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American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
I have been thinking of different loads to try out of the new Extreme with the MHC fluted barrel. I noticed at the little gun shop they had American Pioneer Sticks and JSG Sticks. I just wondered if anyone has ever shot them out of their Knight rifles. If so, what kind of results did you have and what bullet were you shooting. They also had Triple Se7en pellets so I could go that route..
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Dave; In the past I uses to shoot the old Clean Shot out of my mk8, 100gr w/300gr knight flat nose w/good accuracy. also the 300gr barnes w/ the big hollowpoint. boomflopped a buck at about 90yds, the smoke cleared and no deer in sight. It was in a big tall weedfield, when I walked up to where I thought the deer was, there it was . Just behind the shoulder, never seen one that far away just disappear so fast! Can't see through the smoke! Fun ain't it!!
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
I've shot a lot of loose APP but never the sticks. Also I thought I would really try to make this Extreme the most max range rifle I own. I want to throw a Leupold scope on it, and really see it it will shoot 200 yards accurate. So I am ready to try all loads out there.. So its good to know that the powder does work in the Knights..
I have shot 80 grains in my LK-II and a XTP with good accuracy. I just have not pushed a rifle to the max in a long time. |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
the smoke cleared and no deer in sight Butt clench! when I walked up to where I thought the deer was, there it was Unclench!:D |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
I've had that feeling myself...
A worse one is shoot two deer (at the same time)during a blizzard with one bullet (so there is no way you can drag them out alone), field dress them, then walk two miles out of the forest in astraight lineto your truck and ATV so you can return and drag them out. Then when you come in on the old logging roads with the ATV(not the way you walked out mind you), you're not being able to find the deer because all the tracks in the old snow is covered. I know just how a mouse in a cage feels when the cat walk up and looks through the bars... frantic! I finally had to walk all the way back to the stand I shot them off, and track them back out to where I cleaned them, and look for ATV tracks. I then realized at one point I was not more then twenty five feet from them on the ATV, but the deer were covered by the blizzard, it was snowing that hard. That is the feeling of clenched!![:@] Unclenched!! :D |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Glad you didn't end up leaving a food cache for the coyotes.
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Dave; a buddy of mine shoots 100g app w/240gr powerbelt out of his encore .50. He has taken 3 bucks out to 160yds. 1 or 2 dropped on the spot, the other went about 100yds down a steep bank(hill) into what he calls the HOLE!! He's tough, works out all the time. He really likes that load and it works for him!
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
I would just once from all my "magnum" rifles like to find one that would shoot an actual magnum load. They constantly push on advertizments about the ability of their rifles to shoot magnum loads, yet with all my inlines I do not shoot a "magnum load." The closest I come is in my Knight Disc as I will shoot 120 grains of loose powder in that and that same amount in one of my fast twist GMB's.
Then I want to go to the hay field and really see what a "magnum" VS a standard rifle will do.. |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: cayugad I have been thinking of different loads to try out of the new Extreme with the MHC fluted barrel. I noticed at the little gun shop they had American Pioneer Sticks and JSG Sticks. I just wondered if anyone has ever shot them out of their Knight rifles. If so, what kind of results did you have and what bullet were you shooting. They also had Triple Se7en pellets so I could go that route.. Chap  |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman ORIGINAL: cayugad I have been thinking of different loads to try out of the new Extreme with the MHC fluted barrel. I noticed at the little gun shop they had American Pioneer Sticks and JSG Sticks. I just wondered if anyone has ever shot them out of their Knight rifles. If so, what kind of results did you have and what bullet were you shooting. They also had Triple Se7en pellets so I could go that route.. Chap
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman ORIGINAL: cayugad I have been thinking of different loads to try out of the new Extreme with the MHC fluted barrel. I noticed at the little gun shop they had American Pioneer Sticks and JSG Sticks. I just wondered if anyone has ever shot them out of their Knight rifles. If so, what kind of results did you have and what bullet were you shooting. They also had Triple Se7en pellets so I could go that route.. That charts that Bryce Towsley published in American hunter showed APP and JSG sticks has lowest velocity of any of the powders and highest standard deviation. Here is one of the charts. Chap
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Thanks Chap.. maybe I will get some of the Triple Se7en pellets to play with instead of the APP.
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: cayugad Thanks Chap.. maybe I will get some of the Triple Se7en pellets to play with instead of the APP. Also that new Black Horn powder is suppose to be more powerful than 777, that should get you to 200 yards. In my opinion, it is not so much powder that get you good numbers, but ballistic coefficient. If you shoot a Barnes Origonal 300g, which has a ballistic Coefficient of .291 and sight it in for 150 yards (or 1/2 high at 75 yards), here is your bullet drop over the first 200 yards. Pretty impressive with a Barnes Origonal in a .452 Crushed Rib sabot---several Savage shooters are turning now to that combo, since it is accurate, deadly and look at those flat numbers out to 225!! You could also try an MMP Orange Sabot or a 3 petal ez frm mmp, even though they are made for .452 bullets they will shoot a .458 bullet, and they may be the perfect combo for your gun. Chap Updated the graphic based on 2000 fps MV.  |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: cayugad I would just once from all my "magnum" rifles like to find one that would shoot an actual magnum load. They constantly push on advertizments about the ability of their rifles to shoot magnum loads, yet with all my inlines I do not shoot a "magnum load." The closest I come is in my Knight Disc as I will shoot 120 grains of loose powder in that and that same amount in one of my fast twist GMB's. Then I want to go to the hay field and really see what a "magnum" VS a standard rifle will do.. I must ask why pellets??? Just curious asI have found loose to be more consistent. I weigh my powder which helps to eek out every inch ofconsistency but in honesty my groups from volume vs weighed wouldn't matter on a deer sized target. Just appeals to my anal side;). I am not sure what you normally hunt or shoot in regards to distance but I can tell you from my experience its not the charge or MV that matters its knowing your gun/load/abilities and limitations. 200 yards is very doable with 100 gr of powder, just have to know how to compensate for the ballistical portions of each projectile to keep it in the ring. Practice is the only way and very important to shooting longer range is not practicing on picture perfect days. I shoot in every condition I expect to see in the field. Wind direction, speed, humidity, etc are important to note and see what happens with your POI. I am getting experience or knowledge but this is also where I put down my limitations. If the conditions aren't favorable I don't shoot.I practice at ranges much further then I'd ever shoot in the field, i find it makes me better at the "real hunting" ranges and learn more about myequipment and in terms of projectiles be it a bullet or arrow their trajectory curve. Honesty tomyself in abilities and equipment potentialplus utmost respect to the game defines where I put my upper limit at. I must say I feel uncomfortable postingthisas your experience and knowledge far eclipses mine in regards to muzzleloaders. Can't help but wonder what I'm missing or not accounting for???[&o] So, please take this asmerely thoughts from a longer range shooter and nothing more.:) Once again good luck. If you want magnum plus MV'scouldalways add a Savage to your collection. LOL:D |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Say Chap, that chart is showing a 3,000 fps muzzle velocity.
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: skeeter 7MM ORIGINAL: cayugad I would just once from all my "magnum" rifles like to find one that would shoot an actual magnum load. They constantly push on advertizments about the ability of their rifles to shoot magnum loads, yet with all my inlines I do not shoot a "magnum load." The closest I come is in my Knight Disc as I will shoot 120 grains of loose powder in that and that same amount in one of my fast twist GMB's. Then I want to go to the hay field and really see what a "magnum" VS a standard rifle will do.. I must ask why pellets??? Just curious asI have found loose to be more consistent. I weigh my powder which helps to eek out every inch ofconsistency but in honesty my groups from volume vs weighed wouldn't matter on a deer sized target. Just appeals to my anal side;). I am not sure what you normally hunt or shoot in regards to distance but I can tell you from my experience its not the charge or MV that matters its knowing your gun/load/abilities and limitations. 200 yards is very doable with 100 gr of powder, just have to know how to compensate for the ballistical portions of each projectile to keep it in the ring. Practice is the only way and very important to shooting longer range is not practicing on picture perfect days. I shoot in every condition I expect to see in the field. Wind direction, speed, humidity, etc are important to note and see what happens with your POI. I am getting experience or knowledge but this is also where I put down my limitations. If the conditions aren't favorable I don't shoot.I practice at ranges much further then I'd ever shoot in the field, i find it makes me better at the "real hunting" ranges and learn more about myequipment and in terms of projectiles be it a bullet or arrow their trajectory curve. Honesty tomyself in abilities and equipment potentialplus utmost respect to the game defines where I put my upper limit at. I must say I feel uncomfortable postingthisas your experience and knowledge far eclipses mine in regards to muzzleloaders. Can't help but wonder what I'm missing or not accounting for???[&o] So, please take this asmerely thoughts from a longer range shooter and nothing more.:) Once again good luck. If you want magnum plus MV'scouldalways add a Savage to your collection. LOL:D |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: Semisane Say Chap, that chart is showing a 3,000 fps muzzle velocity. Yards Path Velocity MV-1.5" 2000 fps 25 0.3"1936fps 50 1.6" 1873fps 75 2.2" 1811fps 100 2.2" 1751fps 125 1.5" 1693fps 200 -5.5 1526fps 225 -9.6 1474fps 250 -14.7 1424fps 275 -20.9 1376fps 300 -28.2 1331fps (sorry tried to get a screenshot but couldn't get it to work properly[:@]) Understandable, look forward to seeingand hearing theresults. Best of luck:) |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: Semisane Say Chap, that chart is showing a 3,000 fps muzzle velocity. |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: skeeter 7MM ORIGINAL: Semisane Say Chap, that chart is showing a 3,000 fps muzzle velocity. Yards Path Velocity MV-1.5" 2000 fps 25 0.3"1936fps 50 1.6" 1873fps 75 2.2" 1811fps 100 2.2" 1751fps 125 1.5" 1693fps 200 -5.5 1526fps 225 -9.6 1474fps 250 -14.7 1424fps 275 -20.9 1376fps 300 -28.2 1331fps (sorry tried to get a screenshot but couldn't get it to work properly[:@]) Understandable, look forward to seeingand hearing theresults. Best of luck:) |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
I have 2 long range hunters and have experiemented with different loads and powders. If you want to push the distance then what i have found to work the best is 777 loose, about 110 grains with a 280 grain harvester scorpion in a crushed rib sabot. I have tried the pellets and there is to many variables. Whether the pellet crushes or not, i always got a flyer with pellets..you just never know when its coming. I own 5 different knights and wouldnt trade them for anything. let me know how things work out..i read this forum alot but dont post much..
Thanks Jarrett |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Funny thing I have found is MY Remington 54cal.really liked 85gr. loose clean shot. When it came out as AAP it shot all over the place. :DGroups were so bad with any charge It wouldn't have suprized me to find out I killed some thing standing behind me. Other than AAP this rifle will group with about any thing you stuff down the barrel including the cat.
:)Al |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
thanks bo79 .. 280 grain Harvester Scorpion.. I have not came across them in my travels.. Something to watch for. Maybe I will just stick with the loose powder as I have plenty of it. Although pellets are fun to play with.
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
"I noticed at the little gun shop they had American Pioneer Sticks and JSG Sticks)
Both areproblematic. JSG sticks need to be crushed. Both powders are prone to wide swings in velocity and pressure that makeloads inconsistent. Both 777 and Pyrodex are very dirty powders. If you are after a clean burning powder look at JSG granular: It does take some work to develop a good load with it.After going througha couplepounds of JSG granular I have foundtwo loadings that give good accuracy with the 250 grain SST in my Encore: 90 grains and 120 grains. Have killed several deer and a lot of hogs with 90 grains of JSG and the 250 grain SST bullet. JSG granular likes a tight fitting sabot and has to be tamped really hard for best accuracy. Consistency in seating the sabot is everything with JSG ranular. Good luck with your new gun. |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Well a short update.. I got to the store in the big city, and stood there looking at their APP and JSG sticks and due to your posts, decided against it. I figured I will load loose, so I got a couple pounds of APP 2f. Then I saw they had bases for my Disc Extreme, so I got them. And they had a heck of a sale on Barnes Expander's in 250 grain. Each package came with ten Barnes expander's and sabots. So I bought them out. I got twelve packs of them. Then I got looking at scopes.. I looked at Nikons, Bushnell 3200, Leupolds, and got to thinking of all the money I had spent so far and had not even checked out of the store. I decided to leave for the day. And purchased all my goodies.
Then I went to a gun shop my friend owns.At his gun shop I had the chance to handle a CVA Electra. All kidding aside, this is one solid feeling rifle. It is well balanced, and had nice fiber optic sights. He then demonstrated to me how it works. You turn it on and let it charge. It took about 20 seconds. This this little red light flashes at you. The thumb safety which is nothing more then a on and off switch, does the rest. He said once it is fired, before you can load again, it will be charged and ready to fire. He also showed me how it sparks. That thing really throws a volt or two. $495.00 I think it was, but not positive on that. WE then went to the scope section of the store. He had a Nikon Omega he showed me in silver with the BDC. He offered it to me for $259.95 with free mounting of course. I told him I wanted to look the scope up and read about it first. So he started showing me some Leupold VII models, and a Nikon Monarch... and I fled the building before temptation got the better of me. So I resisted temptation on the scopes and only dropped well over a strong hundred or so on the other junk... |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Dave, just so you know, as one of your concerns has been eye relief... I just finished putting a 3200 on this Knight I got... Terry was standing here so I asked her to measure the eye relief. On 3 power it it was easily 4" and on 9" power she said 3.75". I had a good full clear picture for both measurments.
Bushnell states 3.3" on 9X and I have always thought it was more than that.... By the way - the Knight with scope weighs 9# 1 oz on the new digital scale I just bought, the White U-magwith scope 9# 3 oz, the Remington 700ml 9# 2 ozand the Omega with scope 8# 3 ozand oddly enough the Renegade with a GM-LRH-SS 7# 14oz -but no scope... |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
I was real impressed with the Nikon Omega and the bullet drop compensator. He did say that if the rifle does not shoot a magnum load, the BDC will not be on. And he mentioned that even at long ranges, you still have to check them because often they are not exactly on. He was telling me that when you sight in the cross hairs, then you work the next mark and so on, and memorize those other marks. He said most of them will get you out to 250 yards, and he does not suggest shooting that far anyway. It really seemed nice and clear.
I asked him if he liked Burris, since Natchez has a sale on them and I was surprised when he told me he refused to sell Burris in the store because they do not stand being their life time warranty. I asked his opinion on the Bushnell 3200 and he told me it was a real good scope. He had no problems with them. This guy shoots competition with a peep sight. You should see the peep sight he has on his target competition rifle. He was explainingto me, how you tune it to the size of the bulls eye, and distanceand then all you do is hold true center and let go... But the peep was like $1000.00 |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: falcon "I noticed at the little gun shop they had American Pioneer Sticks and JSG Sticks) Both areproblematic. JSG sticks need to be crushed. Both powders are prone to wide swings in velocity and pressure that makeloads inconsistent. Both 777 and Pyrodex are very dirty powders. If you are after a clean burning powder look at JSG granular: It does take some work to develop a good load with it.After going througha couplepounds of JSG granular I have foundtwo loadings that give good accuracy with the 250 grain SST in my Encore: 90 grains and 120 grains. Have killed several deer and a lot of hogs with 90 grains of JSG and the 250 grain SST bullet. JSG granular likes a tight fitting sabot and has to be tamped really hard for best accuracy. Consistency in seating the sabot is everything with JSG ranular. Good luck with your new gun. |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
chap,
I don't know it would save you on gas or not. but all the gun shop down this way has it in stock. the one I deal with all the time is the cheapest on it. I think maybe $26. I maybe thinking high. |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
cayugad
email me at [email protected] i think i can help you on that nikon scope. and share some little info on the scope. thanks Jarrett |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
One of the nastiest emails I ever recieved was from a Burris scope customer service rep.....lol..made the decision not to buy one of them real easy...dont know how the rest of them are as I may have gotten a bad one but...:D
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
I have shot most of all the black powder substitutes out there. APP is definitely the slowest by volume. The sticks are rectangular and subject to chipping. Stick to Triple 7 and Powerbelt bullets.
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
i have never had problems with the burris company. i have a burris on all my guns. i think they're abetter value then Leupold.
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Because the granulation of the loose FFgis so coarse, Iwouldn't use any APP besides theFFFg.
I noticed that the tables didn't list the APP FFFg at all. FWIW, it's probably more potent and consistent than FFgtoo. Does your rifle have the Knight Power Stem for a more efficient powder burn? http://www.knightrifles.com/productDetail.aspx?id=900042  |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: arcticap Because the granulation of the loose FFgis so coarse, Iwouldn't use any APP besides theFFFg. I noticed that the tables didn't list the APP FFFg at all. FWIW, it's probably more potent and consistent than FFgtoo. Does your rifle have the Knight Power Stem for a more efficient powder burn? http://www.knightrifles.com/productDetail.aspx?id=900042
I shot it the other day using FFg APP and was kind of surprised at how well it did. While it did not give me as tight a group as I demand, it gave me a starting point. I used 100 - 150 grains of the loose powder that that extreme fluted barrel is smooth. Very little recoil. It actually started shooting pretty good around 130 grains of APP and a Shockwave. But it was getting late in the day and I decided to stop and shoot a couple other rifles that day as well... So I do have some good experiences so far with APP. When I get a scope on the rifle I can then be sure that it is the rifle and not me. With fiber optic sights I admit I am not always 100% sure it is not me instead ofthe rifle. |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Cayagud,
How is the fouling with the APP? Is it as clean as they claim? |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: USNRETHunter Cayagud, How is the fouling with the APP? Is it as clean as they claim? |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Im gunna be trying the JSG in my omega X7 tomarrow (hopefully) with some .45 250xtp some 250hornadySSTs both in the crush ribs. I guess we,ll see How it goes. This is the second time Ive shot the X7 I dont need super high velocity 1700 to 1800 fps with tight little groups would suit me fine
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RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
It will be interesting to see what kind of results you will get.. I will be watching for your results.
I just ordered two boxes each of Speer Gold Dot in 250 & 300 grain that I want to try in a number of rifles.. one of them being the new Knight. All I have right now are nosler sabots and some crushed rib so I am going to try and figure out a good mix and match and place an order for them with MMP in the very near future. |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
ORIGINAL: burntmuch Im gunna be trying the JSG in my omega X7 tomarrow (hopefully) with some .45 250xtp some 250hornadySSTs both in the crush ribs. I guess we,ll see How it goes. This is the second time Ive shot the X7 I dont need super high velocity 1700 to 1800 fps with tight little groups would suit me fine  |
RE: American Pioneer Powder & Knight Rifles
Im gonna have to settle for 1500fps then. I dont wanna go to 150. This X7 is real light. Probably try different powders eventually. but Ive got the JSG on hand
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