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300 yards...?
I have heard that the TC Pro hunter 50 cal. is capable of taking deer at 300 yards reliably. Is this true or is it a pipe dream? If not what is the gun capable of under the right conditions? And of course, in the right hands.
Thanks, Scott |
RE: 300 yards...?
They say the BadBull Muzzleloaders will shoot a 3inch group at 300yds and the Knight Longrange will shoot tight groups at 200yds.Take a look at the web site BadBull muzzleloaders.com They are great looking guns but look at the price[:'(].
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RE: 300 yards...?
First off let me welcome you to the forum..
300 yards with any rifle is a long way. Even centerfire rifles. If any muzzleloader was going to do it, I would guess that the Pro Hunter might be one of them. Personally I think people are trying to push a muzzleloader too far. When people ask me about how far they think their rifle is good for, I normally tell them with good optics, 200 yards in not out of the question and that will take some practice and load development. If I really had to get a muzzleloader and shoot 300 yards, then I would look at; Savage ML-10II,Omega, Pro Hunter, Encore, Knight Long Range Hunter, Knight Extreme, and some of the better top of the line CVA, Traditions, etc.. then I would tell you that you really should not shoot that far. Instead limit your shots to 150 yards - 200 yards max. Although there are people that can and do shoot further then that. I am not one of them. |
RE: 300 yards...?
they say the ultimate firearms bp xpress has documented kills of up to 500 yards. it used 200 grains of powder and a .45case for a primer.\
http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/ |
RE: 300 yards...?
I would say those wanting to shoot at 300 yards and beyond would be better served to buy a .270 Weatherby Mag or similar.
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RE: 300 yards...?
The bullets we have to choose are a limiting factor, with low BC's they lend themselves poorly to long range and highly suspect of variables such as wind drift, etc. For one to be proficient with any weapon shooting longer then "normal" ranges it takes a big commitment in trigger time and shooting in all conditions/situations. Off the bench is much different then in the field. Ingeneral the limiting factor isn't the equipment but the user?? Though for those who are willing to put forth the effort and have the ability longer shots are doable. However for the majority of hunters 200 yard max with a scoped Ml should be the max.
BTW I own a savage 10II and shoot smokeless powder, it has shot some pretty nice groups at ranges further then 200 yards but off the bench vs in the field are 2 different worlds. Itreat it likemy other MLs, That being: max is 200 ishin good conditions on a relaxed animal, solid rest, verified range, positive shot angle (broadside or slight 1/4 away) and everything feels right with the trigger man. If not I back off and look for another opportunity. |
Very interesting
[Thank you for posting this info. I am very impressed and do not see why it could not be possible from good solid rest. Off hand I would not shoot at the game 300 yards away even with 300 Win. Magnum (my Saco cenrfire).
Very interesting, especially that my state does not allow centrfire guns for hunting, but I have to win the lottery to be able to afford the “300 yard death ray” -$3500 for the rifle -$1700 Shmidt&Bender scope -$850 Swarovski rangefinder That what I would get, after I hit the PowerBall lottery. So far my cut off distance is 200 yards with my SS fluted Omega and 3-9 Trijicon scope. I came from the range today and it prints 1.5” 3 rd. groups at 150 yards and I killed two clay pidgins with two round at 200 yards. Kneeling I can hit pie plate at 200yards any time. Paid for whole set up $1100. But the Bad Bull is exiting |
RE: Very interesting
"300 yards with any rifle is a long way. Even centerfire rifles."
Yes it is.i have pushed theenvelope a few times with shots close to 200 yards with my Encore. i absolutely will not attempt a shot over 200 yards with any muzzleloader out there regardless of conditions. Too many thingscan go wrong on a 300 yard shot, even with a .30-06. 150 grains of Pyrodex is at the point of diminishing returns. Read an article where the writer and his gopher used a Savage smokeless powder M/L to test large charges of powder. Using 200 grains of Pyrodex the recoil was horrible and the velocity actually went down a little. "hat being: max is 200 ishin good conditions on a relaxed animal, solid rest, verified range, positive shot angle (broadside or slight 1/4 away) and everything feels right with the trigger man. If not I back off and look for another opportunity." +1 |
RE: Very interesting
IMO,
Considering that most people aren't able to make reliable kill zone hits at 300 yards in field conditions with CF rifles, I'd consider attempting such a shot with ANY muzzleloader a highly questionable decision to say the least. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but just because it's possible doesn't make it ethical when there is a live animal at the other end. Muzzleloader bullets are flying ashtrays, even the "streamlined" polymer tipped ones. The BC's are low to very low, rarily breaking the 0.200 BC mark. Some manufacturers boast higher numbers, but I think that they are more marketing hype than truth. And if you use a heavy sabot bullet with a good-for-class BC, the MV is going to be low. So the combination of low MV and poor BC make for a steep trajectory and rapid loss of velocity and energy. Out past 150 yards, even the fastest shooting ML's bullet is dropping like a rock, and by 300 yards you're talking about having to hold well over the animal to connect. In fact, figuring a (very generous) 0.200 BC and a 2200fps MV, a rifle zeroed at 200 yards would be apx 21" below the Line-of-sight (LOS) at 300 yards, with the apex being almost 5" over LOS at 110 yards, which would necessitate a hold-under at that range on deer-sized game. Then there's the issue of wind drift. If you have even a 10mph, 90 deg, crosswind, at 300 yards the above bullet would have drifted apx 26". A 15mph wind would cause that bullet to drift 39". You'd better be darn good at estimating range and doping wind. Compare to a .30-06, shooting a 150gr PSP (0.270 BC) at 2900fps, zeroed at 200 yards, will be about 9" below LOS at 300 yards and with a 10mph wind will have drifted apx. 12". These numbers would make for a tough shot at 300 yards, and there is no ML made that can come close to the external ballistics of a .30-06. So my opinion boils down to this...no one has ANY business attempting shots at game at 300 yards with ANY ML. If you want to mess around at the range trying to punch holes in paper with your ML at 300 yards, knock yourself out. But you owe it to the animal take only shots where you are CONFIDENT that you can make a good clean shot into the vitals resulting in the quickest, most humane death possible. Anything less if unacceptable. Mike |
RE: 300 yards...?
ORIGINAL: snapda9 I have heard that the TC Pro hunter 50 cal. is capable of taking deer at 300 yards reliably. Is this true or is it a pipe dream? If not what is the gun capable of under the right conditions? And of course, in the right hands. Thanks, Scott |
RE: Very interesting
ORIGINAL: driftrider IMO, Considering that most people aren't able to make reliable kill zone hits at 300 yards in field conditions with CF rifles, I'd consider attempting such a shot with ANY muzzleloader a highly questionable decision to say the least. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but just because it's possible doesn't make it ethical when there is a live animal at the other end. Muzzleloader bullets are flying ashtrays, even the "streamlined" polymer tipped ones. The BC's are low to very low, rarily breaking the 0.200 BC mark. Some manufacturers boast higher numbers, but I think that they are more marketing hype than truth. And if you use a heavy sabot bullet with a good-for-class BC, the MV is going to be low. So the combination of low MV and poor BC make for a steep trajectory and rapid loss of velocity and energy. Out past 150 yards, even the fastest shooting ML's bullet is dropping like a rock, and by 300 yards you're talking about having to hold well over the animal to connect. In fact, figuring a (very generous) 0.200 BC and a 2200fps MV, a rifle zeroed at 200 yards would be apx 21" below the Line-of-sight (LOS) at 300 yards, with the apex being almost 5" over LOS at 110 yards, which would necessitate a hold-under at that range on deer-sized game. Then there's the issue of wind drift. If you have even a 10mph, 90 deg, crosswind, at 300 yards the above bullet would have drifted apx 26". A 15mph wind would cause that bullet to drift 39". You'd better be darn good at estimating range and doping wind. Compare to a .30-06, shooting a 150gr PSP (0.270 BC) at 2900fps, zeroed at 200 yards, will be about 9" below LOS at 300 yards and with a 10mph wind will have drifted apx. 12". These numbers would make for a tough shot at 300 yards, and there is no ML made that can come close to the external ballistics of a .30-06. So my opinion boils down to this...no one has ANY business attempting shots at game at 300 yards with ANY ML. If you want to mess around at the range trying to punch holes in paper with your ML at 300 yards, knock yourself out. But you owe it to the animal take only shots where you are CONFIDENT that you can make a good clean shot into the vitals resulting in the quickest, most humane death possible. Anything less if unacceptable. Mike |
RE: 300 yards...?
I have a 10ML-II too, and I wouldn't attempt it even with the hottest loads. The problem come in with how do you zero the rifle. If you zeroed the rifle at 300 yards, it'd still be one heck of a shot unless it's dead still and you have the exact range. Even 10 yards off on a range estimate will be about a 3" high/low. 20 yards off and you've probably (hopefully) missed completely. Combine this with the fact that just makeing a good POA=POI shot at 300 yards in field conditions with a sub-MOA rifle is very hard, and you might as well just close your eyes, pull the trigger and pray.;)
Mike |
RE: Very interesting
Accuracy and killing efficiency at long range is conditioned by two thing's. One is the quality of equipment, and the other is the ability of the shooter. I have witnessed some long range events where shooter's were shooting with long range Gibbs and Whitworth rifle's. You would not believe what these guy's can do. To them 300 yards is a short distance.
300 yards to an experienced rifleman with the proper equipment is not a problem. All it takes is practice, and a little money to buy the proper equipment. I am by no means a ballistic expert, but I imagine a 525 grain conical at 1600-1800 fps can kill deer a long way out. Remember energy is not everything. If energy was the only factor then how could a buffalo hunter kill a buffalo at 1,000 yards??And yes the trajectory would be a rainbow, but there are guy's who do it everyday. I shoot BP in my Sharp's rifle in 45-70 with a 405 grain cast bullet. I am extremely confident in my killing ability to 200 yards. I have been practicing to 400 yards-but I would not attempt that shot. Hopefully by this deer season I will be confident out to 250 or 300 yards. Tom.  In this picture you are looking at $2500 worth of equipment. Long distance shooting is expensive. |
RE: Very interesting
"But you owe it to the animal take only shots where you are CONFIDENT that you can make a good clean shot into the vitals resulting in the quickest, most humane death possible. Anything less if unacceptable."
Bingo!!! The cause of muzzleloader hunting is greatly hurt by advertising hype.Saw an ad in a hunting magazine where Hodgdon Power claims that two oftheir spiffy new Triple Seven Magnum pelletsare capable of propelling a bullet to more muzzle energy than a .30-06. This is total bull$&!). A 150 grain, .30 caliber bullet leaving the muzzle at 2,900 fps generates over 2,800 foot pounds of energy. The 250 grain SST bulletpushed by two TSM pellets generates less than 2,000 foot pounds of energy. Furthermore, the 150 grain bullet will retain thatenergy much better than theshort fat .45 caliber. Two TSM pellets give a 250 grain Shockwave a velocity of 1,850 fps-the same as 100 grains of Pyrodex RS.Lots of newfolks are going to believeHodgdon's totally outrageous claim and try to shoot deer at very long rangesusing the magical new propellant. |
RE: Very interesting
Falcon I agree with your premise about the advertising. But they are not falsely advertising. Remember a 405 grain bullet at 2100 fps(from a 45-70) yields about 3600 ft# of energy. If you drop that to 1600 or 1800 fps it will still be well above 2000 ft# of energy. And two pellets will push a 405 at that velocity.
When you talk to long range shooter's they do not use modern so called BP bullet's. They use hand casted lead bullet's in weight's well over 500 or even 600 grains. Those big bullets will travel and kill a long way out. I think the Gibb's 45 caliber bullet weigh's 525 grains?? Some one please correct me if that is wrong, but I think it is right. Tom. |
RE: Very interesting
I make a point to limit myself to a lasered200 yards as a maximum...with my rifle load combo.
Probably cheated that a time or two tho'..... In the Big Picture, 200 yards reallyain't jack. |
RE: Very interesting
falcon
Here is the statement and if you look in the reloading manuals you will find it to be true.... remember thay are not talking velocity thay are talking energy... The new Magnums deliver incredible energy. With just two Pellets, a modern 209-primed muzzleloader and a 250 grain bullet can deliver more energy at the muzzle than a 30-06 with a 200 grain bullet; and will match the performance of the monstrous 460 S&W Magnum. Tom, who is also a competitive muzzleloader with numerous State and National titles to his credit, says, “These Pellets provide extreme accuracy with an extended lethal range; they are a sure winner for this years’ deer season.” Energy level of a 250 grain .452 @ 2000fps is about 2220fpe Energy level of a 200 grain .308 @ 2100fps is about 2154fpe Energy level of a 180 grain .308 @ 2400fpd is about 2302fpe So the add is correct even though it is misleading.... but the statement is true for the most part... |
RE: Very interesting
I've always been a bigger fan of shot placement than of "energy"...........
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RE: Very interesting
I enjoy punching holes in paper at long range. I've had a couple muzzleloaders that would print very respectable groups at 200 yards and beyond.
I also enjoy deer hunting, and love to see just how close I can get. The Omega that would shoot moa groups did a great job of dropping a deer at 60 yards in it's tracks! :D In other words my theory is: For target shooting long range is fun, but for hunting get real close and put the bullet where it will drop the critter quickly! ;) |
RE: Very interesting
I want to start out saying thanks to everyone for their input. It's good to know that when you have a question there a people of knowlege that are so willing to share.:D
I had assumed the 300 yards was a iffy at best, but now it is confirmed in my mind. I know there is a big difference between paper and the real thing! Once again.... Thanks, Scott |
RE: Very interesting
"Energy level of a 250 grain .452 @ 2000fps is about 2220fpe"
Read the NRA test dataon TSM pellets.Two TSM pellets do notgive 2000 fps with that bullet.Towlsey in his test got 1850 fps,same as 100 grains of Pyrodex. Their statement is not true. Talked withsome friends this evening who have extensively chronographed Pyrodex products.They have known for a long time that Pyrodex RS, Pyrodex Select and 777 give very similiar velocities with the same load. Internet hype had lead my dumb butt to believe that777 was so much more powerful that RS or Select. So i went and bought some: Soon it will be gone and i will go back to RS. |
RE: 300 yards...?
I did have an encore and it would shoot unbelieveabe at 100 yds and good out to 200 yds,would I try it on a deer at 300 NO because I have never shot it past 200 yds.
I do have 2 savages would I shoot a deer at 300 yds YES if conditions were right and I had a good rest.Why because I have put a few thousand rounds through a lot of savage muzzleloaders since they came out.And I am confident out to 300 yds.I have only had a close chance of taken one at 300 one time 2 yrs ago the conditions were right ,I had a good rest but the deer was faceing me and wouldn't give me a broadside shot so I didn't shoot. Last year I took 3 deer with the savage and the average yds was 196 yds.Year before 4 deer and the avg. was 166 yd.Lucked out and got one at 50yds (head shot ) 300yds is a long ways even with a savage and I luck out with some great groups some.I put 1500 plus rounds through 2 savages 3 yrs ago in one year.That is a lot of time behind the trigger not counting the expense. The load I usually shoot drops 7.1 in at 200yds and 26.8 in at 300 yds.My balistic scopes are set up for dead on at 1,2 and 300 yds. Just got a new thumbhole stock savage last friday and shooting the same load I have shot a few 1 in groups at 100 and put 2 out of 2 shots inside an 8 in circle at 300. This is not bragging how I can shoot,its showing results of many hours of practice,I shoot at least one day a week many different calibers at 100 and 300 yds.I am sure that if you shoot as much as I do you could do better or at least the same. Where I shoot;  100 yds with the savage;  200yds;  300yds   Best group so far measures less than an inch 3-shot group at 300.Really got lucky on this one.  Didn't want to leave out the knight and encore;  |
RE: Very interesting
falcon
I do not know for sure but i think you will find that they put the wrong information in the wrong column... there is a lot of errors in that report... I will tell you I am shooting 110 grains of T7-2f under a 250 grain bullet and shooting it at 1900 FPE wouldn't take much more to get that to 2000. Just not sure I want to go there. I really think that whole test is seriously flawed |
RE: Very interesting
Duplicate post. Not sure what happened when I edited my post. Strange.
Mike |
RE: Very interesting
ORIGINAL: sabotloader falcon Here is the statement and if you look in the reloading manuals you will find it to be true.... remember thay are not talking velocity thay are talking energy... The new Magnums deliver incredible energy. With just two Pellets, a modern 209-primed muzzleloader and a 250 grain bullet can deliver more energy at the muzzle than a 30-06 with a 200 grain bullet; and will match the performance of the monstrous 460 S&W Magnum. Tom, who is also a competitive muzzleloader with numerous State and National titles to his credit, says, “These Pellets provide extreme accuracy with an extended lethal range; they are a sure winner for this years’ deer season.” Energy level of a 250 grain .452 @ 2000fps is about 2220fpe Energy level of a 200 grain .308 @ 2100fps is about 2154fpe Energy level of a 180 grain .308 @ 2400fpd is about 2302fpe So the add is correct even though it is misleading.... but the statement is true for the most part... I don't know where you're getting your data, but a .30-06 will push a 180gr pill quite a bit faster than 2400fps, unless maybe if you're shooting it from a Encore pistol barrel. 2700-2750fps is much more realistic, and a 180gr bullet at 2700fps produces 2915 ft/lbs at the muzzle. The data I have for 200gr bullets suggests that 2500fps is realistic from the .30-06, which would produce 2775 ft/lbs. The .30-06, 200gr pill has as much energy at 150 yards as the above ML load at the muzzle. The 180gr bullet gets out to 170 yards before falling below 2220 ft/lbs. Then when you factor in sectional density, the .30-06 will still outperform the .452cal bullet, ft/lb for ft/lb. Not quite "truth in advertising". Mike |
RE: Very interesting
driftrider
I do stand corrected I was quoting a 220 grain bullet - but even with the amended information his statement is still true on the face.. That is exactly what I said the whole statement is mis-leading, but meant to be that way. Chris H was correct in his statement - he never said it was faster than any 200 grain load he just said it had greater energy... so if you look in the Sierra book you will find the lowest recommended load for several powders is 2200 fps second with an energy production of 2149 (page 551) - there are hotter loads available but Chris never said that, he just stated that he could achieve greater energy than an 06 shooting a 200 grain bullet. He never mentions that the energy of the 250 falls off rather abruptly. Further on page 549 you will find the base load of a 180 grain load from an 06 is 2400fps with 2300fpe that is why he couldn't say 180 grain... Nevermind that there are faster loads suggested for each bullet... He is not trying to sale 06 ammo he wants you to buy the T7 mag pellets - so he put out one fact and let you assume the rest unless you look it up. This is from the fifth edition 2nd. printing of the Sierra Manual Not quite "truth in advertising". |
RE: Very interesting
Yeah, I suppose if you look at it that way, it's not EXACTLY a lie[:@], but it is intentionally misleading. In fact it could be considered a lie of omission, since he did not state that he was comparing the minimum loads for the cartridge, but instead implied that the loads were typical of the .30-06. One way or another, it is pure horse**** wrapped in a nice pretty package. I guess the moral of the story is, read all advertising hype with a critical mind. Unfortunately there are many out there who believe anything they read in a gun rag. These days, most articals in gun magazines are just literary infomercials packaged to look like an "expert" evaluations.
But I still wouldn't take a shot at 300 yards with a ML! ;)[:@] Mike |
RE: Very interesting
driftrider
But I still wouldn't take a shot at 300 yards with a ML! Unfortunately there are many out there who believe anything they read in a gun rag. What it does in the case of a ML is sell the white collor people in the fish and game to believe that the ML is greater than it is.... Idaho is caught in that right now... Even the Savage is cutting into that out here in the west. We do not have the population of deer that exist back across the plains... |
RE: Very interesting
I think one thing that is being overlooked too is foot pounds of energy at 300 yds. I just ran the ballistics on the 300 grain SST and at 300 yards (muzzle velocity 1800 fps) is 845. I've always been told to use 1000 fps for deer. I did take a caribou with an Encore at 225 yards with a 300 grain SST with 110 grains of T7 this summer. With the crosswind, I probably had 12-15" of bullet drift. I held just over the top of the back and hit about 8" down from the spine. Hit the caribou in the lungs, great passthru shot but had it been a whitetail, it would have been gut shot!
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RE: Very interesting
"One way or another, it is pure horse**** wrapped in a nice pretty package."
Kind of like a used car dealerfailing to tell you that thebeautiful 04 Duramax pickupyou are looking atis a Katrina victim.;):D:D |
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