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RE: Very interesting
ORIGINAL: driftrider IMO, Considering that most people aren't able to make reliable kill zone hits at 300 yards in field conditions with CF rifles, I'd consider attempting such a shot with ANY muzzleloader a highly questionable decision to say the least. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but just because it's possible doesn't make it ethical when there is a live animal at the other end. Muzzleloader bullets are flying ashtrays, even the "streamlined" polymer tipped ones. The BC's are low to very low, rarily breaking the 0.200 BC mark. Some manufacturers boast higher numbers, but I think that they are more marketing hype than truth. And if you use a heavy sabot bullet with a good-for-class BC, the MV is going to be low. So the combination of low MV and poor BC make for a steep trajectory and rapid loss of velocity and energy. Out past 150 yards, even the fastest shooting ML's bullet is dropping like a rock, and by 300 yards you're talking about having to hold well over the animal to connect. In fact, figuring a (very generous) 0.200 BC and a 2200fps MV, a rifle zeroed at 200 yards would be apx 21" below the Line-of-sight (LOS) at 300 yards, with the apex being almost 5" over LOS at 110 yards, which would necessitate a hold-under at that range on deer-sized game. Then there's the issue of wind drift. If you have even a 10mph, 90 deg, crosswind, at 300 yards the above bullet would have drifted apx 26". A 15mph wind would cause that bullet to drift 39". You'd better be darn good at estimating range and doping wind. Compare to a .30-06, shooting a 150gr PSP (0.270 BC) at 2900fps, zeroed at 200 yards, will be about 9" below LOS at 300 yards and with a 10mph wind will have drifted apx. 12". These numbers would make for a tough shot at 300 yards, and there is no ML made that can come close to the external ballistics of a .30-06. So my opinion boils down to this...no one has ANY business attempting shots at game at 300 yards with ANY ML. If you want to mess around at the range trying to punch holes in paper with your ML at 300 yards, knock yourself out. But you owe it to the animal take only shots where you are CONFIDENT that you can make a good clean shot into the vitals resulting in the quickest, most humane death possible. Anything less if unacceptable. Mike |
RE: 300 yards...?
I have a 10ML-II too, and I wouldn't attempt it even with the hottest loads. The problem come in with how do you zero the rifle. If you zeroed the rifle at 300 yards, it'd still be one heck of a shot unless it's dead still and you have the exact range. Even 10 yards off on a range estimate will be about a 3" high/low. 20 yards off and you've probably (hopefully) missed completely. Combine this with the fact that just makeing a good POA=POI shot at 300 yards in field conditions with a sub-MOA rifle is very hard, and you might as well just close your eyes, pull the trigger and pray.;)
Mike |
RE: Very interesting
Accuracy and killing efficiency at long range is conditioned by two thing's. One is the quality of equipment, and the other is the ability of the shooter. I have witnessed some long range events where shooter's were shooting with long range Gibbs and Whitworth rifle's. You would not believe what these guy's can do. To them 300 yards is a short distance.
300 yards to an experienced rifleman with the proper equipment is not a problem. All it takes is practice, and a little money to buy the proper equipment. I am by no means a ballistic expert, but I imagine a 525 grain conical at 1600-1800 fps can kill deer a long way out. Remember energy is not everything. If energy was the only factor then how could a buffalo hunter kill a buffalo at 1,000 yards??And yes the trajectory would be a rainbow, but there are guy's who do it everyday. I shoot BP in my Sharp's rifle in 45-70 with a 405 grain cast bullet. I am extremely confident in my killing ability to 200 yards. I have been practicing to 400 yards-but I would not attempt that shot. Hopefully by this deer season I will be confident out to 250 or 300 yards. Tom.  In this picture you are looking at $2500 worth of equipment. Long distance shooting is expensive. |
RE: Very interesting
"But you owe it to the animal take only shots where you are CONFIDENT that you can make a good clean shot into the vitals resulting in the quickest, most humane death possible. Anything less if unacceptable."
Bingo!!! The cause of muzzleloader hunting is greatly hurt by advertising hype.Saw an ad in a hunting magazine where Hodgdon Power claims that two oftheir spiffy new Triple Seven Magnum pelletsare capable of propelling a bullet to more muzzle energy than a .30-06. This is total bull$&!). A 150 grain, .30 caliber bullet leaving the muzzle at 2,900 fps generates over 2,800 foot pounds of energy. The 250 grain SST bulletpushed by two TSM pellets generates less than 2,000 foot pounds of energy. Furthermore, the 150 grain bullet will retain thatenergy much better than theshort fat .45 caliber. Two TSM pellets give a 250 grain Shockwave a velocity of 1,850 fps-the same as 100 grains of Pyrodex RS.Lots of newfolks are going to believeHodgdon's totally outrageous claim and try to shoot deer at very long rangesusing the magical new propellant. |
RE: Very interesting
Falcon I agree with your premise about the advertising. But they are not falsely advertising. Remember a 405 grain bullet at 2100 fps(from a 45-70) yields about 3600 ft# of energy. If you drop that to 1600 or 1800 fps it will still be well above 2000 ft# of energy. And two pellets will push a 405 at that velocity.
When you talk to long range shooter's they do not use modern so called BP bullet's. They use hand casted lead bullet's in weight's well over 500 or even 600 grains. Those big bullets will travel and kill a long way out. I think the Gibb's 45 caliber bullet weigh's 525 grains?? Some one please correct me if that is wrong, but I think it is right. Tom. |
RE: Very interesting
I make a point to limit myself to a lasered200 yards as a maximum...with my rifle load combo.
Probably cheated that a time or two tho'..... In the Big Picture, 200 yards reallyain't jack. |
RE: Very interesting
falcon
Here is the statement and if you look in the reloading manuals you will find it to be true.... remember thay are not talking velocity thay are talking energy... The new Magnums deliver incredible energy. With just two Pellets, a modern 209-primed muzzleloader and a 250 grain bullet can deliver more energy at the muzzle than a 30-06 with a 200 grain bullet; and will match the performance of the monstrous 460 S&W Magnum. Tom, who is also a competitive muzzleloader with numerous State and National titles to his credit, says, “These Pellets provide extreme accuracy with an extended lethal range; they are a sure winner for this years’ deer season.” Energy level of a 250 grain .452 @ 2000fps is about 2220fpe Energy level of a 200 grain .308 @ 2100fps is about 2154fpe Energy level of a 180 grain .308 @ 2400fpd is about 2302fpe So the add is correct even though it is misleading.... but the statement is true for the most part... |
RE: Very interesting
I've always been a bigger fan of shot placement than of "energy"...........
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RE: Very interesting
I enjoy punching holes in paper at long range. I've had a couple muzzleloaders that would print very respectable groups at 200 yards and beyond.
I also enjoy deer hunting, and love to see just how close I can get. The Omega that would shoot moa groups did a great job of dropping a deer at 60 yards in it's tracks! :D In other words my theory is: For target shooting long range is fun, but for hunting get real close and put the bullet where it will drop the critter quickly! ;) |
RE: Very interesting
I want to start out saying thanks to everyone for their input. It's good to know that when you have a question there a people of knowlege that are so willing to share.:D
I had assumed the 300 yards was a iffy at best, but now it is confirmed in my mind. I know there is a big difference between paper and the real thing! Once again.... Thanks, Scott |
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