SuperKirby

Wow, I haven't posted here for a long time.I miss it. In my opinion, if you put the bullet and the powder in seperately and do it from the wrong end, it's a muzzleloader. That said, I used to think the Savage not necessarily crossed the line, but it at least blurred it, and I thought the Electra was just a dumb idea. But I also haven't touched a gun since ML season last year. With two kids under 2 I just don't have the time to get out and shoot. And if I do, I'm probably not going to be able to get it cleaned the same day, so I'm not going to risk ruining my guns. So, if I had $600 to go buy a Savage right now, I would do it in a heartbeat. I miss shooting. That way I could go out and shoot, and if I couldn't get back to clean for a few days, it's ok. I guess what I'm saying is I see that every gun is not for everybody, but there's a niche for every gun, and for some people, the Savage or the Electra are the perfect gun, and for those people it allows them to further the shooting sport, and so it's ok.

I still think the Electra is a dumb idea though.

Vince

spaniel

While I'm pretty progressive in terms of the ranges I do most of my shooting at and pushing to get the most out of the equipment I do have, I do not have a Savage or Electra. If I were going to spend the money on a Savage, I would not do so unless I also was willing to put the money in to immediately convert it to .45 and go all the way. I just don't get very excited about the advantages of a factory Savage with smokeless. I don't know why, maybe I just like making smoke.

I really don't like it when the crowd gets devisive...traditional vs inline, smokeless vs not....I think there is plenty of room for everybody to draw their own lines and yet respect the right of everyone else to do likewise.

I really don't think smokeless would ever be a deciding factor in classifying MLs as FFL firearms. The reason they are not has more to do with the convenience factor of reloading -- the reason for the whole FFL thing goes back to Oswald and the Kennedy assasination, and the concern of controlling weapons likley to be used in crimes. Any ML, despite how good the ballistics can be, is a one-shot weapon in most crime scenarios. Smokeless or electronic ignition is insignificant in that perspective.

Now there is a law that I know is under consideration (or was?) in one of the eastern states to outlaw any weapon 50cal or larger. This would have included MLs, though the ignorant author of the law likely had no idea.

hunting junkie

To each his own is the way i look at it.I like the savage so i would no doubt get one,one day.As for the cva never.I would never trust something with a battery shot,for saftey reasons of it going off.On top of that the cva is outlawed in some states already.

rafsob

As others have stated, if hte bullet and powder go in the wrong way - it must be a muzzle stuffer. Now as to the Electra,The company came by our range one day and gave us a performance demo. My only problem was the diode. It took too long to recharge for the follow-up shot. They said they would work on it. If thye did, then it should work fine. If not, I canreload and shoot faster then that gun could recharge for another shot. 'Nough said.

DeerandbearhoG

As The proud owner of a savage I would never go back to shooting dirtburners again ,but to each his own. MLing isnt a hobby to me, I use my gun to wack game in slug zones and in ML sesason, its just a tool to me,so I dont "draw a line". why wouldnt someone want to carry the best, most effiecient gun they could get, when trying to fill a tag? I have absolutly no guilt for owning a more accurate, more powerful, less recoiling, cheaper shooting and much more dependable gun ,that I dont even have to clean! Besides it still takes just as long to load and its not like Im gonna take much longer shots than I could w/ a conv.ML or slug gun, so I dont see how anyone can say, its as dangerous as a centerfire which is a BS myth anyway. My savage isnt much differnet than a newer knight or TC, its just cleaner, doesnt shoot a white cloud out the barrel, and I KNOW its gonna go off, whats wrong w/ that ?

rjhans53

Dave, be careful if you start "playing with a savage" it adds to your already full fledged addiction known as muzzle loading. I'm off the opinion that if it loads from the muzzle and you are comfortable with your choice then it's ok. I had a whole paragraph that I just deleted because it all goes back to my underline text.

gleason.chapman

Adeer wacking tool, that is very efficient at what it does and you can see the game when you wack it and it is shootable in Shotgun areas, who wouldn't want one?Maybe price. I guess ifSavage made a 350 Savage and marketed a lot more (like TC)you would see a lot more of them. I think we are at the end of MLer performance wtih BDC scopes, BH power and 200g pointy bullets (I shoot 180g in my 30-06), you can shoot 250 yards, but most of use back east here know we shoot most of the time under 100 yards, very seldom 150 or longer. Any inline MLer sighted in 3" high at 100 with ANY bullet can get MPBR of 170 yard, which I claim is the effective range of my Savage or any inline or standard MLer with a standard non-BDCscope. So if you got $550 and wanna get into smokeless MLing the Savage is the cheapest option,there are a couple of other options, but they are more expensive and can't beat the Savage's out of the box1.5 guarantee.






As for the Electra, it is a MLer for sure, will you be able to get parts for it in 20 years? My gut is that it won't be a seller and therefore there will be parts problems with them in 20 years, so why invest in a "maybe" when you can buy a KNOWN like an Omega or a Triumph or an Accura and know that there will be parts around in 20 years. That is my take on the Electra, if pimers were $1 each, then I think the Electra would be a hit, but primers are $5 for 100, so no incentive to go Electra.
Chap

Mr.Flintlock

Well, here is my two cents worth. It is a little like television programs. I don' like a lot of the programs being aired today but I dont believe they should be taken off the air because some of them are offensive to me. I have enough sense to turn the channel when they come on.

Now, back to the B.P guns. I shoot, build and hunt with flintlock rifles and smooth bores. That is my choice but I have friends that hunt with the modern inlines as well as carterage guns. We hunt together and have a good time and I do not look down on them for their choice of sporting gear.

As for the CVA Electra ,I dohave some serious concerns for safety. Nowthink about it, With a convential muzzeloader or even an inline, would any ofyou prime it before loading powder and projectile? It seems to me that is exactly what you are doing when you load the CVA Electra. Your battery in in place waiting to create a spark to ignite the powder. I know there are safeties to prevent this from happening but safeties can and do sometimes fail.
Likewise, I would not place the safety on with a conventional gun and point it at something or someone I did not intend to shoot.

Thats just my ideas on the subjects.

driftrider

I think that Cayugad summed it up nicely.

I am a Savage 10ML-II shooter, and in terms of practical advantage when it comes to hunting, there is none with the Savage compared to any other muzzleloader.
It is still a muzzleloader, with all the practical drawbacks that entails.

My rifle loads from the front just like a Knight, T/C or CVA, it still uses loose powder (why no objection to pellets, as they allow faster reloading than loose powder does) that must be carefully dropped down the bore. I load my Savage just like anyone else loads their muzzleloader. I just don't have to swab between shots (but neither does Blackhorn 209 shooters, and that seems to be perfectly acceptable to people like the original poster). So what's my advantage AS IT APPLIES TO HUNTING?

NONE.

Smokeless powder gives the following benefits:

It doesn't require swabbing between shots. This is great at the range, but it the woods it doesn't matter since it's unlikely that any ML hunter will get an opportunity to reload before the deer are long gone. Also, every ML I've owned has always allowed me to reload at least once without swabbing no matter which powder was used.

It doesn't require hasty cleaning, attract moisture or corrode your rifle. Again, it's a nice thing when time doesn't allow you to run home and clean right away, but it offers no practical advantage when actually hunting.

It is FAR cheaper than the "acceptable" substitutes. 10 ounces of BH 209 (again, which is VERY similar to the properties of smokeless) costs roughly $30 and is good for roughly 65 shots if loaded to 100 grains BP equivalent by volume. One (true) pound of AA 5744 costs about $19, and is good for over 150 shots at the typical load of 45 grains. Again, this is not an advantage in the field, other than the lesser price encourages more practice and can make one a better shot.

Other advantages of smokeless are that it is far SAFER to handle than BP and most of the other volumetric subs because it does not explode when burned, and requires considerable ignition energy to initiate the decomposition reaction. BP and most subs require only a tiny spark, and will burn violently and/or detonate even when uncontained. When uncontained, smokeless powder burns slowly but intensely.

Using the Savage recommended loads, my muzzle velocities are, at most, about 100 fps higher than those achievable with the "acceptable" BP subs. 100 fps gives no practical advantage for range or killing power. Now, some Savage shooters have been known to experiment with very hot loads using powders not recommended by Savage, and have achieved some very high velocities, but they take their lives into their own hands when they do (and it's a testament to the strength of the Savage ML that very few accidents happen with these "hot rodders").

It takes me just as long to reload a followup shot as it does anyone else. Even with BP it's almost always possible to reload once without swabbing, so the no need to swab between shots advantage of smokeless is only practically evident at the range (where it makes shooting the Savage a REAL pleasure, instead of a chore).

My Savage shoots the same saboted bullets as any other ML can, so there is no advantage of more streamlined bullets or such. If I can shoot a bullet out of my Savage, so can anyone else with a .50cal ML.

People talk about how certain "BP subs" are "acceptable", but this is an ignorant statement at best (at worst it's plain stupid). Smokeless powder was developed in roughly the 1880's, long before anyone conceived of Pyrodex, which was the first so-called BP substitute marketed specifically to ML shooters as a volumetric equivalent to BP. Nitrocellulose based smokeless powder IS THE ORIGINAL BP SUBSTITUTE. If you know the history, that it the undeniable truth. Not many people shoot BP in their .45-70 or .45 Colt anymore, but both were originally BP cartridges. When smokeless powder became available, people started reloading their BP cartridges with it as a substitute for dirty BP. Today, over 100 years later, most people outside the "cowboy action" sport would conceive of shooting BP out of their Marlin or Ruger Blackhawk.

The point is that it's still a muzzleloader, with all the practical drawbacks in the field as any other. And now with BH 209 out, which has almost all the properties of smokeless other than the lack of smoke and the price, I really don't understand why the anti-smokeless crowd hasn't done away with their hypocricy and gone after it, too, since it shares almost all the properties that the anti-smokeless folks object to.

Here's my proposal. All those who want to shoot a slow-twist .58 cal flintlock with buckhorn sights, pure lead roundballs and real black powder, go for it. I don't even care if you dress up like Davy Crockett, with home-made buckskins and a coonskin cap to complete the effect. Enjoy yourself and rest assured that I will leave you to your preferred style of hunting. But at the same time, if I want to hunt with my Savage and smokeless powder, why don't you leave me alone and let me be? If the anti-gun crowd gets any law passed against ML's, it won't be because my Savage shoots smokeless powder, it'll be because a ML is a gun, which is what they hate and fear.

The only thing that worries me more than a bunch of idiot anti-gunners trying to take my rights away and/or ruining my preferred method of hunting, is when a bunch of idiot hypocritical hunters and ML shooters try to do it to me! [:@] I'm not infringing on your ability to enjoy your ML season by being in the woods with my Savage just because I have it loaded with smokeless powder. Would it make any difference if I had loaded it with BH 209 or Triple 7 to comparable velocities (which is certainly possible, since the Savage 10ML can be loaded with non-nitro powder as well)? Absolutely not! So why don't you stop trying to throw your fellow ML hunters under the bus just because you don't like the type of powder they shoot, especially when, for all practical purposes as it applies to hunting, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.


Mike

Screwbolts

I agree completely with driftrider!!

I made a comparable post a month or 2 ago.

This thread reminds me of the talk when Knight brought our there version of the inline. The inline wasn't a new design it was just an improvement on an earlier design.

I built my Smokeless powder Muzzle Loading rifle, and I rebuilt my .58 under hammer. I also have 3 side locks and a Knight T-bolt.

IMHO I like them all and feel that any bickering is only detrimental to the entire hunting Community.