Should I bed or float my Omega?
01-11-2008, 08:23 PM
#11
Fork Horn
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 212
RE: Should I bed or float my Omega?
Sabotloader and Spainel,
I was never taught how to bed andI do have a 1974 model 700 LH 270 that is bedded. A gunsmith did it for me. AllI asked was to take a ball end mill and widen the barrel channel and it came back bedded too. @ 100 rds you can shoot prone and all bullets will touch w/federal power shock factory ammo IF I'm shooting real good. When federal changed from classic to power shock I'm not sure what they did but those new bullets/ powder combo inproved in my rifle accuracy. I did nothing different.
From the adsI've seen I believe all the savage syn rifles have pillars imbedded in the stocks. I'm not sure how that would work in my case. There isn't much meat left. I would like to know how you did yours... Like I said IF I'm shooting real good I can hold a tight group but we are talking 100 meters. I'm just an average shooter. When the air drops outa my lungs I am ready to squeeze and then I pick my time and boom. When I'm hunting I'm not even sure I let the airout before shooting. I take the first killing shot I can once I detemine I want that one... I don't mess around. Raise the rifle and a split second later fire.
Any pic's you have of your stock would be nice if possible spaniel.
Thanks, Steve
I was never taught how to bed andI do have a 1974 model 700 LH 270 that is bedded. A gunsmith did it for me. AllI asked was to take a ball end mill and widen the barrel channel and it came back bedded too. @ 100 rds you can shoot prone and all bullets will touch w/federal power shock factory ammo IF I'm shooting real good. When federal changed from classic to power shock I'm not sure what they did but those new bullets/ powder combo inproved in my rifle accuracy. I did nothing different.
From the adsI've seen I believe all the savage syn rifles have pillars imbedded in the stocks. I'm not sure how that would work in my case. There isn't much meat left. I would like to know how you did yours... Like I said IF I'm shooting real good I can hold a tight group but we are talking 100 meters. I'm just an average shooter. When the air drops outa my lungs I am ready to squeeze and then I pick my time and boom. When I'm hunting I'm not even sure I let the airout before shooting. I take the first killing shot I can once I detemine I want that one... I don't mess around. Raise the rifle and a split second later fire.
Any pic's you have of your stock would be nice if possible spaniel.
Thanks, Steve
01-11-2008, 11:35 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 3,192
RE: Should I bed or float my Omega?
I think it is better to bed the action and barrel. IMO the actions of MZ's are not as strong as the actions of a centerfire rifle. I believe the floated barrel puts more stress on the action. I also believe that with the smaller diametere barrel(in relation to the bore), the barrel harmonics yield a larger Sine Wave. I think bedding the barrel reduces these harmonics.
Most gunsmith's I know recommened first trying a pressure point on a barrel before they float the barrel. Just remember to use your torque driver. Tom.
Most gunsmith's I know recommened first trying a pressure point on a barrel before they float the barrel. Just remember to use your torque driver. Tom.
01-12-2008, 06:54 AM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 1,408
RE: Should I bed or float my Omega?
Respectfully, IMHO it's not really a concern how strong ML actions are compared to centerfire. First, the pressures involved are much lower. Second, the design is completely different for most, making a comparison irrelevent. For example, with an Omega, you don't have a barrel hanging off the front of the action, which is where you can think about bedding the barrel. For example, with a Ruger 10/22, it is standard to bed the first few inches of the barrel because it is clamped to the front of the action and not threaded in. This compared to a Rem700 action where the standard is to fully float the barrel.
An Omega is a totally different animal. The barrel IS the action -- the only thing behind the barrel is the swing-up firing pin/breech plug cover mechanism. In this case, I think it makes sense to bed up to the front recoil lug and float in front of that. There is no rationale to bed more of the barrel because it is one solid piece of metal back to the breech plug.
If I get time today I'll snap some pictures of the gun/stock and post them with bedding directions.
An Omega is a totally different animal. The barrel IS the action -- the only thing behind the barrel is the swing-up firing pin/breech plug cover mechanism. In this case, I think it makes sense to bed up to the front recoil lug and float in front of that. There is no rationale to bed more of the barrel because it is one solid piece of metal back to the breech plug.
If I get time today I'll snap some pictures of the gun/stock and post them with bedding directions.
01-12-2008, 07:16 AM
#14
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 3,192
RE: Should I bed or float my Omega?
ORIGINAL: spaniel
Respectfully, IMHO it's not really a concern how strong ML actions are compared to centerfire. First, the pressures involved are much lower. Second, the design is completely different for most, making a comparison irrelevent. For example, with an Omega, you don't have a barrel hanging off the front of the action, which is where you can think about bedding the barrel.
Respectfully, IMHO it's not really a concern how strong ML actions are compared to centerfire. First, the pressures involved are much lower. Second, the design is completely different for most, making a comparison irrelevent. For example, with an Omega, you don't have a barrel hanging off the front of the action, which is where you can think about bedding the barrel.
Again IMO the barrel is basically attached to the lug, and the lug supports the barrel?? If the barrel is floated all the way out from the lug then the barrel would then be supported by the lug?? (I am currently building a target grade 22-250, and the first thing we did was put a larger stronger lug on it).
Are you saying that because of lower pressures that barrel harmonics do not come in to play?? I believe harmonics are still in play. I even believe they are more in play because of the strentgh of the steel used?? And also the "stiffness" of the barrel?? That is why I think a fully bedded barrel is more accurate and more consistent. But then I could easily be wrong.
I do know that the barrel on my LRH is fully supported by the stock(no free floating). And it sure is a shooter. I was thinking about bedding the rifle, but it shoots so well that I do not think bedding would help. Personally my shooting limit is 250 yards. I set this limit because of time of flight, and not because of the ability to shot farther. Accurate shooting at longer distances would not be a problem.
This has been a fun discussion. Tom.
01-12-2008, 10:16 AM
#16
Spike
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location:
Posts: 39
RE: Should I bed or float my Omega?
bowbender6
If you do the bed job could you document it with pics. I would like to see this or if anyone has stepxstep with pics I would like to see it.
If you do the bed job could you document it with pics. I would like to see this or if anyone has stepxstep with pics I would like to see it.
01-12-2008, 11:32 AM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 1,408
RE: Should I bed or float my Omega?
I'm sure harmonics do come into play, but neither of us can say how I am sure. The purpose of floating the barrel is to allow the barrel to do its thing the same way every time without the influence of pressure from the stock. If you shoot offhand, vs from a bench, the pressure on the stock will differ and this will be transmitted straight to the barrel and affect the harmonics. You want to isolate the barrel from the stock as much as possible. With a 10/22, it's a trade-off because due to the barrel clamping mechanism if you fully float the barrel is not held firmly enough to the action to be consistent. So you create a pressure point. This is a trade-off. If you want to do it right and have the money, you have a barrel and action threaded. Competition guys do this with 10/22s so they can then fully float the barrel.
Have you ever seen an Omega out of the stock? There is no true action. The barrel goes full-length. It is actually STIFFER then say a Remington 700 action, because it's all one piece, no separate action with a barrel threaded in, and cuts in the action for ejection and such that weaken it. Some other MLs are different, but not the Omega.
I would never recommend bedding a gun that is already an excellent shooter and has no apparent issues. Don't fix what isn't broke!
By bedding, you also get a setup that goes together exactly the same every time. My Omega is bedded so tight that it takes some back-and-forth effort to work it out of the stock.
Have you ever seen an Omega out of the stock? There is no true action. The barrel goes full-length. It is actually STIFFER then say a Remington 700 action, because it's all one piece, no separate action with a barrel threaded in, and cuts in the action for ejection and such that weaken it. Some other MLs are different, but not the Omega.
I would never recommend bedding a gun that is already an excellent shooter and has no apparent issues. Don't fix what isn't broke!
By bedding, you also get a setup that goes together exactly the same every time. My Omega is bedded so tight that it takes some back-and-forth effort to work it out of the stock.
01-12-2008, 12:08 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 1,408
RE: Should I bed or float my Omega?
I don't have pics from when I bedded my Omega, so this is the best I can do......
Here is the gun:
-First, obtain something to use as aluminum pillars. I bought centerfire pillars online but you can use any type of aluminum tube from Lowe's hardware cut to the right length and with a big enough hole for the action screw to pass thru without touching the sides. I also recommend it be as wide as the heads of the screws.
-Drill holes through the stock from the outside in the exact width of the pillars centered on the old holes. The pillars should fit in pretty tight. Make sure the pillars are cut to length so that when they are inserted against the lugs and the screws screwed in tight, the screw heads come to the appropriate flushness with the outside of the stock. It is best to use a drill press and electric hacksaw with clamp to do this right; I used a hand drill and hacksaw and it turned out ok though it could have been prettier.
-With appropriate epoxy, coat the pillars. Insert the action into the stock. Insert the pillar from the outside so no epoxy gets on the lug (important!). Wipe away excess so none gets on the screw. Screw the action screws in tight, and use masking tape around the action portion to lash the whole thing into the stock -- it is possible for things to tilt a little from the weight of the barrel and this would be BAD. If the barrel was floated before (this job comes first), it should still be now...otherwise you are sagging and need to lash things in tighter. The other option is to wrap the barrel with a multi-layering of masking tape too just maintain your free-float, as described in detail further below.
-After everything dries very well, you can disassemble and inspect your job:
-Now take a Dremel tool and remove wood all around the tops of the pillars. This is so when you bed it, the action will pull tight to the pillars and rest on them primarily. The bedding will push out down to that level so you no longer have any stock compression. Then you need to remove a thin layer of wood (1/16 or 3/32) on every surface that the action touches all the way from the front of the trigger guard hole forward to the front of the front recoil lug. You also need to remove wood all the way around each recoil lug. When you are done, the action should not touch wood anywhere. While the pillars should keep everything in place when you screw it together, it does not hurt to mark the stock and barrel with a pencil in a couple locations to make sure that when you put it back together after adding bedding compound, everything is in the right place. The carefully remove every trace of dust.
-Now you need to take modeling clay and fill in every crevice that you do NOT want bedding in. This includes the ramrod channel. The trick is to fill the channel full enough to leave room for the ramrod, but not so much that there is not a thick enough bridge of bedding over the ramrod to be solid. As you can see from mine in the pick below, I had a thin area that brok away when I tried to remove the clay. That is ok, while it is not pretty the bridge over the channel is not necessary for accuracy or stability. You are more concerned with the lugs and the sides along the barrel and as it wraps underneath towards the channel.
-Remove everything possible from the action--like the trigger assembly. If any holes are positioned that they may get into bedding compound, protect them with clay.
-Remove all oil from the action/barrel. Fill the ramrod channels in both lugs with clay. Double-check for any other cavities I'm forgetting to mention, the design has changed slightly since my gun.
-Wrap the barrel with masking tape just in front of the lug. Carefully overlap the layers EXACTLY. Test-fit over and over until you have the exact number of layers that when the action is screwed in, the tape is just maintaining your free-float. This tape will serve as a "dam" to mark the forward limit of the bedding. The clay in the ramrod channel should butt tighty up against the bottom of the tape.
-Double-check that every hole and cavity is protected. Get the bedding compound ready.
-Apply release agent to EVERY SQUARE MILLIMETER of the action. If you screw this up, you are about to weld your action permanently into the stock! Most kits come with release agent. I used PAM cooking spray applied liberally.
-Using a popsicle stick or other tool, apply the bedding compound, prepared according to its instructions, to the areas to be bedded. You want to add just enough to fill the cavities you have created, but not a lot of excess. I erred on the side of a little too little, as you can alwasy redo the missing areas but if you add too much you could create quite a mess.
- Insert the action into the stock and tighten the action screws all the way. I also lashed everything in with masking tape to be sure. Make sure the action screws are centered in the pillars, they won't shift after this! Wherever excess bedding squeezed out, wipe it off immediately. Some will come out in the trigger guard area, and around the barrel the length of the action. Wipe it all off. You should have a thin brown line along the barrel.
-Leave for whatever the kit says, probably 48 hrs. A gun vise is a good place for it, it must sit in the horizontal position with zero pressure on the barrel.
-Remove the tape and action screws. Holding the stock in one hand, lightly begin tapping the barrel with the other to try and break the action free. You may have to use a rubber mallet to apply a little more force. If it still does not come free, better have a beer because you may have welded it in. But it will probably pop loose. You may have to apply pressure thru the trigger guard hole to the back of the action to work it back and forth and out if it is a tight job.
-Inspect. If there are any areas you need to redo, repeat as above.
-When you are finished, you should have a nice defined bed for the action and lugs:
-Carefully root out all the clay. As you can see I broke through over the ramrod channel, no big deal. Reassemble everything, remove the tape, and put it together. The barrel should be floated perfectly and the action tight.
Here is the gun:
-First, obtain something to use as aluminum pillars. I bought centerfire pillars online but you can use any type of aluminum tube from Lowe's hardware cut to the right length and with a big enough hole for the action screw to pass thru without touching the sides. I also recommend it be as wide as the heads of the screws.
-Drill holes through the stock from the outside in the exact width of the pillars centered on the old holes. The pillars should fit in pretty tight. Make sure the pillars are cut to length so that when they are inserted against the lugs and the screws screwed in tight, the screw heads come to the appropriate flushness with the outside of the stock. It is best to use a drill press and electric hacksaw with clamp to do this right; I used a hand drill and hacksaw and it turned out ok though it could have been prettier.
-With appropriate epoxy, coat the pillars. Insert the action into the stock. Insert the pillar from the outside so no epoxy gets on the lug (important!). Wipe away excess so none gets on the screw. Screw the action screws in tight, and use masking tape around the action portion to lash the whole thing into the stock -- it is possible for things to tilt a little from the weight of the barrel and this would be BAD. If the barrel was floated before (this job comes first), it should still be now...otherwise you are sagging and need to lash things in tighter. The other option is to wrap the barrel with a multi-layering of masking tape too just maintain your free-float, as described in detail further below.
-After everything dries very well, you can disassemble and inspect your job:
-Now take a Dremel tool and remove wood all around the tops of the pillars. This is so when you bed it, the action will pull tight to the pillars and rest on them primarily. The bedding will push out down to that level so you no longer have any stock compression. Then you need to remove a thin layer of wood (1/16 or 3/32) on every surface that the action touches all the way from the front of the trigger guard hole forward to the front of the front recoil lug. You also need to remove wood all the way around each recoil lug. When you are done, the action should not touch wood anywhere. While the pillars should keep everything in place when you screw it together, it does not hurt to mark the stock and barrel with a pencil in a couple locations to make sure that when you put it back together after adding bedding compound, everything is in the right place. The carefully remove every trace of dust.
-Now you need to take modeling clay and fill in every crevice that you do NOT want bedding in. This includes the ramrod channel. The trick is to fill the channel full enough to leave room for the ramrod, but not so much that there is not a thick enough bridge of bedding over the ramrod to be solid. As you can see from mine in the pick below, I had a thin area that brok away when I tried to remove the clay. That is ok, while it is not pretty the bridge over the channel is not necessary for accuracy or stability. You are more concerned with the lugs and the sides along the barrel and as it wraps underneath towards the channel.
-Remove everything possible from the action--like the trigger assembly. If any holes are positioned that they may get into bedding compound, protect them with clay.
-Remove all oil from the action/barrel. Fill the ramrod channels in both lugs with clay. Double-check for any other cavities I'm forgetting to mention, the design has changed slightly since my gun.
-Wrap the barrel with masking tape just in front of the lug. Carefully overlap the layers EXACTLY. Test-fit over and over until you have the exact number of layers that when the action is screwed in, the tape is just maintaining your free-float. This tape will serve as a "dam" to mark the forward limit of the bedding. The clay in the ramrod channel should butt tighty up against the bottom of the tape.
-Double-check that every hole and cavity is protected. Get the bedding compound ready.
-Apply release agent to EVERY SQUARE MILLIMETER of the action. If you screw this up, you are about to weld your action permanently into the stock! Most kits come with release agent. I used PAM cooking spray applied liberally.
-Using a popsicle stick or other tool, apply the bedding compound, prepared according to its instructions, to the areas to be bedded. You want to add just enough to fill the cavities you have created, but not a lot of excess. I erred on the side of a little too little, as you can alwasy redo the missing areas but if you add too much you could create quite a mess.
- Insert the action into the stock and tighten the action screws all the way. I also lashed everything in with masking tape to be sure. Make sure the action screws are centered in the pillars, they won't shift after this! Wherever excess bedding squeezed out, wipe it off immediately. Some will come out in the trigger guard area, and around the barrel the length of the action. Wipe it all off. You should have a thin brown line along the barrel.
-Leave for whatever the kit says, probably 48 hrs. A gun vise is a good place for it, it must sit in the horizontal position with zero pressure on the barrel.
-Remove the tape and action screws. Holding the stock in one hand, lightly begin tapping the barrel with the other to try and break the action free. You may have to use a rubber mallet to apply a little more force. If it still does not come free, better have a beer because you may have welded it in. But it will probably pop loose. You may have to apply pressure thru the trigger guard hole to the back of the action to work it back and forth and out if it is a tight job.
-Inspect. If there are any areas you need to redo, repeat as above.
-When you are finished, you should have a nice defined bed for the action and lugs:
-Carefully root out all the clay. As you can see I broke through over the ramrod channel, no big deal. Reassemble everything, remove the tape, and put it together. The barrel should be floated perfectly and the action tight.
