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BULLET QUEST

Old 03-10-2008, 11:27 AM
  #1  
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Default BULLET QUEST

which shoots farther/ flatter in 50 cal kentucky- aheavy conical like a REAL or 177 grPRB? Will heavier conical w better B/C give LOT longer effective range than lighter PBR?
Also would a heavier 375 gr conical vs lighter 325 gr carry farther with about same powder charge because of momentum? tHAT IS CONTRARY TO MY EXPERIENCE W SMOKELESS RIFLE bullets Thanks experts!
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Old 03-10-2008, 12:13 PM
  #2  
Nontypical Buck
 
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Default RE: BULLET QUEST

ORIGINAL: english setter

which shoots farther/ flatter in 50 cal kentucky- aheavy conical like a REAL or 177 grPRB? Will heavier conical w better B/C give LOT longer effective range than lighter PBR?
Also would a heavier 375 gr conical vs lighter 325 gr carry farther with about same powder charge because of momentum? tHAT IS CONTRARY TO MY EXPERIENCE W SMOKELESS RIFLE bullets Thanks experts!
I don't think it is differet from "CF school", we all know their are two theories out there. Small and fast or Big and Slow for killing power.MLers started out Big and Slow, but are now getting to "small and fast". In general small and fast shoots flatter than big and slow, but under 100 yards in does not matter much.

Will a conical with better bc give lot longer effective range than light PRB, yes, and that is primarily why you shoot a conical for the greater down range energy. A patch round ball runs out of energy for a 50 calat about 70 yards, using the "magic 800foot pounds of energy rule", some will say 100 and yes they will kill at 100. However an arrow hasonly about 150 foot pounds of energy and still kills and so would a 500 fps round ball at 100 or 125 yards, so don't put much faith in that 800 foot lb rule.

Would a heavier 375g conical vs lighter 325 carrry further with about the same powder charge, no it would NOT carry as far with the same charge, but it would have more energy, thereforebetter able topenetrate into the vitals and killthe animal.

See this chart all with the same rifle same charge, but different BC of bullets:

http://www.prbullet.com/drop.htm

I think this is a good test, since they dropped the highest and lowest in a 5 shoot group, shot different groups over 3 days and averaged the results. You see the lighter bullets shot flatter. If you sight a ML rilfle in 3" high at 100 yards, your 3" low at about 150 to 175 with a 300g bullet. In general the heavier bullets penetrate better, for example the 250g bullets TENDto NOT shoot thru a deer but a 300g will almost always shoot thru a deer.Why does that 50g matter, more energy, more able to displace soft tissue, and more able to push past bone. Which would you rater get hit with a golf ball going 1000 fps, a base ball going 500 fps or a bowling ball giing 100 fps. All would kill you. The golf ball would shoot thru you, the base ball would bruse you and push in your chest. Thebowling ball would crush your chest. Mass matters, speed matters same as CF. Good book on this stuff including "balanced bullets" (which is basically controlled expansion without fragmentation but deep penetration, including shoot thru):

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=887436


Only $25 from MidwayUsa. Good deal, I bought mine for $35.

Chap Gleason




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Old 03-10-2008, 02:03 PM
  #3  
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Default RE: BULLET QUEST

Every thing Chap said is correct, but normally I do not use the same powder load; with PRB and a 1-48 or slower twist. For instance the 54 I built from scratch [1-70 twist]I load with a 535 PRB and a 1/8 inch lube soaked patch and 130 gr of RS for 2100+FPS [ 35.5 inch barrel] the iron sights were set up for the Hawaken and Mountain man matches at Friendship so they have 2 "0"s one at 100yds for normal shooting and one at 175 for long range I can hit with it where the rainbow trajectory of the 385 gr bullet with the 80 gr RS that it likes has more curve in the trajectory at 100yds than the PRB with the load I use does at 175 ydswhich makes it much easier to hit with and since I had taken both deer and bear [one well over 600 pounds] at 180 paces [we did not have lazer range finders then] with one shot bang flops I have to say a lot of people tend to overlook the actual capabilitys of the PRB. Lee
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Old 03-11-2008, 08:10 AM
  #4  
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Default RE: BULLET QUEST

That's quite a load there Lee. Up here at 6500 feet that would give a 6" PBR of over 150 yards and still have over 500 FPE at 175 yards. I think it would exceed the max rating powder wise for my 54 GPR though. I may have to try it with 120 and see what happens.

English Setter.
Here are a couple of loads for comparison between a 50 PRB and a 460 conical. They are from 2 different guns but give an idea of what they can do. Both are set up for a 6" Point Blank Range.

Name: .49 Cal, Round Ball, 177 grn 6" PBR 149 yards
Ballistic Coeff: 0.070
Bullet Weight: 177
Velocity: 2000
Target Distance: 128
Scope Height: 0.750
Temperature: 40
Altitude: 6500
Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -0.75 in 2000 fps 1572 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -0.75 in 0.00 in
25 yds 1.26 in 1784 fps 1251 fpe 0.040 sec 0.29 in -0.22 in 0.38 in
50 yds 2.57 in 1587 fps 990 fpe 0.085 sec 1.28 in 0.05 in 1.67 in
75 yds 3.03 in 1409 fps 780 fpe 0.134 sec 3.12 in 0.58 in 3.86 in
100 yds 2.38 in 1258 fps 622 fpe 0.191 sec 6.06 in 1.47 in 7.20 in
125 yds 0.35 in 1139 fps 510 fpe 0.254 sec 10.40 in 2.83 in 11.65 in
150 yds -3.36 in 1051 fps 434 fpe 0.322 sec 16.41 in 4.75 in 17.14 in
175 yds -8.98 in 987 fps 383 fpe 0.396 sec 24.33 in 7.32 in 23.50 in
200 yds -16.74 in 936 fps 344 fpe 0.474 sec 34.39 in 10.63 in 30.66 in
225 yds -26.78 in 893 fps 313 fpe 0.556 sec 46.72 in 14.74 in 38.50 in
250 yds -39.32 in 854 fps 287 fpe 0.642 sec 61.56 in 19.74 in 47.02 in

Name: 50 Cal, NoExcuses SWC, 460 grn 6" PBR 144 yards
Ballistic Coeff: 0.294
Bullet Weight: 460
Velocity: 1470
Target Distance: 121
Scope Height: 0.750
Temperature: 40
Altitude: 6500
Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -0.75 in 1470 fps 2207 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -0.75 in 0.00 in
25 yds 1.57 in 1429 fps 2086 fpe 0.052 sec 0.51 in -0.17 in 0.10 in
50 yds 2.82 in 1390 fps 1973 fpe 0.105 sec 2.09 in 0.24 in 0.52 in
75 yds 2.94 in 1353 fps 1869 fpe 0.160 sec 4.81 in 0.94 in 1.22 in
100 yds 1.86 in 1317 fps 1771 fpe 0.216 sec 8.72 in 1.98 in 2.17 in
125 yds -0.45 in 1282 fps 1679 fpe 0.274 sec 13.86 in 3.35 in 3.34 in
150 yds -4.07 in 1249 fps 1593 fpe 0.333 sec 20.30 in 5.09 in 4.76 in
175 yds -9.08 in 1218 fps 1515 fpe 0.394 sec 28.15 in 7.24 in 6.46 in
200 yds -15.59 in 1189 fps 1444 fpe 0.456 sec 37.49 in 9.82 in 8.47 in
225 yds -23.62 in 1162 fps 1378 fpe 0.520 sec 48.35 in 12.85 in 10.73 in
250 yds -33.26 in 1136 fps 1319 fpe 0.585 sec 60.82 in 16.35 in 13.23 in

You will notice the trajectory is very similar for the first 200 yards then the PRB starts to drop a bit faster.
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Old 03-11-2008, 09:31 AM
  #5  
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Default RE: BULLET QUEST

Whether you shoot roundball or conical, the most important factor is accuracy. You can't harvest what you can't hit. Some rifles will shoot the roundball just fine and not a conical at all. But if you rifle does shoot conicals well then a conical is a better choice, in terms of ballistics, at longer ranges. Even a 70 grain load behind a heavy conical still has some tremendous energy at 100 yards.
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Old 03-11-2008, 03:31 PM
  #6  
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Default RE: BULLET QUEST

I use conicals in both 45 cal. for hunting but with in the 175 yd range that I am willing to shoot hunting with either the 54 does better with a PRB, the ones I built have a very slow twist for good conical shooting any way. Just as an interesting point the proof test load I used on the 54s I built was 240 gr of powder[ RS] and 2 PRB of course they were shoot using remote control; So I worry about what load will shoot accurate more than what commercial manufacturers set there limits at, when you use the right kind of threads and the lenght of the breach plug is 1.5 times its width it will hold as much as a standard barrel, the real trick is getting the shoulders on the breach plug so exact that you dont get gas cutting with heavy loads. Do you have any idea what the recoil would be like with the kind of loads I use and a 560 gr 54 conical? I only weigh 200 pounds I dont even want to think about it. Lee
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Old 03-11-2008, 03:53 PM
  #7  
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Default RE: BULLET QUEST

It is amazing to look at the chart above and see how quickly the velocity drops off for the prb. At 150 yds almost half of the velocity is lost to wind resistance. Since energy is 1/2 Mass X Velocity Squared, only 1/4 of the energy is left. The conical has not even lost 1/5 of its V at 250 yds And consequently retains much more energy. Assuming that both loads were reasonably accurate, the vote goes to the conical.
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Old 03-11-2008, 03:57 PM
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Default RE: BULLET QUEST

a 177 grain roundball driven by 80 to 100 grains powder will kill at 100 yards easily. If you place your shot right through the lungs, that animal will be going down shortly.

If the kentucky you have have a slow 1:66 twist, PRB is what you'll be shooting.
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Old 03-11-2008, 04:33 PM
  #9  
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Default RE: BULLET QUEST

ORIGINAL: lemoyne

I use conicals in both 45 cal. for hunting but with in the 175 yd range that I am willing to shoot hunting with either the 54 does better with a PRB, the ones I built have a very slow twist for good conical shooting any way. Just as an interesting point the proof test load I used on the 54s I built was 240 gr of powder[ RS] and 2 PRB of course they were shoot using remote control; So I worry about what load will shoot accurate more than what commercial manufacturers set there limits at, when you use the right kind of threads and the lenght of the breach plug is 1.5 times its width it will hold as much as a standard barrel, the real trick is getting the shoulders on the breach plug so exact that you dont get gas cutting with heavy loads. Do you have any idea what the recoil would be like with the kind of loads I use and a 560 gr 54 conical? I only weigh 200 pounds I dont even want to think about it. Lee
Just a question from someone who don't know jack about building rifles; Why is there a breechplug at all in a traditional style barrel? Wouldn't be stronger if the steel was left whole in the breech rather than threading a bolt into it?
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Old 03-11-2008, 07:43 PM
  #10  
Giant Nontypical
 
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Default RE: BULLET QUEST

HuntAway, How would you put rifling in it if you did that?
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