RE: Black Powder Bullets
 

Yep, You pushed the bullet to fast and it didnt have time to open up and expand. Once you lower your charge down to 80 grains, You'll be dropping them.

RE: Black Powder Bullets
 

I've had really great luck and accuracy with the TC 250grSG Shockwaves out of most of my ML's. They load fairly easy, yet still groove good. The regular shockwaves are good too. Alot of ML's like them. Powerbelts can be good too as stated. Some versions tend to break up on impactwhen pushed to fast.
I also only use 100gr. powder whether pellets or loose. I believe I could hit a half dollar @ 100yrds.(shockwaves) Most of the time, with that setup in my Omega. And I don't really practice a whole lot. This is bench shooting at the range of course. It's freaky how good they shoot for me. I'll pay a couple extra dollars for them because you hardly ever get fliers. At least I don't. Maybe I just got lucky and got an especially good Omega...lol I am way better a shot with the Z5 than before. coinsidence? I don't think so. lol

chris

RE: Black Powder Bullets
 

OK Like someone said......man this stuff is getting to be a real science! OK I just went to the local gun shop and they were pushing the Barnes 285 grain MZ Expanders. I also purchased a box of the T7 30 grain pellets. I was thinking about trying these bullets with 80 grains of the triple seven pellets. What are the thoughts? What I am understanding from F Gander that the 100 grains was just too hot of a load for the closer shots within 150 yards?? Is this correct? Man you talk about going back to school! well class is in session and I am here to learn, I love a challange I just don't care for a deer to be wasted at the expense of my ingorance. Of course I would like to see EVERYONE drop in their tracks as they do when my 7 MM MAG reaches out and knocks on their door, but don't take me wrong, I do NOT mind trailing a blood trail at all, as long as the deer is running dead and just don't know it.
Nevertheless again I would like to THANK EVERYONE for their support and very useful knowledge!

Chris

One thing I forgot to mention! MAN these new bullets and sabots are 100% harder to shove down the pipe of the Encore than the PB's were! But that is a no brainer as long as they do the deed on the Split Hoofed Critters that I am in search of, I will just have to use a little more GRUNT to get them down!!

RE: Black Powder Bullets
 

CBourgeois

Barnes are excellent bullets, but the sabots they come with are designed for .503/.504 bore - they will probably be way to tight for your Encore.

You will need to get some MMP HPH-24, or regular Harvesters to be able to use them easily. But id the barnes you bought are boat tail bullets you will not be able to get a replacement dabot for them.

I shoot an Omega but I use the HPH-24 sabot with Nosler or Speer bullets.

RE: Black Powder Bullets
 

Pglasgow recommends that PB be shot no higher than 1400 fps for them to expand and not fragment. I believe that number. Chap

RE: Black Powder Bullets
 

No not college, but Bullet Class 101. You can go to the test at the end of the course by doing google searches on and reading things:
"Nosler Partition Muzzleloader bullet performance"
"Barnes Expander MZ bullet performance"
Thompson Center ShockWave bullet performance
Speer Gold Dot Bullet Performance

You can read about PB bullet performance or lack of it here:
http://www.the-gleasons.com/powerbelt_page.htm

Where I have done the search, read all the content, organized it and placed it on a home page as PDFs so people don't have to login.

You can also go to Cabela's and Midway and look at ML bullets and Rifle bullet under "Reloading components" and you will get a lotta feedback from pissed off people that bullet xxxx fragemented or fell apart on the shoulder of a deer.

There are of course other bullets, but they are not going to be better than those listed. Buy this required book for course and read the chapter by Bryce Towsley titled "Muzzleloader Bullets":

http://www.ramworks.net/estore.html

Wish you luck on the test. Here is a sample question:

"What bullet was the Savage 10ML2 designed around.? Why?"

Chap

RE: Black Powder Bullets
 

Chris, The MZ Expanders are great bullets, see this write up:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/barnes_expander_bullets.htm

Frontier Ganders comments pertain to the PowerBelt ONLY. MZ Expanders can be shot fast and hard, they will hold together, go thru bone, even both shoulders and expand to 2x and retain 100% of it's weight. Bryce Towsley, who wrote the chapter on Muzzleloader Bullets, in Rifle Bullets for the Hunter A Definitve Approach (excellent Christmas gift for a hunter, including yourself) calls the Barnes Expander MZ "the nearly perfect Muzzleloader bullet" and his logic was:
retains 100% of weight
exands to 2x the diamer, so about an inch
expands on contact about 1 or two inches into the animal, since the huge Hollow point on the front of it
does NOT fragment 1 bit,
go thru large bones
exits for huge blood trails
usually produces boom flops on boiler room hits

So if you do some careful reading of what people use and WHY, then you will get their LOGIC. Why does Craig Boddington say:
"a thing of beauty is a long shank bullet, perfectly expanded on it's head to about 2x of the diameter"? Current Issue of Am Rifleman in his evaluation of a new bullet.

Most people choose bullets based on the following factors:
accuracy
penetration
expansion
shoot thru

Accuracy is #1, cause if you don't hit what your shooting at nothing else matters.

Penetation is #2, cause you gotta get into the vitals to get a kill or boom flop

Expansion is #3, because once you penetrate the vitals you want a large wound channel, so that massive tissue disruption is caused. That is why they measure volume of ballistic gel displaced by a bullet because it is a surragate factor closely related to tissue disruption

shoot thru is #4, because you want a good blood trail. Some folks want "all the energy" to be in the deer, so no shoot thru, under the theory that all the energy in the deer produces "boom flop". But it is tissue disruption/wound channel that produces boom/flops on boiler room hits (not neck or head shot),not all the enery from the rifle in the deer. Physics says that every action produces and equal and opposite reaction, do does recoil knock you down, no, so the bullet expanded in a deer is not going to knock it down, the tissue disruption is going to do that. Read this article:

http://randywakeman.com/EnergyTransferandBulletBullistics.htm andthis:

http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html


Here is a Nosler Partition shotwith 100g of 777 in the brisketof a buck and it wentlengthwise thru the buck and I found it on the offside under the skin near the hind quarter of the deer. As you can see it is perfectly expanded, no flat as a pancake mushroom, and it went to about 30 inches ofdeer, now that is penetration! Which means "gets into the vitals" causes massive damage and exits the vitals for good blood trail. The Expander will do this also, and more.
Chap

RE: Black Powder Bullets
 

Exact same thing happened to meas Chris several times the last season I used thembefore I
1) got on a ML forum and got some direction,
2) did some searches on "PowerBelet Performance"and
3) reading of product pages at Cabelas and Midway.
I then got some Noslers, SWs, XTPs etc and did some penetration tests into packed top soil in a 5 gallon bucket and looking at expansion, penetration and fragmentation. Sabotloader send me3 Noslers to try. Chap

RE: Black Powder Bullets
 

80 grains of triple 7 for me,sighted dead on @ 100 yards was only 4" low at 150 yards. Use 80 grains like i recommended and they will drop the deer.

I actually use these bullets and have for going on 6 years now, So i have quite a bit of experience with these bullets. I dont just use them once and try to make out that i know everything about them. I use these bullets because ive learned the right way to use them, they load easy and the accuracy i get is Superb.

A quote
"My brother hit a large buck on opening day in the front shoulder at 60 yards with a Platinum PB, 348g. "

There is no 348 grain platinum made to this day. Only a 348 grain copper series. Typo maybe?
http://powerbeltbullets.com/plat.html

Another Wrong....
"Oh, my brothers was the new Platimuum colored PBs, which is just the copper ones with a different polish, the lead mix is the same bullet, too hard, not soft and driving enough to hold togeter to kill."

To hard? Wrong, the lead is extremely soft and when i recover powerbelts from my range, i melt these down and mold Roundballs for my flintlock due to the very soft lead it offers.

More Wrong.....
"Amen, you made a perfect rib shot, the PBs don't disintegrate on rib shots, they disintegrate on bone shots in the shoulder. Therefore since nobody can guarantee their shot 100% into a larger deer one should logically either
1) only shoot small deer (<=80 lbs) ----you can break the bone on a small deer, they are fragile
2) shoot a better bullet that holds together in bone.

Chap Gleason "

:eek: 120-130lb mule deer doe with a 225 grain powerbelt, 80 grains triple 7, 80 yard shot.
Oh, And through the shoulder.


Now, While others prefer to use different bullets, which is their choice, I have to use a conical and my .45 shoots the powerbelts the best so ive shot hundreds of them, finding the right powder charge that offers the best performance on game. Now when i posted that i was going to use the 225 powerbelt on here, That started a conversation to use a 275 or 300 grainer minimum in my .45

After shooting many different loads,powder, penetration tests. I went out with a 225 grainer and 80 grains triple 7. We all know how the hunt went, because it is pictured in this post. And this hunt is one of the best hunts i have ever had.
Now, do you take advice to a person who actually uses them 99% of the time, Or take the advice of those who in some cases, have never even used a PB before or have Very little experience at shooting game with these projectiles? Ive spent a good amount of my money on these bullets,powder, caps to find the RIGHT load for these bullets.
Im just giving you the right advice on how to properly shoot these bullets, Thats all. After hundreds of rounds of powerbelts, I now know exactly how to use these bullets to get excellent performance.

Also, When you shoot a deer in the shoulder, All it hits is a very thin flexy roundish shaped disk. The actual shoulder bone is far forward and if you shoot at that on a broadside shot, you miss the vitals completely and end up taking out the windpipe, which in turn, requires a follow up shot to put it out of its misery. I found that out when i took a shot like that with a 385 grain great plains conical.

Again, Im just trying to help you out with using the powerbelt the proper way.


http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1886707&mpage=1&key=

RE: Black Powder Bullets
 

Exactly right. You have to hope bone fragments will destroy the lungs. Otherwise the deer will go a long, long way.