Do Shockwaves expand?
 

This has come up several times over the past few months so I thought I would post this:


The top row is 200gr SWs, the bottom row is 240gr XTPs. All the deformed bullets were recovered in deer. The massively deformed SW to the left of the pristine example in the middle was shot at MV of 2100 fps (110gr 777) and impacted a large doe at 80 yards through both shoulders. As you can see, it opened almost flat under the far side skin while the lead exited in one piece through the skin leaving the jacket underneath. The less deformed bullet to the right was shot with the same load, more or less the same impact spot and recovery spot, but from 208 yards.

The XTP was shot from the same gun, same charge, and impacted a large doe through the shoulders at 75 yards. The bullet exited the far side and was found after tumbling in a thin layer of snow a few times maybe 40 yards beyond the deer.

What this tells me is that Shockwaves certainly do expand. These bullets did so shooting through shoulders over a WIDE velocity range as evidenced by the impact range difference of about 130 yards (208 - 80). Do they fragment? I argue this would indicate not. Even with an 80 yard shot that passed through about as much bone as any bullet will need to pass through, the lead did not separate until the jacket got caught under the offside skin. Clearly any easier path (through lungs, heart, ribs) would have resulted in a less aggressive expansion.

But will they open without hitting the shoulder? I argue the 208 yard example says they do. The impact velocity was MUCH lower that far out, yet the bullet was still very opened. A closer shot with much higher velocity would make up for hitting less bone in creating expansion.

I wish I had some non-shoulder shots to post but those are ALWAYS pass-thrus. And none of those deer have gone very far for me so it is hard to argue with the results.

Contrast this to the XTP. The front third of the bullet expanded with the base intact. But the front only expanded modestly over the bullet diameter. I do not have wound channel pictures but I can tell you a Shockwave wound channel is more impressive than what this XTP did. I shot the HTP (predecessor to the XTP) for years and the deer, on average, ran further than the ones I shoot with the SW.

I look at it this way. These Shockwaves expand well for me on deer over a wide velocity range and I have had excellent luck dropping them in their tracks or after only a few steps, even when I don't hit a shoulder. The XTP expanded only modestly at close range, would it have expanded at all at 200 yds? I doubt it. Deer are soft. I think the SW is a great DEER bullet, but the XTP would make the better elk/hog bullet of these two examples. I would not shoot an elk with the 200SW and expect it to perform as well as it does on deer. If I shot an elk in the shoulder at 50 yds with this SW there is a chance it would not penetrate adequately.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Good report spaniel.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Thanks for the info.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Great posting...thanks.

I see people all the time bad mouthing Shockwaves. I have seen the same expansion as you showed in the pictures and I have killed what I have shot at. With proper shot placement the animal you shoot will go down. I think most "bad" shots with ANY bullet will not put the animal down.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Great report.. I have wondered a lot about the shockwave because of some of the reports you read.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

The shock waves look alot like the hornady sst-ml bullets and as I just posted I hit a doe about 65 -75 yards away with 100 grains of pyro pellets and a 250 grain bullet. It went straight through the rib cage and made a hole about the size of a fifty cent piece gone in and slightly bigger exit hole. This tells me it expanded and stayed together.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

They are the same bullet actually, all manufactured by Hornaday but as SW by T/C with a different colored tip.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Thanks for the report. This has been a much-discussed topic for sure. I wonder, are there large differences between the types of SST/Shockwaves? For example, you and some other people have had very good luck with and speak highly of the .40 cal 200 grainers. However, most of the posts I've seen complaining about lack of expansion, lack of blood trails, etc. are about the .45 cal bullets, either 250 or 300 grain. I wonder if the bullets are made differently or are structurally different in some way. It would be interesting to find out...

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

I do not want to over-generalize so I will say that potentially, yes. To draw an analogy if you look at long range hunting forums the .308 vs .338 Sierra Matchkings have significantly different reputations when used on game.

I would say some of this stems from the fact that I bet the 250gr SW is used in the field 5 times as much as the 200gr...at least. Most people that I know that use SWs use the 250gr version because that is more similar in weight to the other options they are used to using (240-250gr is a VERY popular size range!). So you are going to hear more reports on them, good or bad.

I have not personally used the 250, neither of my guns would take them and at the time I don't believe the alternative sabots were available yet (at least I did not know about them so I fell in love with the 200gr instead). However, I have lots of acquaintances, good hunters and good shooters, that use the 250gr with much success. Once of them had a single instance where he double-lunged a doe at close range and she stayed on her feet quite a bit longer than he thought she would. But I had the same thing happen with a 300gr soft lead Keith Nose hollowpoint that practically took the lungs out the other side so I don't draw conclusions on either bullet off one animal!

I would be very interested in actual reports with some pictures on these failures of the 250gr. Were the bullets recovered non-expanded (I know that's asking a lot but if they really don't expand there should be some frontal non-exits or soemthing)? Was the animal recovered and it confirmed that the bullet "penciled through" with no evidence of expansion or was it an assumption as the deer ran off and the actual location of the hit never confirmed?

Sometimes I wonder if people's expectations of theentrance/exit woundsare not exaggerated. I don't get 2 inch exit wounds with the 200gr SW. It's certainly larger than the entrance hole (often hidden under the fur) but the internal damage, what really counts and caused in energy transfer not just bullet diameter, is what is more impressive. The only time I get really big exits is on those shoulder shots where the bullet islike .7-.9 inchacross when it exits.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Iuse them all the time and everthing I hit goes down without tracking no questions asked. I use the bonded type and all have been pass thrus.Those that claim these bullets are crap need to look at shot placement on the animal.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Go over to Cabelas and on the SW Product, read the 65 product reviews, here is the link:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat200005_TGP&id=0040853216233a&navCount=1 &podId=0040853&parentId=cat200005&mast erpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IJ&am p;rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat601233& amp;hasJS=true

here is one of the reviews:










Overall Rating:

1 out of 5 [/align]DON'T HUNT WITH, December 3, 2008
By Kushy from Fowlerville, MI
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"These bullets look great on paper, but they do not perform well on game at all. I shoot a Remington 700 ML with a 24 inch tube, 100 grains of 777 loose FFFG (1950 fps), and 777 primers. My friends shoot omegas with the same powder, but they use 120 grains of loose (2200 fps). We laid down over 10 deer last year at ranges of 25-191 yards. Not one of these bullets (SST/Shockwave) expanded. Some shots hit shoulder bone, while other busted thru ribs. Also, I personally field dressed each of these deer and was not impressed at all by the internal damage. My .357 magnum shooting handloaded 180 grain XTPs does more damage to a deer. These bullets simply do not expand when they hit; futhermore, the lack of expansion leads to extremely poor blood trails. I swithced to Barnes Expanders 250 grain this season and couldn't be happier. The group size is still about 2-3 inches at 150 yards and the expander only drops about 2 more inches at this range as compared to the Shockwave. My wife shot a buck with the Barnes Expander and we had an exit wound that was about 2 inches in diameter. The internal damage rivaled a 30-06 wound channel. She pulled the shot, which resulted in a high hit from a treestand, but that bullet blew part of the backstrap into the chest, detached a tenderloin, blew the liver in 2 pieces, tore a huge hole in the diaphram, and destroyed the back half of both lungs. Her buck dropped and never moved a muscle. I shot a doe with the same load and same stand last year with a Shockwave. My doe ran 50 yards, with no blood, and an exit wound the same size as the entrance. By the way, the distance was 30 yards on both deer, which means the impact velocity is around 1850ish. According to Barnes, the Expander will open down to velocities around 1100 FPS. Shockwaves are a target bullet and most target bullets are FMJs. After testing these in the field, I would rather hunt with a 400 grain solid."
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No Expansion, December 11, 2007
By Hammercl from Illinois
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"I used the 250 grain 50 cal. Shockwave Sabot this year in a CVA Electra for Deer Hunting in Illinois. I was using 150 grain of Triple 7 in the pellet form. The Sabot speed was right around 2,250 fps. I shot a (9) point Buck at 85 yards. The Sabot entered just behind the front left shoulder blade and travels completely through the entire inside of the buck exiting just in front of the right rear hip joint causing a lot of damage as it went through the stomach area of the deer but the Sabot did not expand at all. I was truly disappointed with the Sabot not expanding. Both the entrance and exit holes were the same diameter. I will be trying a different Sabot next year."


I think you know exactly how to use a SW and your doing shoulder shots which is exacly what they are designed for, these folks are not shooting shoulder shots and get some poor results.

Chap

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Here is the Midway link:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=488805

Here is some no so good expansion and long trailing jobs:

1)

[/align]Vince Stoyanoski of M, OK[/align]Date Posted: 11/3/2008[/align]Unfortunately I'm having to edit my previous post as it seems that T/C has changed something in their bullet. These bullets used to give good performance and tore up the insides, but this year out of 8 deer shot in our group with them, 6 were recoverd by us after leaving them sit for two hours and finishing them off with another load(they were still on their feet). Two of them were shot by other hunters a half mile away with perfectly placed shots through the vitals but nice clean holes in and out! The damage these bullets made were like they were hit with an arrow with a practice top. The only way to shoot the deer to get damage enough to drop them in a reasonable distance was to shoot them through the shoulder bone and spray bone fragments through the vital organs!! I'd give it zero stars now but that rating is not available. Gotta try to find a different load for next year now.[/align]
Was this review helpful? Yes| No
0 found it helpful | 1 did not[/align][/align]----------------------------------------[/align][/align]Wonder why this fellow wrote this, does he work for another ML bullet company? Most reports are great, but what do you do when you read the above? [/align][/align]Chap[/align][/align]

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

boys...why be in doubt? 300g xtp or gold dot....they are down!

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

They wanna shoot 230 yards MPBR with 200g SW. Chap

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

MOE-I shot 4 deer with 250gr SST.2 dropped 2 ran a long way. All were "good" shots. I went back to Noslers. 50%just don't cut it. Only my opinion based on my limited experience.

Charlie

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

This is what I will say about some of those reviews. I read Cabelas reviews a lot and sometime they are good and sometimes they amuse me.

1) One guy says the deer traveled 50 yards but he was not impressed with the damage. The deer traveled 50 YARDS. That is hardly a far run and perfectly acceptable. If you want them DRT every time, use artillery!!!

2) Another claims they don't expand, entrance and exit same size but good damage in between. #1, no bullet recovered so you can't say for sure it didn't expand (see my pic of XTP). #2, if there is good damage in between and the deer drops in short order, what's the problem??

3) Another claims they don't expand, pencil through, and they let SEVERAL deer go 2 hours before finishing off with another load (STILL ON FEET). Buddy, if your deer is still on its feet after 2 hours, YOU STINK, not the bullet. You did NOT shoot it in the heart or lungs. You gut shot it and expect an exploding bullet of some sort to make up for your p!$$ poor shooting ability. No deer shot through the lungs with ANYTHING will be alive after 2 hours. I can buy poor blood trails, but this is evidence of just bad shooting and I cannot blame the bullet. Fifty or so deer I've shot with this bullet, maybe 10-15 of them shoulder shots, the rest though the ribs/lungs and none made it more than 100 yards. If this 2 hour stuff was the norm with a lung shot I'd have seen it!


I posted 2 pics of bullets I was able to recover because I shot them through the shoulder. This is not reflective of the majority of the deer I shoot with the 200SW, which are shot lower through the ribs/lungs and exit every time yet drop DRT or within a short distance. Hard to recover such bullets downrange. No, I cannot post pictures showing them expanded but I have a lot of dead deer that couldn't tell the difference!

The wife is out of town unexpectedly so she can't stop me from trying to fill my last 2 doe tags tomorrow morning!! I'll see if I can gather some more evidence...I just loaded the long-range Omega with a 200SW and the X7 with a 300 bonded SW.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

+1
Yep, the search for the magic bullet that will turn a gut shot into a bang flop 100 percent of the time continues.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Spaniel, I agree with you assessment of the reviews. I also agree that SW is good bullet, but I would claim it is designed for long range shooting, not close back east in the wood 50 to 80 yard shots. Most guys have problems when the see theBDC scope, get a 250 sw and shoot it 50 yards ata deer and then because of smoke, not a poor hit can't find a blood trail. I just wanted to point out that there is a downside to SW, as evidenced by the reviews and some testimony of fellow members on this board.
Chap

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

I think you have to take some of those reviews with a grain of salt. Anyone can post those- they may be exaggerating, they may be flat-out lying, or they may be telling the truth. Who knows??? People are much more likely to blame the "bad bullet" than themselves for being a crappy shot. A deer shot through the heart/lungs with ANY .45 cal bullet, regardless of expansion, is not going to be alive 2 hours later as long as there was adequate penetration.

I do agree with Chap though, that the SST/SW is not designed for, or is necessary for eastern woods deer hunting, where the vast majority of deer are taken at ranges under 100 yards. Where it shines is long range shooting- situations where the terrain is open, you can't get very close, and it's not a big deal if the deer runs off 50 or 75 yards after the hit. Now in the thick stuff, I'd be using a hollow-point bullet that expands & penetrates well and leaves a good blood trail- i.e. Barnes Expanders or the like.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Go with a Barnes Expander or Nosler Partition bullet. They are not as expensive as you think. I have used the Barnes Expander TEZ a couple of times now and the result has been exceptional, damage and blood trail second to none. I have had no blood trail due to poor expansion with perfectly placed shots with other bullets. I shoot Shockwaves and Powerbelts at paper at the range.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

I have had excellant results with the SW myself, but I believe that there is one thing some people dont take into account; every bullet is designed to work at certain velocities, these people that are trying to shoot SW or SST bullets with less than 100 gr of BH or 777 or 110gr of RS need to use someting else.
When you use to light a load they wont work right, I shoot them at 2200fps and they do real well at that speed.
Maybe we shopd make up a list of bullets and those of us that actually do testing might put in the approx amate min and max.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

The thingI like about the Barnes Expander bullets is they work well over a very wide range of velocities. They will expand down to 1100 fps and will do the same at high velocity and not fragment. Here is a picture ofa bullet I shot a doe with at 100 yards. 100 grain 777 pellets, 250 grain Barnes TEZ. The mushroom is textbook. Blood trail was super easy to follow. Wound channel was enormous.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

don't want to ruffle any feathers ...but ...the HORNADY SST .250gr. and the T/C SHOCKWAVE .250 gr. are made by HORNADY ..both are fantastic shooters in my T/C ENCORE ..i shot 1 spike and 1 female this fall and both were hit through the heart ,both were complete pass-throughs ,both ran over 50 to 75 yards ..here comes the good part NO BLOOD TRAIL on both deer ...we had snow on the ground so tracking was easy [recovered both deer ] my parteners were not as lucky they lost 4 deers [NO BLOOD TRAIL] the snow had all melted ..we searched for 2 hours and never found them ...after doing some research on different forums i found what i was looking for ,something that will not waste good meat ..i know shot placement is of the utmost importance ..we all have scopes on our ML. ers ..from now on [BARNES SPIT-FIRE TMZ .250gr.]

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Chap,

Don't get me wrong, I do agree with you that the SW is probably not the best bullet out there if you know your shots are going to be under 100 yds. I'm sure a true hollowpoint design will, on average, lead to better blood trails (I'm not an XTP fan though, but a Barnes or Precision Rifle HP or Nosler).

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

As luck would have it I got more test results today:

Omega X7 launching a 300gr BONDED Shockwave with 120gr FFg 777; purposely avoided the shoulder blade for this test, shot behind it for a high lung hit at 81 yards:


The bullet hit no bone and very little tissue -- being high in the lungs there was minimal width to traverse, maybe 6-8 inches of hide, thin ribcage muscle and lung. That was it. Did the bullet expand? Well, I honestly doubt a huge amount as this is really a TOUGH bullet to be shooting at a deer (this gun was set up for elk) and it didn't have to go through much. You can see the holes in both lungs, one right in the center of the picture and the other off to the right.

Honestly this is about the least damage I have ever seen from a Shockwave. This does not surprise me as this bullet is a lot stouter than the 200gr version, which I'm sure opens much easier. Another reason I am comfortable with 200-250gr bullets on deer.

No massive trauma, no foot-wide wound channel. Damage was restricted to a 2-inch circle around the bullet's path. Typically with the 200gr there'd be 2-3 times as much damage. So I think this shows the 200gr opens better than the 300gr bonded on deer-sized game.

This is my point though. I purposely shot a hard bullet through an area unlikely to encourage massive bullet expansion -- but I poked both lungs, and she was DRT. If your deer are running off where you can't find time, I question the impact location. I could have seen this deer running 50-70 yds if it's been spooked when I shot but lung-shot deer don't go far in my experience.

I certainly agree there are better bullets for close-range-only shooting or situations where a good blood trail is a must. For example if I were hunting a field of goldenrod where they are impossible to follow/find without excellent blood. I don't think there's that big of a trade-off as one might think though.

I am always leery of over-expansion, I want an exit. I have a buddy who swears by the Barnes Expander too, and while I have never tried them in a ML I did try them in a shotgun and was turned off -- the 12ga bullets are bigger, so if you hit the shoulders you ruined half the deer and they rarely exited, which concerned me. This concern was borne out when I shot a small doe with one and the bullet exploded on the surface of the shoulder blade without penetrating. I've never heard of this in a ML but with so many options I could never get myself to try them.

Overall I think I'm a little cynical about the touted differences between different bullets and bullet designs. I've had good luck with SWs. I've tried soft lead hollowpoints when I needed the deer to go down DRT, and they actually ran further than a SW shot in the same place. I have not tried some of the newer designs but HTPs, XTPs, SWs, Keith Nose hollowpoints, QT, DCs, I could not tell the difference. Shoot them in both lungs, down they go. Shoot only one lung or the heart, they could go 150-200 yds. Shoot them anywhere else, anything from DRT to off to the races. I can see a pattern in the result by where I hit the deer, but not by the bullet.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

spaniel
I very much agree, bullet placement is what counts. I started out with PRB and have taken 52 deer that way and 1 elk and 2 bear and when you put a 54cal PRB where you are supposed to they don't go far. When we first started using inlines I used home cast lead bullets [flat nose 240 gr Keith 44cal] cast out of wheel weights and they did not hardly open at all, hit in the right place most went less than 100yds. Since I started using heavy loads about all have dropped or went less than 35 yards but part of the reason is SW and Gold Dot 250 gr Bullets.
I have come to the conclusion that some people don't even aim at the right place. Lee

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

a HEADS UP

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Two hours thru the lungs in never going to happen, the deer will be dead. Bingo on the Barnes Expanders.
Chap

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Bingo, you won't get that from the bullet manufacturers, they will say their bullet is "perfect" in all situations---like in when one of the TV Ad Greg Ritz of TCisMoose hunting with a SW and a BDC scope with a Pro Hunter. I think that is the wrong bullet and the wrong scope for the situation, which is usually dense woods with < 100 shot and big heavy animal. So a Nosler or a Barnes is the perfect bullet with this situation with a 3x9 scope.

I think that would be a good thing Lee. I agree with all you said.
Chap

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

The American Hunter ML Editor Bryce Towsley calls the Barnes MZ the perfect ML bullet, I agree with him for back east < 150 yardML hunting. Long Range Barnes TMZ, Barnes Origonal or 300g SW. Chap

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Good choice. Excellent bullet. Chap

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Speaking the truth may ruffle some feather, but the truth needs to be told. Only the truth will allow us to sort the marketing hype from the facts on proper useage of a bullet.

Chap

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Exactly. We (the board)don't recommend PowerBelt with BDC scope for open fields in the mid-west.
Chap

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Here is the Bass Pro site: http://reviews.basspro.com/2010/82231/reviews.htm














Overall Rating:

1 out of 5 [/align]Wonderful Bullet but NO BLOOD TRAIL, November 2, 2008
By ecAltus
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"There is no doubt that this is one of the most accurate black powder bullet I have ever shot threw my Thompson. But when it comes to the time after the shot on a deer there is no blood trail. Between me and my dad we have shot 3 doe with these bullets and found only one, only cause she dropped in her tracts, the other two ran off into cover. Found hair on both but there was no blood trail."




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0of1people found this review helpful.[/align]Share this Review: [/align]


Review4forThompson/Center Superglide Shock Wave Sabot Bullets








Overall Rating:

1 out of 5 [/align]never again, October 23, 2008
By tomcat75 from Lexington KY
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"as mentioned in all reviews this bullet is accurate as any other tno doubt. There is only one small problem. THE BULLET WILL NOT OPEN UP! My buddy shot a deer at 25 yds another at 87 yds and nothing, absolutely no blood trail. both deer were hit solid thru the lungs. I shot a deer at 153 yds went thru in front of shoulder broke a rib took both lungs took rib on the way out took shoulder and guess what? no blood no expansion. I found deers bed and only 2 drops of blood! The shot was low in the chest! with no expansion the wound just sealed up. Luckily I found the deer 2hrs 19 mins later almost 200 yds away from the hit.
Accurate yes, Reliable expansion? NO!"




What do you usually hunt?: Deer
How many times a year do you hunt on average?: 11+
Would you recommend this product as a gift?: No
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Share this Review: [/align][/align]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/align][/align]Chap[/align]

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Gut shot deer don't bleed well with anything except a 20mm cannon round. This is what I mean about these reviews.

If we're going to post reviews let's be fair with what is there:
"This is the first bullet that i used in my muzzleloader and this is the only bullet that i will use in my omega because on the second day of the youth season in ohio i shot a spike at 92 yards with this bullet. The bullet hit him in the heart and there was blood on the ground before he could even take a step forward, he only went 30 yards and the exit hole was the size of a golf ball."

I highly recomend these Sabots! Ive used them for a couple of years now. I took a 170 lb. 8 point whitetail deer this season, and at 70 yards with a clean lung shot, he dropped in his tracks, they truly deliver a SHOCKWAVE."

"I would recomend both the 250 & 300 Gr Shockwave Sabots. My son recently bagged a 10pt 180# buck with his T/C Endevor 50/209 using 250 Gr.sabot loaded with 150 gr. 777. It preformed well on a shoulder shot at 50 yards. I recently shot a Doe 120 # at 75 yards using my T/C Encore Pro Hunter 50/209 with 300 Gr.sabot loaded with 150gr Pyrodex. Doudle lung shot the deer went 20 Yards. Great preformance , with large exit hole. Maine"

For every post claiming they don't expand, there are more indicating they do fine. Overall rating is about the same as for the barnes, 4.2 vs 4.3. Perhaps this comes down to expectations? If you are expecting catastrophic destruction, you will be disappointed. I personally like being able to shoot a deer through some meat and not ruin the entire quarter, but if you feel that is how tough your deer is then by all means I agree a Barnes is a better choice though I have personal experience that prevents me from trusting them.

I don't want to come across as inflammatory Chap, but have you ever personally shot anything with a SW? Or are these reviews the place you are forming your opinion from? The reason I ask is I am willing to go to the trouble of posting pictures of actual SWs used to take game and even go out and specifically take a shot yesterday missing the shoulder so I could post the results and come here and share that and my experiences on over 50 deer taken with the SW. I'm here to ask questions about it and respond with details. Yet you seem much more convinced by third-hand reviews on Cabelas and Bass Pro Shops where we lack details, know nothing about the skill of the hunter, and can't ask for clarification.

If your mind is made up we can agree to respectfully disagree; I'm just curious what formed such a strong opinion for you, I've only been around here a year so perhaps I lack some history or something.

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Your correct on the lets be fair part, you have posted the "good things", I was posting the bad, so folks can make an independent judgement. So really you wanted people to post if they have shot and taken game with the SW---why don't youstart another thread then called "your experiences with taking game with the SW" and let folks post to that, ask what load and powder they were shooting so we get a good comparison. I have not taken game with SWs,but I do feel there are a lot of newbys that read these posts and they look for "confirmation" on their selection, if you see only good things, you will say "I made a good bullet choice", however lets say they are woods shooting with open sights back east here, so 80 yards is max expected shot, then I would recommend another bullet.
I don't want to start another bullet war like last year with on the Powerbelt, because some things get heated and personal and I value everyone's friendship on this board.I honestly value the collective wisdom of the board on all matter regarding MLer shooting, we on the board give our independent collective wisdom on a given subject and it is really great for everyone,also I value your wisdom and experience on the SW, since it is different from mine.

I do know this, my brother for 2 years after I went away from PB, would not listen to me on PBs. I told him to stop shooting the PBat 150g to drop his charge to 2 pelletsor get a different bullet. He like the easy loading and the 150g was the most accurate, and he shot a big buck on the shoulder at about 30 yards. He sent a bunch of hair, skin and bullet fragments to CVA with about 10 packages of Powerbelts and a very angry letter. He asked me for an easy loading bullet, I recommended the Harvester Saber tooth. He likes that bullet. He still shoots 150g of Pyrodex RS in his guns and doesn't change much, he bought 10 packages of 15 of the Harvester bullets, and still shoots them. He won't shoot a saboted bullet because he had to pound one down his bore the first time he tried them. He does shoot PRB in his FL so he knows about "just right tight".

I believe the same thing is true of the SW, you can use them for a long time and have good performance and good results, but then your gonna get a shoot thru the ribs and a small hole thru the lungs and your not going to get the animal. Just like your post with the bonded SW (way too tough for deer), I think the pencil hole thrualso happens with regular SWs when they hit between the ribs on entry, then you got a long trailing job, now add to that shoot in thick cover with a lot of smoke and you got a perfect setup for a non recovered deer. I think that happens to a lot of new MLer shooters who don't know what to expect from a MLer hit.

I like Lee's idea of putting out a "best performance velocity" and yardage range for a given bullet. I think the SW is an excellent long range bullet for the midwest and west and open field shootingbetween 100 and 200 yards. I think they are GREAT then and really nothing beats them on accuracy.
Chap

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Well guys, the objective viewpoint may eventually give some answers but I heard something that disturbed me on an other forum; if any of you have some info would you please share it.
According to what was said there has been a change in the Shock Waves they are supposed to have gone to a different plastic tip and thicker jacket and harder lead, now the ones I have were bought in large quantity for a couple dollars a box at an end of the year Walmart sale a couple years agoand the are almost to fragile are these newer ones going to be a problem ? Lee

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

Thank you for the clarification, Chap. I was trying to be careful not to start a "bullet war" either, which is why I chose my words carefully.

The reason I asked about trying them yourself is that while I would totally agree that it is important to point out the positives and negatives of any bullet/gun/equipment for new shooters, it is equally important to be fair and clarify whether you have gleaned this information for first-hand experience or second- or third-hand. With the way things change and things are lost as the story changes hands, I use a large grain of salt with any second- or third- hand information. I know you're still of the opinion that they can pencil through the ribs and such, and when I'm interpreting that it's important to know if this happened to you or it's off product reports etc. This is why although I don't personally use the Barnes MZ because of my personal experience with the shotgun version, I am very hesitant to tell people THEY should not be using the Barnes MZ because I have not personally tried and had the bad experience with that exact version of the bullet.

"I believe the same thing is true of the SW, you can use them for a long time and have good performance and good results, but then your gonna get a shoot thru the ribs and a small hole thru the lungs and your not going to get the animal. Just like your post with the bonded SW (way too tough for deer), I think the pencil hole thru also happens with regular SWs when they hit between the ribs on entry, then you got a long trailing job, now add to that shoot in thick cover with a lot of smoke and you got a perfect setup for a non recovered deer. I think that happens to a lot of new MLer shooters who don't know what to expect from a MLer hit."

Anything can happen. The longest run I ever had after a double-lung hit was a 300gr soft lead gaping hollowpoint. To be fair, as I noted in the post with the pic of the lungs, that was about the least damage I had ever seen from a SW. Typically they look a lot worse for wear but I never take pics. I will next time but that will have to wait a year!

I've got nothing more to share on this I guess, until next year when I get to do more "testing" ;)

Happy shooting, whatever you are flinging downrange...

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

I cannot speak for the heavier weights but it would not hurt the 200gr bullet to be a tad tougher. I would not worry until I saw the results on them. If you feel yours are "almost too fragile", I would think you may welcome the change.

I would hope they actually announce when they incorporate these changes. I get irate when manufacturers change things and don't announce it (they did it to the sabots once, it affected POI for me).

RE: Do Shockwaves expand?
 

I've killed several deer and an awful lot of hogs with the 250 grain SST/Shockwave.

Over90 percent of my SST/Shockwave kills have been bang flops. Every animal was recovered. Sometimes theyexit and sometimes they do not. Not to matter:Put the bullet in the right place and it will do its job.

The SST/Shockwave is one of the most popular bullets out there. Some of the same folks who are now saying thatthe regular Shockwaves do not expand were formerly saying that they come apart and do not penetrate.

Barnes muzzleloading bullets have a Cabela'srating of 86 percent with 66 reviews.

How would your favorite bullet make out in a Cabela's customer survey?

Anyone can go to the Cabela's website and cherrypick some adverse ratings comments to support his supposition that Shockwaves do not expand on deer sized game. Politicians in DC do this kind of stuff.

The vast majority of SST/Shockwave users are happy with that bullet.

Hornady SST bullets have a rating of 92% with 37 reviews. 92 percent of 37 US citizens cannot agree that the moon comes up at night.

T/C Shockwaves have a rating of 84 percent with 63 reviews.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?id=0020977215067a&navCount=1&podI d=0020977215067&parentId=cat200005&masterp athid=&navAction=jump&cmCat=MainCatcat2071 2-cat200005&catalogCode=IJ&rid=&parentTy pe=index&indexId=cat200005&hasJS=true

Shockwave Superglides has a rating of 88 percent with 63 reviews.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?id=0040853216233a&navCount=11&pod Id=0040853&parentId=cat200005&masterpathid =&navAction=jump&cmCat=MainCatcat20712-cat200005_TGP&catalogCode=IJ&rid=&pare ntType=index&indexId=cat200005&hasJS=true

Bonded Shockwavebullets do not have a good rating because THEY DO NOT expand on deer sized game. Bonded Shockwaves were T/Cs answer to the folks who claimed that the Shockwave fragmented and did not exit deer sized game. Read the comments on this one. Some guy lost two deer because he shot them wrong and/or did not look for his wounded deer.