Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Blackhorn 209 is both the most accurate and the fastest [in terms of bullet velocity that I have ever shoot in a muzzleloader; however that does not mean that it does not require certain things and first and formost is the sabot. Using my Triumph as an example it shoots Crush Ribs good with 777 but to get the best groups with BH209 it requires HPH24. If I can get it to post the picture is the second target I shot with BH it took me one and some thought to figure it out. If some one who could would post it for me on MM fourm I would appriciate it one of the fellows there is haveing a problem with BH and I think it is his sabot fit. Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Good info. I finally got my hands on some BH 209 and was planning on trying it today until I woke up and found my kitchen flooded from my hot water heater going out [:@]

I will remember to take many forms of sabots when I go. I really-really hope this stuff works like what I'm hearing... That group w/the24s looks great!

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

It seems to require just a bit snugger sabot than the other subs but when you get it right you can really tell. Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

do you think its the sabot style or snug fit. Ive got a new omega X7 thats got a real tight bore. The crushed ribs are about the only sabot I can load "without a hammer" Its good to start getting some info on the BH209 Good or bad Jay

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Wow Lee, was this at 100 yards? Man that is hitting. Beautiful. You must like it since you bought a case, nowI see why. Chap Gleason

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

burntmuch,If its that tight you should be all right if it loosens up after 3 or 4 hunderd shots you many need to use HPH24; thats where I am at.
gleason.chapman, 100yds on the Cleborne county club Range off a bench rest. tis amazing how much more shooting you get when all you have to do is load and shoot. I have been noticing that it dont heat the gun up near as fast as 777, which also helps I shot that one hole group with out any cooling time at all in 74 degrees. Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Beautiful 100 yard group all touching. I am liking what I am seeing, I wanna try some in my Omega, which shoots excellent. Where did you get your case of it? Chap

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

I got it from Graf & Sons by getting a case [10 cans] the hazmat went down to $2 a can, price was 29.95 +hazmat and shipping. Should last me a couple years I call and talked to the about shelf life and the said a few years was no problem. The 300gr Speer Gold Dots for the 454 shoul real good to but I think they might be a bit on the heavy duty side for deer but an elk tag now thats different.Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

I have shot about 30 –40 shot of BH209 and like it very well so far. IMO it is the sabot tightness in the bore. It does not have to be quite as tight as my smokeless Savage but I did get a missfire with BH209 and a real loose fit. I did this on purpose to see if it would fire.

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Good idea to try that. Do you have to compress the charge like you have to with the Savage? Do you have to use a Federal or Winchester Primer, like you do with the Savage? Do you think it will eat breech plugs at $28/plug like smokeless 4198 does with the Savage and Savage Ventliners?
Chap

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

I have 4 full boxes of the 300g Speer Gold Dots. I think I will give the exact same load a try in my Omega. I like the accuracy, the power seems to be there, only cost seems a bit high, like $20 too high since it is not a lb and you have to use aboutthe same amount in your gun as you do with 777.
Chap

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

I got my new Optima Pro last week and during a telephone conversation with sabotloader, he recommended I try BH209 so while I had him on the line, I went to midwayusa and placed an order for 4 containers of BH209 and some other stuff. Luckily, I had a friend that couldn't find any T-7 45cal pellets for his apex and offered to split the shipping and hazmat fee if I would add his stuff to the order. It's a little steep but I don't do much recreational shooting with that gun. My order should arrive today;).

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

I can get it here locally for $30 for 10 oz. And at 70 per shot (=100 by volume) it costs about .50 cents a shot for powder. It has shot 1-2” groups consistently for me with 250 SST with the low drag sabots. It also shot under 1” with my dad’s Optima with Barnes 250TMZ’s. I put a different nipple/breechplug on my daughters Traditions L-bolt last night and it shot about 1 ½” MOA. Leave the guns set for a week – no cleaning – first shot dead on.

Chap- I reminds me of 4759 or 5744, when you load there is no compression of the powder, the ramrod just feels like it hits bottom, just like the Savage. IMO I don’t think it will eat breech plugs.

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

This advice makes sense to me and is from a writer namedsemisane at a nother site:

tight, loose and snug are pretty subjective terms and could even be dependent on the arm strenght or height of the person loading the gun. I don't know of anywhere you can find pounds of pressure data.

Here's my personal guide.

- If I can seat the load with just my thumb and two fingers on the rod, it's too loose.

- If I can seat it with one long stroke and a firm one hand grip on the rod, it's probably going to shoot well.

- If I can seat it with one long stroke, but it takes both hands on the rod, it's probably going to be better. This is the fit I'm looking for.

- If it takes both hands on the rod and stop/start short stroke increments to get it down the bore, it might shoot well, but I won't bother with it.

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Buck Hunter 1, I can not give you PSI but on a strain gage it is just a bit more than Pyrodex, it has a peak pressure period about 25% longer though which makes for a nice vel. and great stability; but and there always seems to be one the tightness of the sabot and a certain amount of wad pressure seems to be necessary. Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

These things are good to know. I am liking it more and more from the experience you folks are sharing. This ML season I intend to use my Omega, but in Rifle season I will use my Savage. That will keep me in both camps. Gotta find some locally where I live. I like the leave the guns for a week and shoot dead on, makes me really want to use the Omega in MLer season now. Wanna try this at my brother's house next weekend in PA, going up there turkey hunting, but will have afternoons free to do some shooting. Thanks for the report. Chap

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

You gave an excellent description of what I have been calling "Golilocks tight" sabots. Not pound them down or force them down, butpush them downwith a good amount of force. With a Savage smokeless, this is #1 accuracy problem and #1 misfire problem for most shooters. Will also be the #1 problem with Blackhorn I believe, since it appears from all description to be "smokeless power" with some smoke to make things legal. Sounds like a great product, we will see if it takes off like 777 did to pyrodex.
Chap Gleason

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Are you saying that basically if the powder is not compressed, it will missfire/hangfire?

That does not bode well for conicals, since they are usually not very tighly fitted.

Would sure like to find a way to use it in Colorado this fall.

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Exactly, Another sabot powder.

You guys really shouldnt refer to it as smoke less, Next thing you know, states will be calling it a smokeless sub and ban it from black powder season.

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

txhunter58, no that is not what I mean; most all subs require some seating force the important thing is to get it the same all the time, I have never had a miss or hang fire with it, but to shoot with one hole accuracy at 100yds it takes a certain tightness of sabot and to be firmly seated on the powder.

frontier gander, you are right, first off it is not smokeless it does smoke and it is not made from either of the two basic components used to make smokeless, I do believe it might be progressive and it does have quite a bit more potential enegry than the othe subs except maybe 777-FFF which is close to equal, according to the strain gage the pressure is only a bit more than Pyrodex and less than 777 by around 5-10 percent.
I am thinking of shooting it in my Renagade they say not but thats likely because of possable ignition problems with a mag large rifle in one of those old screw top fireing pin nipples it worked fine for a few test shots. Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Hard to ignite powders like smokeless will and Blackhorn is a lot like smokeless, so yes if not compressed tightly it will hangfire. Agree, it would not be the best powder for conicals. In fact if you read the brochure here:

http://www.blackhorn209.com/pdf/brochure.pdf

you will see this which leads me to believe that conicals will not shoot well with Blackhorn. Chap

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Has any one ever tried the red high pressure[Crush Rib]sabot with BH209? Looks like it might be OK.Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

The easy fix to using conicals with BH209 is to pack the powder slightly with a fiber base wad, then seat the bullet tight against the wad. I have ALWAYS gotten more consistant velocity and accuracy with any powder and conicals with base wads.

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Sounds reasonable I have all ways gotten more consistant results with a wad too.

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Toby Bridges just wrote about using the red crush ribs in his knight and has great one hole groups with harvester 300gr pt golds.

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Tried it wont work in my Triumph, but I get really good groups with SW[all] and with HPH24 and the 250 and 300gr Gold Dots. going to try the 250 and 260 gr XTP and Speer next.

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

I have shot another can of powder now and have learned a few things. it prefers the same bullets this particular gun always has, the Red Crush Rib sabot that was to tight and would not group before still wont the best it would do is 3 " and it is tighter than the HPH 24 which shoots one hole groups with 250gr Gold Dot and I have not found any other load that shoots 1/2 inch groups like 110gr of BH and the 24 sabot with a 250 GD. Most groups run 1 to 2 inches with the exception of SW and GD it likes allSW especally the 200 gr and gets 2200 fps as well as a one inch groupwith 120 gr since the pressure is close to the same as Pyrodex I am thinking about taking the load up a bit. Any thoughts on that? I am more worried about how well the bullet will hold together than anything else it has work well for me on boar and deer at 2100 fps but I am not sure just how muchfaster I can push itwith out having it fragment.
In conclusion it appears to me that to tight a sabot or it just dont like Crush Ribs not sure which but the Crush Ribs shoot real well with 777 problem is I lapped the barrel a bit cause it was kind of tight just before the BH came. Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

lee
have you tried any of the barnes bullets in your tc? I'm wanting to shoot the tmz but i don't know how it will load and shoot the bh209.

i believe i'm going with the harvester's in my knights. i'm going to compair that red crush rib to the black.

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Yes they shoot extremly well[3/4 inch group] when there is no wind and I am shooting well but they are overly expensive so I only shoot themrarely. The 250 gr Gold Dots shoot just as well so do the Shock Waves with BH 209 finding the right sabot seems to be the most important thing. Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

did you use the blue ezload sabots with the tmz?

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

No, I use the HPH24. But that really does not mean much as its hard to find two barrels the same. What really suprised me was it wont shoot the same sabots the gun likes with 777. I dont kow if its just my barrel or if BH dont work well with Crush Rib sabots. Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Shot the BH 209 today in my Encore .
Cleaning was aAMAZING , three wet patches and one dry, that's what i did between shots with pyrodex .I did not touch the barrel between shots and every shot loaded as easy as the first. No blow by , and the breech plug cleaned up spotless without solvent . I only shot at 50 yards . I definitely need a 1x scope . My bifoculs just don't cut it, I could see the target but not my sight or the sight and not the target . I only tried 95 grains of BH 209 and used the 300grain XTP , and Winchester primers .

The shot at 4 o'clock was all me , i jerked the trigger !!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/rgkempton/Muzzle%20loaders/209powder33.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v636/rgkempton/Muzzle%20loaders/209powder.jpg

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Sounds like you have the same age-eye problem I have, the scopes work fine the new single glass imaging sights wil do a good job if you dont want any magnification the red dots are ok except at dusk and dawn so they are not bad for target shooting but tricky for hunting. Let us know how you do with the BH 209. I just finished my second can have gotten groups from 1/2 inch to 3 inches @100 yds [with a scope and a bench] and found it seems critical to have the right sabot and that the gun still likes the same bullets but what I really like is getting rid of those flyiers that used to turn up with out reason some times and the fact you can go on a hunting trip and not have to clean every time you shoot it. Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

The machine shop at vocational school where I teach in the process of having students make sabot gauges. .503-.506 to push sabots through to test fit. Just like in my Savage the sabot fit is one of the keys. I had one set and it worked pretty well. I lent them to another guy. They are trying to run them on their CNC lathe using reamers. If it works out I should be able to make them available for cost of materials

Here is a pic

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o199/bowbender6/100_3724.jpg

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Glad to hear it did ok in an Encore. Anyone tried the Hornady SST's with the ez-load sabots yet?

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

bowbender6, Let us know, I have dig. calipers and a mic, that will measure in the 3/10,000 but plastic that gives is very difficult to measure accurately. I know there is some differances in molds and lots and I would like to be able to track the changes with less difficulty.

blackheel, I tried them in my Triumph and am going to try them in the Omega so far they do not work near as well with BH in my guns as HPH24, using a 250 Gold Dot in good conditions I have gotten several 1/2 inch groups out of 5 trys [now bad for me] but the ezloads give me a fairly cosistant 2"+. Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

I have 4 containers of BH209 and a brand new CVA Optima Pro that I plan to shoot tomorrow after church. I'll be shooting MMP-24s and a Nosler .451 260 grain HP. I have to "break in" the barrel first with some conicles and JB's bore paste. I can't wait to see what happens.

Ray

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

Bigtimer
A suggestion, try several different sabots at home with the breach plug out just push them through if they are easy to load they wont shoot good if they are so tight that they are difficult to load they proably wont shoot.
Its not that any particular sabot is better than any other but that barrels run from .496 to .504 and you have to match the thickness of the petals of the sabot to the barrel. The TC guns will usually work with a Crush Rib or a HPH24 [one or the other. the Harvester black short and long are close to the HPH24. The black Knight sabot or MMP 12 usually work in the Savage or the Knight or the Red Crush Rib. If it fits your gun try the blue 50/40 with a 200gr XTPbullet or the 200gr SW they have ahoot some amazing groups for me at 150 yds and are the flatest shooting bullet I have ever shoot in a muzzle loader. Lee

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

lemoyneHow come the 40cal 200 gr xtps shoot so much better that the gold dots. Are they longer

RE: Getting BH209 to shoot
 

So if they are too loose that won't shoot well and if they are too tight, they won't shoot at all?:( Sounds like I wasted $150.00 on powder.[:@] Sorry, I just don't quite understand what you are saying[:o].

God Bless,

Ray