Well, finally got out to do shooting today... I had a couple of objectives for this trip... I wanted to check the Knight shooting the .458's - it will be the elk gun this year. Also I wanted to shoot both T7-2f and BH-209 to compare velocities and POI... PLUS I really wanted just to shoot a bunch of shots at clay pigeons just for recreation and relaxation. I realy thought it was going to be a great day to get a bunch of shooting in... but it just kept getting hotter and hotter - so the recreation shooting went by the way side....

I did get the first two objectives in. Shooting through the chrono and checking the POI @ 100 yards. In the the testing phase I do think I learned something also. When you look at the target you will see that I am a bit right of center for the most part - but I refuse to adjust the scope until the weather cools into at least the mid 40's. I was sighted in last winter and was shooting really well so I'll wait for cooler weather to make any moves.

For myself I am pretty happy with this target although I guarantee there are better shooters out there than I and in the hands of the right person I know the gun would perform better. But all in all with a hunting load and a hunting charge - and somewhat unstable shooting bench - I think I'll take what I got.



First off - shot number 3 and 6 are operator error.... I can clearly remember thinking AH! dang it should not have gone off right then.

But as you look at the target and the veloities you can see there is about 100 fps boost with BH-209 but the POI remains close to the same. The loads were thrown on site with the same volume loader.

The next pictures even show ME more about the particular shooting trip....



I collected some of the sabots to visually inspect them... The missing petals are not a problem at all - as you can see the sabots had exited the projectile prior the petals coming off.

I should mention do not put to much stock in the condition of the FPJ's thay have been shot more than a couple of times....

Next look at the bottom cups - tht is really what I was interested in... The sabots shot with BH- the cups definitely look a little more taxed than the T7 cups.

Then look atthe primers... The primers shot with 120 gains of BH-209 were starting to push themselves out of the battery cups, while the primers shot with 120 grains of T7 remained as they when I pushed them in. My deduction, from what I am seeing here 120 grains of BH produces
greater pressure, heat, and pressure (velocity) than does a simular amount of T7. Each time I have shot BH - I had always felt that the barrels heated more than the heat of a simular load of T7. I am not sure that 100 fps is worth the added stress to the mechanical parts as the POI really does not move that much. I also now wonder if I increased the T7 to 130 grains would I pick up that extra 100 fps but - not burn up the stress the bottom of the sabot or push primers out of the battery cups. I think it is important to see that the whole 209 primer was not coming out of the FPJ - just the primer out of the battery cup.

Thinking to myself right now... do I really need to even worry about shooting a 120 grains of BH or that extra 100 fps. I have been shooting 110 grains in the Omega and Remington forever and it has worked very well even at extended ranges.

Here is a picture of the setup in the rock pit - not quite like a good solid bench - but it works for what I do... We do not have shooting ranges around here - nobody wants to pay the liability insurance...



It really was a good day - course any day you get out and shoot is good day....

mike

Well according to the double transducer strain gage the pressure peak is lower and longer. I have heard of these results in Knights before but have seen nothing like that in the Triumph or Omega. I wonder if it has something to do with the design? Lee

My testing indicates that you will gain an Extra 59fps by using the NFPJ, over the standard FPJ with concave face, and over my modified (Drilled out 5cm) FPJ Domed plug And thats using NEW Plastic Jackets only

Lee

I doubt that you would see the primers trying to squirt out in the Omega or Triumph because the breech block would hold all of that in place. In realityI don't think the the Knight Breech System qualifys for Western as a closed breech either. The Knight bolt really is nothing more than a falling hammer, there is nothing that locks the hammer in place - it is possible to push it back with pressure.

Also remember that I shot equivelent 100 grain loads of T7 and BH in my Model 97 White. Shooting 100, even 120 in it withT7 does not result in the whole primer or the even the primer coming out of the breech plug. But a 100 grains ofBH resulted in the primer cup being pushed back causing the hammer to go back plus the primer was shot completly out of the cup and not to be found in the gun anywhere. The Anvil of the primer was layingloose on the floor of the reciever. Again I attribute this to greater pressure or maybe pressure for a greater period of time -for that particular load (powder+projectile) than is created by T7. I also believe you can attribute that to the faster burning T7 - rises to peak and drops a whole lot quicker than BH which burns progressively and creates pressure for a longer period of time. And certainly the White breech system does not qualify for BH according the Western Standards.

My next experiment when I can find the time is to shoot is a comparision in the Remington 700ML- which I know will shoot BH - but is not a closed breech either. It will be safer than the Whitethough, because I have a copper weather shield on the bolt if the primer were to fly apart as it did in the White.

The other thing that makes think a bit, is the condition of the sabot cups - the BH certainly appears to stress them more than T7 - now is that stress because of pressure or heat??? or both - I certainly do not know.

Has anyone seen any CUP's measurements for Trail Boss as compared to BH. I know the BH information for cartridge shooting is now posted on Western... And I assume the inormation for Trail Boss is posted also - just have not had time to look. I wonder what that comparison might show.

http://www.blackhorn209.com/files/pdf/Black%20Horn%20Cartridge%20III.pdf
There is some pressure data but it relates to 45:70 & 45:120 ect.
It was published when they came out with BH209 that the peak pressure runs about 5% lower than 777; my strain gage testing agrees with that, even so the longer pressure peak causes more blow back because the pressure is up longer. The burning rate is so much different than TB that the ratio would be meaningless. Lee

Lee

See, I think that fits... but even so I think i would have to back down from 120 grains in the Knight to relieve some of the extended time pressure is applied

sabotloader
I am inclined to believe that it really is best to use BH with a closed breach. The way 777 works for you it really don't offer you much asadvantage as it does some one like me who had crudring to a point where it was a major problem. I could get the accuracy but it was a 10 minute job to get the barrel clean enough to be able to load it again; BH put the fun back in shooting for me, I have burned 5 can already. Lee

Good testing and nice shooting there... that powder is really pushing them big projectiles right along. That's a heck of a hunting load you have there.

Good information Mike. I like the BH 209 but I am not one of those guys that will says they will never shoot triple 7 again. If you are going to clean your gun right after shooting, the non corrosiveness makes no difference. For hunting thought it would be nice not to have to worry about cleaning sometimes. That thumbhole stock you bought sure looks nice on that MHC disc extreme.
Art

flounder33

Do not get me wrong I to like BH but it is just to expensive for me to shoot as much as I shoot, or use to shoot and hope to start shooting again, now that I have retired again - except I need to get through my football coaching assignment at the local school.

The advantages that you all are getting from BH are a non-factor for me because I do not get the "crud ring." Another thing and I may be wrong but so far it is working for me - the corrosivness that worries a lot of people with T7is not a concern. I shootthe rifle I am going to use prior to hunting season, maybe 3/5 times... swab the barrel with a couple of windex patches, couple of dry patches - and one lightly oiled Slip 2000 patch and it will remain that way all season until I shoot it again, then the sequence starts over again. At the end of the hunting season - January - I will remove the barreled action, the breech plug strip clean it.



I also bought a thumbhole for the Omega - I really never thought I would like a thumbhole - I am so old fashioned - but I really do like shooting the thumbhole - I'll let you know about hunting with it later in October.... I kept both regular stocks just in case...