trophy1

Peter, tried to e-mail you with this, but to no avail. Before I bought mine, I checked. It is legal in all states. Surprised me, too. It is WAY too expensive, feel a bit guilty for buying it. I just rationalize that some people buy toys like snowmobiles etc., I only bought this muzzleloader! Have a good weekend...I'm going out coyote hunting!
Donn

SteveBNy

Honest question - why would they not allow it?
And do we want them looking at every gun and making decisions individually?

Steve

frontier gander

will they shoot the 5 pellet loads with conicals?

skeeter 7MM

trophy1, how can the ultimate ML have 1000 fts at 500 yards vs the data I posted???? The ballistical data I gave was based on the exact same bullet (weight, diameter, SD and BC)you mention, the aboveMVis actually faster then that you posted with a 200gr pyro load of 2380fps.So in fact the 200gr pyro/300gr sst flung from the ultimate ML is even less then that I posted.The data wouldbe close and felt it may of interest to those following this post. It also illustrates my original point to a T that even with more powder and seemingly fast MV's for the class, ML's areis limited by the size and characteristic of the bullets.A rebutal tocleaver marketing used today, if you will, they still are limited in range and not even close to a CF(which is a good thing IMO). Lastely it is real time data, fired in the great outdoors from a hunting rifle by a hunter over his chrony.

Sorry I assume you had some working knowledge of ballistics, however the above demonstrates otherwise. I suppose the tip off should have been the comparison with a 300wby...!

dmurphy317

I have to agree with Skeeter on the energy figure. Here is an extention of the chart posted at the Ultimate web site. I had to adjust the temp and altitude to get a close match since their numbers did not work in my ballistic program. Mine doesn't do air density.

Name: 45 Cal, Fury, 275 grn
Ballistic Coeff: 0.300
Bullet Weight: 275
Velocity: 2300
Target Distance: 200
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 51
Altitude: 500
Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 2300 fps 3230 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in
25 yds 0.42 in 2232 fps 3041 fpe 0.033 sec 0.21 in -0.55 in 0.12 in
50 yds 1.90 in 2165 fps 2861 fpe 0.068 sec 0.86 in -0.38 in 0.41 in
75 yds 2.92 in 2099 fps 2689 fpe 0.103 sec 1.98 in -0.09 in 0.87 in
100 yds 3.46 in 2034 fps 2525 fpe 0.139 sec 3.58 in 0.34 in 1.49 in
125 yds 3.47 in 1970 fps 2369 fpe 0.176 sec 5.70 in 0.91 in 2.33 in
150 yds 2.95 in 1907 fps 2220 fpe 0.214 sec 8.35 in 1.63 in 3.31 in
175 yds 1.81 in 1846 fps 2080 fpe 0.254 sec 11.62 in 2.54 in 4.60 in
200 yds 0.00 in 1786 fps 1948 fpe 0.296 sec 15.57 in 3.66 in 6.18 in
225 yds -2.52 in 1728 fps 1823 fpe 0.339 sec 20.22 in 4.99 in 8.02 in
250 yds -5.77 in 1672 fps 1706 fpe 0.384 sec 25.60 in 6.55 in 10.12 in
275 yds -9.78 in 1616 fps 1595 fpe 0.429 sec 31.75 in 8.36 in 12.44 in
300 yds -14.57 in 1562 fps 1491 fpe 0.476 sec 38.67 in 10.43 in 14.98 in
325 yds -20.16 in 1510 fps 1392 fpe 0.525 sec 46.39 in 12.77 in 17.72 in
350 yds -26.81 in 1459 fps 1300 fpe 0.575 sec 55.18 in 15.47 in 20.87 in
375 yds -34.50 in 1411 fps 1216 fpe 0.627 sec 65.00 in 18.53 in 24.32 in
400 yds -43.36 in 1366 fps 1139 fpe 0.682 sec 75.99 in 21.98 in 28.14 in
425 yds -53.40 in 1322 fps 1067 fpe 0.738 sec 88.16 in 25.85 in 32.27 in
450 yds -64.62 in 1281 fps 1001 fpe 0.795 sec 101.52 in 30.14 in 36.67 in
475 yds -77.14 in 1241 fps 941 fpe 0.855 sec 116.17 in 34.89 in 41.36 in
500 yds -91.16 in 1205 fps 886 fpe 0.916 sec 132.33 in 40.17 in 46.42 in

As you can see the numbers on this chart accually have a bit more energy than the ones on the website at 400 yards (the max they go to despite the 500 yard claims). At 500 it is only 886 fpe and has dropped another 4 feet from 400 yards. BTW the 7" point blank range of this load is only 233 yards. That is easily matched by a 150gr load behind a 200gr Shockwave launched at around 2350 fps from many "lesser" muzzleloaders. The 300SST launched at the same speed (2300) and same conditions has 100 fp less energyand 14" more drop than the 275 at 500 yards.

Please don't take this as jumping on anyone, just pointing out some holes in the marketing hype. It doesn't matter what kind of gun you use to launch a bullet, once it leaves the muzzle it is the weight, BC and velocity that determine the trjectory and energy on the other end. While these figures show a load that would probably be fine for whitetails at 500 yards energy wise, I still think a drop of over 7 feet is a lot to compensate for even in perfect conditions. The vast majority of shooters are probably not cappable of that kind of shooting, even at the range.

trophy1

Skeeter, thanks for the clarification. I was just going by the info I have picked up from articles and such on this rifle. It looks from your numbers with your lighter bullet are not that far off on the foot pound claim, however. Given that the 300 grain retains better down range energy than a 275 (not allowing for Coeff. of course) I think the energy claims are pretty close...enough energy to anchor a deer.
As far as bullet drop, everyone I know uses rangefinders and M.dot type scopes, so as long as you know exact distances and all that goes with long range shooting. It should be possible to do it as proven by a number of people.
Again, I am not that knowledgable or that good a shot to shoot at a deer at that distance with any rifle. But some can do it consistantly. I would like to drop a deer at 300 yards with a ML. Again thanks for ballistic stuff! Donn

skeeter 7MM

trophy1, I think you are confusing the 2 data's gievn, mine was in fact with the 300gr SST you mention and dmurphy used a 275gr bullet in his anaology given through the ultimiate ML website. He does state that and mentions the fact the SST numbers are actually lower, in line with those I posted previously. Sorry but it is IMPOSSIBLE for a 300gr SST to retain 1000 ft.lbs at 500 yards at MV's posted here. Just so your clear I am not knocking any ML or person here, just putting up some numbers so othersmay beinformed with real facts vs marketing hype or spin. I know the first time I shot over a chrony I thought it was set up wrong...I couldn't believe what I thought it should be doing based on published number vs what it was actually clocking at through my bore. Want a reality check shoot through a chrony some time be it gun or bow... reduced many a shooter to red ears and even some to tears.

I have little doubt 700 - 800 ft/lbs will kill a deer...however I highly doubt that many could compensate for the drop or drift in huntingconditions with any reliabliity. Though this is only based on my experience, I am more then a few shots a year guy I am a member of our local range which is only 200 yards so being we are passionate about hunting we have a range setup that allows us to shoot safely to 700 yards with CF's. I limit my ML's to 300 yards as for me they are way to unpredictable past such a range based on the bricks they chuck! Ethics for me comes into play - one must know the limits of both themselves and the equipment.IE non ML related: Weshootour bows to 110 meters at an outdoor 3d course.Just because when conditions allow I hit the vitals more often the not doesn't make it a 110 weapon in my mind. I also have little doubt I could get the penetration needed to harvest a deer with this set up. However it is unethical IMHO asit is beyond the real limits of the equipment and if a small mis-calculation is made by the shooter the results are maginified emensely. Not to mention target rarily move, live animals do!! It is fun to play but when it comes to hunting I have to much love for the spoort and the game I pursue to breach my ethical codes. To each their own!

Sorry for the ramble,[&:]. Good and safe shooting/hunting

trophy1

Skeeter, Thanks again for the info. I feel better now. You, like me, know our limitaions and are we are ethical sportsmen. I got all of my stats from ultimates website www.ultimatefirearms.com, clicking on the ballistics chart once you get there. I believe their stats, showing 1467.6 ft lbs @300 yards with only a 275 gr. bullet. Sighted at a zero of 200 yards, they show a -14.6" drop at 300 yds. I shoot +3.75 at 100 Yds, dead nuts at 200 with the heavier 300 hornady. This is all I know to be true, but it seems to hold closeto their charts, so I tend to believe them. But I agree with you, most advertising hype is pretty much garbage.
For anyone interested, go to their website, go down to "Put Em in a Pile at a Quarter Mile", then click on"The Ultimate Precision Muzzleloader" published in Precision Shooting Magazine. I think you accuracy guys would enjoy that article. I'm just a very serious hunter. I don"t even type very accurately! Wish I had a place to shoot long distances too. I could shoot at my farm, but I don't want to chance chasing the wildlife out. Anyway, thanks for being tolerant. Now can I go shoot a coyote? !!!!!

trophy1

Steve, good point. Donn

spaniel

Looking at the ballistics, I am quite unimpressed for the improvement over my lowly Omega given the price differential. Simply buying a horribly expensive gun that gives a MARGINAL ballistic improvement does not give the hunter the ability to drop deer at 300, 400, or 500 yards. Just like slapping a Nikon Omega scope gives them the ability to shoot 300 yards, despite what the marketing hype indicates.

The key limitation is the ability of the shooter. Trophy, you say everyone uses a rangefinder. So what does it matter if your trajectory is just a few inches flatter than a 200gr Shockwave out of a "normal" muzzleloader? Within ranges that wind drift is still manageable, the improement is relatively insignificant. Scroll down a bit and you'll see that I had no problem dropping deer out as far as 338 yards this season with an Omega and a relatively modest 110gr charge behind a 200SW.

Is the max range of my Omega shorter? Yes, 400 yds is about all it'll do. I know other Ultimate shooters and they perform the same at around 500 yds. Of course it took me 4 years of having the ability to shoot 400 yards before I actually had to shoot over 300 yards. I don't go around purposely setting up long shots.

The limiting factor of MLs today is the bullets. It doesn't matter how much pyrodex/777 you pack behind the charge, the BC is the same and any advantage will be marginal. Now throw a centerfire-twist 45cal barrel on and work up high BC .357 bullets and you may have something. I don't know if ML sabots will work well in a 1-12 twist but it'd truly be a long range ML. Range advantages are modest and only apparent on the envelope, and wind drift remains a serious issue at the envelope.

If someone has a buck standing at 275 yds and can't shoot it, it is the SHOOTER's issue, not the gun. Any scoped ML can make that shot if the shooter is practiced, knowledgable, and capable of it.

I hope if you're shooting at game at 500 yds you keep your finger off the trigger with 10 mph wind....4 feet of wind drift is more than a small issue to deal with.

This company seems to have a core group of Michigan shooters they periodically send around the message boards to hype this gun. I frequent numerous ML boards and this post is similar to ones there, some new member with few/no posts giving the same marketing points out. Even one guy who is a known member on the board, but doesn't talk about the Ultimate for quite awhile, then about the time I see it posted on other boards again he posts there like it's a new thing he hasn't talked about there before.