300 yards...?
10-20-2007, 04:04 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2
300 yards...?
I have heard that the TC Pro hunter 50 cal. is capable of taking deer at 300 yards reliably. Is this true or is it a pipe dream? If not what is the gun capable of under the right conditions? And of course, in the right hands.
Thanks, Scott
Thanks, Scott
10-20-2007, 04:15 PM
#2
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 289
RE: 300 yards...?
They say the BadBull Muzzleloaders will shoot a 3inch group at 300yds and the Knight Longrange will shoot tight groups at 200yds.Take a look at the web site BadBull muzzleloaders.com They are great looking guns but look at the price[:'(].
10-20-2007, 04:16 PM
#3
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: 300 yards...?
First off let me welcome you to the forum..
300 yards with any rifle is a long way. Even centerfire rifles. If any muzzleloader was going to do it, I would guess that the Pro Hunter might be one of them. Personally I think people are trying to push a muzzleloader too far.
When people ask me about how far they think their rifle is good for, I normally tell them with good optics, 200 yards in not out of the question and that will take some practice and load development.
If I really had to get a muzzleloader and shoot 300 yards, then I would look at; Savage ML-10II,Omega, Pro Hunter, Encore, Knight Long Range Hunter, Knight Extreme, and some of the better top of the line CVA, Traditions, etc.. then I would tell you that you really should not shoot that far. Instead limit your shots to 150 yards - 200 yards max. Although there are people that can and do shoot further then that.
I am not one of them.
300 yards with any rifle is a long way. Even centerfire rifles. If any muzzleloader was going to do it, I would guess that the Pro Hunter might be one of them. Personally I think people are trying to push a muzzleloader too far.
When people ask me about how far they think their rifle is good for, I normally tell them with good optics, 200 yards in not out of the question and that will take some practice and load development.
If I really had to get a muzzleloader and shoot 300 yards, then I would look at; Savage ML-10II,Omega, Pro Hunter, Encore, Knight Long Range Hunter, Knight Extreme, and some of the better top of the line CVA, Traditions, etc.. then I would tell you that you really should not shoot that far. Instead limit your shots to 150 yards - 200 yards max. Although there are people that can and do shoot further then that.
I am not one of them.
10-20-2007, 04:38 PM
#4
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 34
RE: 300 yards...?
they say the ultimate firearms bp xpress has documented kills of up to 500 yards. it used 200 grains of powder and a .45case for a primer.\
http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/
http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/
10-20-2007, 05:11 PM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
Posts: 6,921
RE: 300 yards...?
The bullets we have to choose are a limiting factor, with low BC's they lend themselves poorly to long range and highly suspect of variables such as wind drift, etc. For one to be proficient with any weapon shooting longer then "normal" ranges it takes a big commitment in trigger time and shooting in all conditions/situations. Off the bench is much different then in the field. Ingeneral the limiting factor isn't the equipment but the user?? Though for those who are willing to put forth the effort and have the ability longer shots are doable. However for the majority of hunters 200 yard max with a scoped Ml should be the max.
BTW I own a savage 10II and shoot smokeless powder, it has shot some pretty nice groups at ranges further then 200 yards but off the bench vs in the field are 2 different worlds. Itreat it likemy other MLs, That being: max is 200 ishin good conditions on a relaxed animal, solid rest, verified range, positive shot angle (broadside or slight 1/4 away) and everything feels right with the trigger man. If not I back off and look for another opportunity.
BTW I own a savage 10II and shoot smokeless powder, it has shot some pretty nice groups at ranges further then 200 yards but off the bench vs in the field are 2 different worlds. Itreat it likemy other MLs, That being: max is 200 ishin good conditions on a relaxed animal, solid rest, verified range, positive shot angle (broadside or slight 1/4 away) and everything feels right with the trigger man. If not I back off and look for another opportunity.
10-20-2007, 05:22 PM
#7
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location:
Posts: 28
Very interesting
[Thank you for posting this info. I am very impressed and do not see why it could not be possible from good solid rest. Off hand I would not shoot at the game 300 yards away even with 300 Win. Magnum (my Saco cenrfire).
Very interesting, especially that my state does not allow centrfire guns for hunting, but I have to win the lottery to be able to afford the “300 yard death ray”
-$3500 for the rifle
-$1700 Shmidt&Bender scope
-$850 Swarovski rangefinder
That what I would get, after I hit the PowerBall lottery.
So far my cut off distance is 200 yards with my SS fluted Omega and 3-9 Trijicon scope.
I came from the range today and it prints 1.5” 3 rd. groups at 150 yards and I killed two clay pidgins with two round at 200 yards. Kneeling I can hit pie plate at 200yards any time. Paid for whole set up $1100.
But the Bad Bull is exiting
Very interesting, especially that my state does not allow centrfire guns for hunting, but I have to win the lottery to be able to afford the “300 yard death ray”
-$3500 for the rifle
-$1700 Shmidt&Bender scope
-$850 Swarovski rangefinder
That what I would get, after I hit the PowerBall lottery.
So far my cut off distance is 200 yards with my SS fluted Omega and 3-9 Trijicon scope.
I came from the range today and it prints 1.5” 3 rd. groups at 150 yards and I killed two clay pidgins with two round at 200 yards. Kneeling I can hit pie plate at 200yards any time. Paid for whole set up $1100.
But the Bad Bull is exiting
10-20-2007, 05:50 PM
#8
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,408
RE: Very interesting
"300 yards with any rifle is a long way. Even centerfire rifles."
Yes it is.i have pushed theenvelope a few times with shots close to 200 yards with my Encore. i absolutely will not attempt a shot over 200 yards with any muzzleloader out there regardless of conditions. Too many thingscan go wrong on a 300 yard shot, even with a .30-06.
150 grains of Pyrodex is at the point of diminishing returns. Read an article where the writer and his gopher used a Savage smokeless powder M/L to test large charges of powder. Using 200 grains of Pyrodex the recoil was horrible and the velocity actually went down a little.
"hat being: max is 200 ishin good conditions on a relaxed animal, solid rest, verified range, positive shot angle (broadside or slight 1/4 away) and everything feels right with the trigger man. If not I back off and look for another opportunity."
+1
Yes it is.i have pushed theenvelope a few times with shots close to 200 yards with my Encore. i absolutely will not attempt a shot over 200 yards with any muzzleloader out there regardless of conditions. Too many thingscan go wrong on a 300 yard shot, even with a .30-06.
150 grains of Pyrodex is at the point of diminishing returns. Read an article where the writer and his gopher used a Savage smokeless powder M/L to test large charges of powder. Using 200 grains of Pyrodex the recoil was horrible and the velocity actually went down a little.
"hat being: max is 200 ishin good conditions on a relaxed animal, solid rest, verified range, positive shot angle (broadside or slight 1/4 away) and everything feels right with the trigger man. If not I back off and look for another opportunity."
+1
10-20-2007, 06:31 PM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Coralville, IA. USA
Posts: 3,802
RE: Very interesting
IMO,
Considering that most people aren't able to make reliable kill zone hits at 300 yards in field conditions with CF rifles, I'd consider attempting such a shot with ANY muzzleloader a highly questionable decision to say the least. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but just because it's possible doesn't make it ethical when there is a live animal at the other end. Muzzleloader bullets are flying ashtrays, even the "streamlined" polymer tipped ones. The BC's are low to very low, rarily breaking the 0.200 BC mark. Some manufacturers boast higher numbers, but I think that they are more marketing hype than truth. And if you use a heavy sabot bullet with a good-for-class BC, the MV is going to be low.
So the combination of low MV and poor BC make for a steep trajectory and rapid loss of velocity and energy. Out past 150 yards, even the fastest shooting ML's bullet is dropping like a rock, and by 300 yards you're talking about having to hold well over the animal to connect. In fact, figuring a (very generous) 0.200 BC and a 2200fps MV, a rifle zeroed at 200 yards would be apx 21" below the Line-of-sight (LOS) at 300 yards, with the apex being almost 5" over LOS at 110 yards, which would necessitate a hold-under at that range on deer-sized game.
Then there's the issue of wind drift. If you have even a 10mph, 90 deg, crosswind, at 300 yards the above bullet would have drifted apx 26". A 15mph wind would cause that bullet to drift 39". You'd better be darn good at estimating range and doping wind.
Compare to a .30-06, shooting a 150gr PSP (0.270 BC) at 2900fps, zeroed at 200 yards, will be about 9" below LOS at 300 yards and with a 10mph wind will have drifted apx. 12". These numbers would make for a tough shot at 300 yards, and there is no ML made that can come close to the external ballistics of a .30-06.
So my opinion boils down to this...no one has ANY business attempting shots at game at 300 yards with ANY ML. If you want to mess around at the range trying to punch holes in paper with your ML at 300 yards, knock yourself out. But you owe it to the animal take only shots where you are CONFIDENT that you can make a good clean shot into the vitals resulting in the quickest, most humane death possible. Anything less if unacceptable.
Mike
Considering that most people aren't able to make reliable kill zone hits at 300 yards in field conditions with CF rifles, I'd consider attempting such a shot with ANY muzzleloader a highly questionable decision to say the least. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but just because it's possible doesn't make it ethical when there is a live animal at the other end. Muzzleloader bullets are flying ashtrays, even the "streamlined" polymer tipped ones. The BC's are low to very low, rarily breaking the 0.200 BC mark. Some manufacturers boast higher numbers, but I think that they are more marketing hype than truth. And if you use a heavy sabot bullet with a good-for-class BC, the MV is going to be low.
So the combination of low MV and poor BC make for a steep trajectory and rapid loss of velocity and energy. Out past 150 yards, even the fastest shooting ML's bullet is dropping like a rock, and by 300 yards you're talking about having to hold well over the animal to connect. In fact, figuring a (very generous) 0.200 BC and a 2200fps MV, a rifle zeroed at 200 yards would be apx 21" below the Line-of-sight (LOS) at 300 yards, with the apex being almost 5" over LOS at 110 yards, which would necessitate a hold-under at that range on deer-sized game.
Then there's the issue of wind drift. If you have even a 10mph, 90 deg, crosswind, at 300 yards the above bullet would have drifted apx 26". A 15mph wind would cause that bullet to drift 39". You'd better be darn good at estimating range and doping wind.
Compare to a .30-06, shooting a 150gr PSP (0.270 BC) at 2900fps, zeroed at 200 yards, will be about 9" below LOS at 300 yards and with a 10mph wind will have drifted apx. 12". These numbers would make for a tough shot at 300 yards, and there is no ML made that can come close to the external ballistics of a .30-06.
So my opinion boils down to this...no one has ANY business attempting shots at game at 300 yards with ANY ML. If you want to mess around at the range trying to punch holes in paper with your ML at 300 yards, knock yourself out. But you owe it to the animal take only shots where you are CONFIDENT that you can make a good clean shot into the vitals resulting in the quickest, most humane death possible. Anything less if unacceptable.
Mike
10-20-2007, 06:34 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: 300 yards...?
ORIGINAL: snapda9
I have heard that the TC Pro hunter 50 cal. is capable of taking deer at 300 yards reliably. Is this true or is it a pipe dream? If not what is the gun capable of under the right conditions? And of course, in the right hands.
Thanks, Scott
I have heard that the TC Pro hunter 50 cal. is capable of taking deer at 300 yards reliably. Is this true or is it a pipe dream? If not what is the gun capable of under the right conditions? And of course, in the right hands.
Thanks, Scott