will come down to what shoots the best at long range, my choice for big game will be between the Nosler partition and the Lehigh, but for deer I will likely use the Gold Dot. Lee

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Lee

That really would be nice if we all spoke the same terms on some occasions, but each geographic area of the US and each state has a differen venaculars.... Very few speak/write in thsame terms. It might be better to wish that everything read should not considered in concrete and may not even be what you think it might be saying. Often a simple direct question about is mean might get a clearer answer. It happens to us all, I have been in classes in which the instuctor knows exactly what he is saying but the class often does not as he might be talking over their heads.... I am neither a ballistician (new word) nor a bullet maker - I can not use the correct terms and if I were the correct terms might not mean anything to you. Most of us, and not all of us, are just normal on the ground people trying to explain what the heck we are talking about in terms that mean something to us. And that term in your part of the world might mean something completly different.... tough problem...

And for me that fact had not even entered my mind...

And for me what you consider long range is out of my range and not necessary 80% of the time when I am hunting. 200 yards or there abouts is my absolute max with perfect conditions shooting a ML - shooting a CF that is a different story. Now the real fact, in the the 50 years I have been hunting in Idaho I can not even remember a handful of shots greater than 200 CF or ML. Even 100 yard shots are some what rare, I would bet the average shot might be 60-75 yards.

My choice has always been a Nosler, so much I would almost stake my life on them, but I have to say I want to at least try a Lehigh and see what I see. From that I will make other decisions.

For deer what could be wrong with the Gold Dot? it certainly is less expensive and I would bet on the norm it would be fine for elk also...

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Sabotloader,
As you can see he's not just a guy making bullets in his back yard. I believe 5,000 bullets shipped to the FBI yesterday.;)

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

I don't know if there is really one definition of a fragmenting bullet. One example that I can think of is the Glazer Safety Slug. It is a polimartipped bullet that has shot inside the bullet that are sealed in by the tip.It is designed to enter afew inches and and fragment. I believe they were designed for sky marshals. They do not usually exit the body but do devistatingdamage to the internal organs making them safer to use on airplains and crouded situations.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

The Glazer Safety Slug is also intended for home protection. Just in case you miss, it wont go through the wall and hit a family member or neighbor. Personally, I dont like to pick copper or lead or any other metal out of my game, especially when I am eating it. All the bullets I have sent into one type of medium or another shows me what I want in my ML. It wont be a jacketed bullet, that I know for sure.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

I posted the definition of fragment on page two. Any bullet that meets that definition is a fragmenting bullet.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

I agree.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

My thoughts are thatthe terms fragmenting and fragmentation sometimes get misused. A fragmenting bullet in my thoughts is a bullet that separates from its jacket or other wise looses a portion of its mass. A fragmentation bullet is used where limited penetration is needed or required. (like an Air Marshall or other law enforcement situation) Definately not a bullet designed for hunting.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Please excuse me for my ignorance but since the Barnes TMZ bullet is in a sabot, how can it leave copper fouling? I have squeezed off quite a few Barnes rounds and have never found any copper fouling in my ML. All the bullets I have fired through my Omegahave been either all copper or copper jacketed. I have not removed any lead or copper from my bore. I thought that one of the purposes of a sabot (besides the "forgiveness" it offers for anot so perfect bore) it is to protect the bore for exactly that, lead or copper fouling. Does the bullet seperate from the sabot in the barrel before it exits?

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Looks like people have different defintions for fragmention. Most bullets lose a portion of there weight upon striking game, but I dont consider that fragmenting unless they shed there core. I have shot a few deer where the bullet fragmented completely. When I found these deer the bullet pentrated the chest and then came to pieces. The internal damage was unbelivable, butwhat would have happened if the bullet had went thru the front shoulder first. Those deer might not have been found.What I want in a bullet is one that expands close to double its orignal diameter and passes completely thru. Most of my experience with fragmenting has come centerfire rifles. Until the last few years I have always used concials for muzzleloading, so there wasnt much to worry about fragmenation. Now I have beenusing powerbelts and shockwaves for the last couple of years. Took one with each, both were complete pass thru's. A person can't tell much about how a bullet performs on one or two heads of game with them, so I guess time will tell for me on the pb and sw.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Powerfisher

it looks like you are quoteing me as saying....

hope you check back and see that is not my statement...

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Yeah, it was posted by lemoyne. And it's wrong.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

: a part broken off, detached, or incomplete

I would hafto agree this is how we should look at fragmenting bullets. I'm not big on keeping bullets that are found but i have a few. I also got some help from some Barnes shooters.Bullets that weren't considered fragmenting bullets are now.

Example:

1- 275grn Parker BE, recovered bullet weight is 235grns
2- 195grn Knight Red Hot, 170grns recovered.
3- 175grn Knight red Hot, 167grns recovered
4- 300grn Barnes MZ Expander, 288grns

I'm going to get some more bullets this weekend. I do have a 300grn XTP that was recovered as well. It was 199grns out of a Boar. I think we all expected that. I will also say a Lehigh is a controlled fragmenting bullet.:D

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

I would definitely like to see pictures ofall those Barnes bullets that supposedly shed weight. You still have them right? And did you weigh each of them before you fired them? Or did you just go off what was on the package?

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Very good point. Barnes bullets are very inconsistent in weights. The best thing to do with them is weigh before shooting. Those numbers are based on what the package say's. I agree, those numbers are probably not accurate.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

It looks like we might be adding to our vocabulary, I like the "controlled fragmentation" it makes a lot of sense to say what you mean. Know we need to define one that blow totally like a varmint bullet or a PB that's pushed extremely hard, how about "total fragmentation" and what would you call a full metal jacket or a hard cast that showed no deformation? Lee

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

In my opinion you could have two categories. Controlled fragmentation or Fragmenting. A Barnes would be controlled, a SST would be fragmenting. This probably wont work either.:DEverybody finds way's to protect what they use. Let's just call them all fragmenting and go on to the next subject.;)

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Total Fragmenting sounds better, now thati read your post again.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

So you can't say whether or not they actually did shed any of their weight. Not saying that it's a good thing if Barnes' bullets are actually inconsistent in weight. How do you know this is so? Have you weighed brand new Barnes bullets before and discovered this? Just wondering....

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

I weighed many brand new Barnes bullets in the past. None in the last couple years. The last time was 300grn Barnes Originals. They varied by 3grns easily. So did Hornady as well.You obviously have found the same as i, or you wouldn't of made the comment about package weights. Inmost hunting situations it's in material.

The bullets were not weighed before hunting. So the recovered bullet weights are not accurate.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

A truly fragmenting bullet would be like a varmint bullet, coming apart in the animal. Other than a couple shed jackets, all my SWs have exited. So it's inaccurate to lump them with a varmint bullet.

Unless you've got a purpose-designed varmint bullet, virtually every ML bullet out there is controlled to variable extents in how much it fragments.

I would think it fair that a SST/SW, Barnes, etc may shed some weight but is not DESIGNED to fragment. Any bullet will fragment if you shoot it fast enough. Either by design or consequence of design, a Leigh is designed to shed a portion of its weight (and more or less stop at that) which is fairly unique, a Nosler Partition is the only other bullet I can think of with that degree of designed detention of the bullet base.

RE: What are fragmenting bullets to you?
 

Spaniel,
I cant argue what you are saying. Any SST that i did recover was far from a mushrooming bullet. But, like you stated they were moving pretty fast in my opinion. Between 2350 and 2400fps with smokeless powders.