As for further follow-up on bullet expansion and designexperience and theories, please see this gentleman's experience. I have his ML hunting book:

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Muzzleloading-Todays-Whitetails-McMurchy/dp/0873419510/ref=sr_1_1/102-4416274-2032936?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194698291&amp ;sr=8-1

and he is an excellent hunter and practical hunter, with tons of experience, but here is what he says about the Noslers onbear:

http://www.cabelas.com/story-123/mcmurchy_bearbullets/82/Bullets+For+Bears.shtml

and in particular about slow moving bullets with large frontal areas. I believe you will find that PB which mushroom very quickly will release their energy too quickly too quickly in some cases causing no penetration and no kill. That is my theory and supporting documentaiton. Thanks for listening.
Chap

Please see this article on Bullet design and weight retention:

http://www.cabelas.com/story-123/carlson_huntbullet_bg/10201/Hunting%252520Bullet%252520Buyer%2527s%252520Guide .shtml

and in particular this statement by the author, which I agree with. The PB does NOT retain the weight, when it hits something hard or is pushed to fast.
Chap

Now I have been touting the Nosler Partitions as the example of "perfect expansion" bullet for a MLer, but even Noslers can fail (in rilfe bullet, not ML speed):

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-9257.html

These were rifle bullets, again pushed too fast too close. But the back and forth on this thread was very interesting on what bullets hold together. Note what the recommend. Bottom line, at ML speeds, the Nosler Parttion hold together, penetrates, never fragments even hitting big bone, and gets into the Vitals---remember what Ian McMurchy said for getting into the vitals, a big bullet going slower. I figure that the 300g is a big bullet, and I can get into the vitals if I take a 150 yard shot and hit the shoulder by mistake. The only down side is cake shots on small deer blow right thru causing a tracking problem, usually not that far, but better to shoot for the off side shoulder.
So PB for cake shots broadside
difficult quarting shots stayuse a good expanding bulletthat is well constructed.


Current issue (Dec 2007)of "Guns and Ammo Magazine", Craig Boddington in an article title "Tipped and Bonded", pages 26 and 27 says the following:

"There is a growing class of bullets designed to both expand and penetrate. This is perhaps the most difficult thing for a bulletmaker to achieve because these are two diametrically opposed concepts. Expansion creates more resistance and thus limits penetration. Alhough you con't have it all, there are some very good "comprimise" bullets that do a darned good job. The first of these was John Nosler's Partition. It stood almost alone for expansion adn penetration: The front part expands fairly quickly; the back half, almost like a mini-solid, continues to penetrate even if much of the front part is wiped away by friction".

Further down he says:

"Those we recoved were just plain gorgeous for those who think recoved bullets with consistent mushrooms and long shanks are thing of beauty)."

So the ideal bullet is (see Barnes bullet from their web site):
1) expanded fully open at the head
2) holding nearly 100% of weight, over 90% is ideal
3) long shank

NOT Pancake. The PB shown above is "pancake", allow massive wound channel where it open up, if that was behind a rib your into the vitals and your gold, if that was a large bone or a shoulder, then you have got a wound on the surface fo the skin on a deer and no kill and no blood trail, since here was not massive internal damage to get a blood trail. So Boddington believes "gorgeous bullets" are long shank, perfect mushroom--bullets in the Nosler AccuBond, Hornady InterBond and Swift Sciroco. Us MLer don't have the bullet selection that the CF guys have, but we are getting there. I hope this helps educate what "gorgeous bullet" means, it does NOT mean pancake because Pancake is a tad short of fragmentation and why you find so many bullets fully expanded on the off side under the skin, they have no more energy left to punch thru the skin and out the other side.
Chap Gleason

Well, it seems some things never change. Powerbelts are still taking up extensive bandwidth. Thought I would share my Powerbelt experience.

I bought some 405's on clearance last January. Worked up a load with 70 grains 3f Goex. In Oklahoma's Muzzleloader season, harvested a 114 lb. fork buck with this load. The shot was broadside at around 50 yards behind the right shoulder. The deer lurched and made two leaps and wound up crumpling with his hindquarters switching ends with his front.

No bullet was recovered. The exit hole was large, between 3/4" and 1" in diameter. Damage to the vitals was more than sufficient and consistent with results achieved with the GP 385. Trajectory for the load follows.

Phil, Where ya been? Perfect. The 1300 fps with 70g of Goex did the trick. You know exactly how fast to push them. If they were designed for 70g of powder, why do they publish this:

http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/docs/PBB26inchballistics.pdf

With 100 to 150g of powder as recommended load? Your chart was generated with a ballistic program, most hunters will NOT know how to use the program to drop their data into it. To me the PB chartat the URL I showed aboveis designed to compete with "long range hunting" bullets. You know exactly how to use the PB, and you are in the minority, since most hunters are clueless about PBs.

Chap

Chap,

I've been keeping myself busy. Yes, I consider it very good load. As good as any actually. I've also hunted extensively with 7mm Rem Mag and never got performance which remarkably exceeded the performance of a heavy all-lead hollowpoint impacting at an appropriate velocity. Of course the 7 Mag is point and shoot out to 250 yards. That's the major difference. Up close, a muzzleloader, even with a powerbelt, is a formidable weapon.

Agree 100% Phil the MLer is a formidable weapon with a PB, no doubt about itl. Chap

Its the muzzleloader makers today with their 150 grain magnum BS load that ruins accuracy and bullet performance. They didnt have these so called magnum loads back in the old days and you still dont need them today.

I recovered between 6-8 225 powerbelts when i was shooting 200 yards some months back and they mushroomed nicely with 100 grains of fffg goex and lost almost no weight at all.

I think that 100g is much too fast for the 225g PB, the chart for PB says that is 1720 fps, not good for a PB. Chap Gleason

Its just right. The recovered bullets ive found where a perfect little mushroom. Of course, that was 200 yards and they do slow down quite a bit at that range. I need to do more testing with that 100 grain fffg goex load @ 100 yards. I've keep biting my fingers lately to stay out of my wallet. Im ordering a GPR .54 flintlock on the 15th of this month.