gleason.chapman

The 300g Gold Dots shoot the Same as the XTPs for me in both my Knight Disc and TC Omega out to 100 yards--have not shot beyond that, shape is about the same and BC (I think) is about the same. Chap

Semisane

Hornady shows a BC of .180 for the 300 grain XTP. Speer shows .233 for the 300 Gold Dot. But my understanding of BCs is thatthey are something like smoke in the wind.

lemoyne

MichaelH, There is a differance, at least in my guns, The POI and group size and the load they shoot best with is different in both the Omega and the Triumph. Lee

gleason.chapman

I just remember they were close, I forgot to say I was shooting the XTP Mag, so Igoogled "XTP Mag Ballistic Coefficient" andthis shows the BC to be at .230 for the 300g XTP Mag:

http://www.geocities.com/stinkeypete2002/bullet2.html

So the Speer GD and the Hornady XTP Mag are pretty close to each other, which explains my POI comment of little difference.The lighter weightXTP don't nearly have theBC of the 300g, therfore better down range energy. Sorry for the confusion, my error.

The XTP Mags have a thicker jacket and therefore stay together better when hitting bone, also they can be shot a higher velocities, see this chart:
Chap




My opinion is that any bullet will do the job on "bow shots" right behind the front shoulder. If you can always put the bullet there, it doesn't matter what you shoot. However if the deer moves and you hit shoulder blade, then you want a solid penetrating bullet that expands--these are called balanced bullets, because the wound channel is large causing a quick death, hence the need for a thicker jacketed XTP (called the XTP Mag) or the Gold Dot or the Nosler Partition or the Barnes (any of them are good--PBX, MZ, TMZ, Barnes Origonals, .458 X bullet, etc). Accuracy is #1, then Penetration is #2, since you gotta get into the vitals, expansion is #3 to cause large wound channel and disrupt blood supply to brain and shoot thru is #4 for ease of tracking. Chap Gleason

sabotloader

Chap

Hornady lists the .452/300 XTP Mag @ .200 BC with a SD of .210
The regular .452/300 grain XTP is listed .180 BC - SD .210
The .430/300 XTP is listed @ .245


So the two 45 cal XTP's ought to fly about the same but the Speer should do a bit better especially at extended ranges.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=25a9cddeceb1bf6ea9f090505192f4b1&p age=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=c824f8a3cf4470d4 fa95f4c7b72957e0

But Mikes question had nothing to do with 300 grain he was asking about the comparison of the two 250's

The Hornady .452/250 grain XTP is listed as .146 BC SD .175
The Speer Gold Dot .452/250 has a BC of .165 SD .175

So again the Speer has a bit better BC, but in my shooting of both bullets I really do not know if you could really tell the difference in the POI of the two @ 100 yards.... Now Terminal Performance I would bet an arm and a leg that the bonded Speer Gold Dot will out perform the XTP... even the 300 grain XTP's.

Hope this helps a bit Mike

gleason.chapman

Mike, thanks on the BC of the Hornady, I just recall it was close to the Speer and I can't remember where I saw that. I agree in all categories the Speer is better, better bonding, better BC, about the same price, just a better bullet for about the same price. As for the 250's vs 300's,I know you like the 250s for deer and the 300 for elk, but my experience with 240 and 250g bullets on deer is thatthey don't always shoot thru--even Noslers. I don't have a lot of experience with 250g GD, so maybe that judgement doesn't hold up with them,however I like the bigger bullets for better penetration, and shoot thru, that is all. So you recommend 250's, I would say go300 for shoot thru. You really don't give up much in terms ofdrop between a 250 and a 300, but you gain so much better BC and penetration with the 300, that I believe it is worth it. That's all, I think the 300's in all bullets are the right weight---now I knowthat will start thebullet wars, but I gotta say what I believe is true, based on my experience. Over on Savage Forum they call bullet wars "releasing the goat", so maybe the goat is gonna get out there now.
Thank You Mike, Chap

sabotloader

Chap

That is really odd, unless the rages have been long, I can not remember when I did not get a pass thru with a Nosler 260 even at long range. I really want a pass thru but more importantly I want the Hydrostatic shock I get from the 260's in a whitetail. I can not vouch totally for the the Gold Dot either at this time - but from my tortue tests, Huntaway's - test of the 300 Gold Dot, Lee's testimony to their effectivness, and your accounts of the use of the 300 - if really believe they can be classed as a "poorman's Nosler".

As so many have said "what ever works for you"

mike

MichaelH

[/quote]

Thanks again guys. Everything that has been posted is full of info and valuable opinions! I have no doubt that the 300gr GD is a great load for any big game. I really wish that I could find some info like the Hornady chart above that shows how the 300s would perform if I were ever to drop down in load to say 85gr? My goal is to find a bullet that gives me the best chance of a pass through with good exspansion, but as stated, most if not all bullets should do that placed behind the shoulder, broadside. That's usually the shot I take. However, if it's a bad day to track a deer due to rain, terrain or hunting pressure, I would like to feel confident in a shoulder shot that won't fragment to the point that there's nothing left of it. I have also been busted by deer quartering towards me and don't have the chance of waiting for a broadside shot when they're 20yds in front of you. I tried searching for some GD charts, but wasn't successful.

Thanks,

Mike

gleason.chapman

Thanks again guys. Everything that has been posted is full of info and valuable opinions! I have no doubt that the 300gr GD is a great load for any big game. I really wish that I could find some info like the Hornady chart above that shows how the 300s would perform if I were ever to drop down in load to say 85gr? My goal is to find a bullet that gives me the best chance of a pass through with good exspansion, but as stated, most if not all bullets should do that placed behind the shoulder, broadside. That's usually the shot I take. However, if it's a bad day to track a deer due to rain, terrain or hunting pressure, I would like to feel confident in a shoulder shot that won't fragment to the point that there's nothing left of it. I have also been busted by deer quartering towards me and don't have the chance of waiting for a broadside shot when they're 20yds in front of you. I tried searching for some GD charts, but wasn't successful.

Thanks,

Mike
[/quote]

You will need to try your own experiment, something like "Frontier Gander" did with PBs. What he did was take 1 gallon milk jugs and fill them with Sand. They he shot 295g PB into them at various powder charges, 70, 80, 90, 100g of 777 or Pyrodex or Goex. Then he laid them out and you could see at like 90g that the PowerBelts started to pancake out and the edges fragment out. Now I think with the Hornady say 250g regular (not the mag) you will see a point where the jackets start to come off, with the gold dot, I do not believe you will see fragmentation. I believe at all power levels even up to 150g you will see the Gold Dots hold together and shoot thru like 3 jugs back to back. I would put 4 or 5 jugs on your first shot, because I used a 5 gallon bucket for my little experiment that I did with Nosler Partitions, XTPs and SW, and the Noslers and SW shot all the way thru the length of the 5 gallon bucket. Anyway with each bullet you should see some form of pattern emerging where they totally "pancake out" and start to break up, first at the edges and then at the core. As Craig Boddington says of "long shanked perfectly mushroomed balanced bullets", they are a "thing of beauty", exactly like the ones Semisane published. If the Gold Dots shoot thru 4 or 5 jugs of sand, perfectly mushroom at all speeds 75, 85, 95, 105, 115, 125, 135, 145g of 777, and I do think they will then I think you have a bullet that will hold up in the shoulder and oblique angle shots (quartering toward you at 20 yards). I shot a buck in 2006 with 100g of 777 with a 300g Nosler Partition, straight on in the brisket, I found the bullet just in front of the hind quarter of the deer under the skin and it had gone thru almost the whole length of the deer, perfectly mushroomed, now that is excellent bullet performance. I do believe, as does SabotLoader, that the Gold Dots will do that also. So do the same experiment with Hornady XTP and Gold Dot in either 250 or 300, then you will know for yourself. Shoot at about 25 to 30 yards at the jugs of sand. Any sand will work, I have even used potting soil mixed with sand.

Read this article:

http://www.snipersparadise.com/tsmag/July03/july03.htm

and look at this chart:
http://www.snipersparadise.com/tsmag/July03/TSD%20Wound%20Chart-MZ.xls

The guy that wrote this book, is a big XTP fan:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0873419510/qid=1114882877/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-8867395-7390420?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

This book is excellent for bullet theory "Rifle Bullets for the Hunter, A Definitive Study":
http://www.ramworks.net/estore.html
Bryce Towsley (MLing Editor of American Rifleman) wrote the chapter on MLing, he likes Large Frontal (meplat) 45/70 rifle bullets in a ML going slow for deep penetration, and he like Barnes bullets for distance:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/information/product-news/publication-mentions/breaking-out-of-the-mold/


Best wishes for your quest to know more about bullets and bullet performance.
Chap Gleason

PS. This is the Nosler that came out of the deer in 2006, I call that "beautiful".

gleason.chapman

Here is the PB thread of FG:

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2510086&mpage=1&key==

here isa picture from that thread showing PBs and the point at were they start to fragment.



Here is an excellent article on how a bullet kills in battle applied to MLing:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/terminal_performance_muzzleloading.htm

Best Wishes on your quest.
Chap