RE: recovered bullets
 

"Now I went thru this entire thread and I didn't see any pictures from you, can you give either a URL link or post the picture in here."

"Falcon, Hook us up with the pics. Thanks, Greg"

Look at post #7, page 1 and post 17, page 2.Got to clickon "attachment" and then open the photo.For some reason i could not get it to just put in a picture.

RE: recovered bullets
 

This is falcon's SW.The mushroom is perfect, beautiful for a 192 yard shot. It lost about 1/3 of it's weight. Was the shank intact or mushed down?If the shank was intact,then it would have lost little weight, is my guess. If the shank was not intact then my guess is the jacket separated from the core and took some lead with it, like what happened to Sabotloader when he shot into the clay/sand bank.It did the jobhowever. My analysis of this bullet is:
It did the job,mushroomed perfectly but lost 1/3 of weight.My "ideal" bulletretains nearly 100% of weight and mushrooms to about 3/4" with a.45 cal bullet, shooting thru the game animal, with a well placed shot behind the shoulder.If I miss behind the shoulder and the bullet hits the shoulder, the bullet go thru the shoulder and into the vitals and is on the off side of the animal.
Chap

RE: recovered bullets
 

This is Falcon's XTP 240g. How much does the bullet weigh? It looks broken up to me but it did the job. I prefer the bullet to loose no weight or very little. Chap

RE: recovered bullets
 

Thank you Falcon. I didn't see those bullets pictures in the origonal post sorry.My comments are on each post. Chap

RE: recovered bullets
 

Thanks, Chap.

That 240 Grain .44 caliber XTP now weighs exactly 170 grains. It is in two pieces and all the petals are intact. Not great retained weight but not too shabbyfor having killed two deer.

RE: recovered bullets
 

I agree not shabby for killing two deer, there is no doubt they do the job. Chap Gleason

RE: recovered bullets
 

If any one has recovered a 200gr 40 cal Shock Wave I would love to hear about it and see it if they have a pic, I have used they with excellant results but never been able to recover one. Lee

RE: recovered bullets
 

I was wondering if anyone has ftried the 45 long colt w/sabot?

RE: recovered bullets
 

The 250 grain .452 bullets are made for the long colt.

RE: recovered bullets
 

I am a neophyte compared to people posting on this thread, and I have some questions.

I simply just don't understand all this talk about ML bullets expanding, or how people are not recovering deer hit with 250 and 300 grain bullets. I saw a bunch shot just this year and none of the deer went anywhere. All were hit with good shots in the vitals. I later learned the same thing from everyone at my gun club - no issues with recovering deer. I have shot some deer with my 30-30 and 170 grain hollow point bullets, and I have long been told this gun/bullet is responsible for many thousands of deer. The exit holes look like the entrance hole from a 300 grain ML bulllet. When I was younger I used to work in a butcher shop, and I was always amazed when the ML guys brought their deer in. Again, entrance holes that were bigger than exit holes on deer hit with centerfire rifles.

I have seen a few deer that were not recovered, and they were from bad shooting. The shooters all claimed they made perfect shots, only to be overruled by the evidence we later found (stomach contents on the ground). These fellows are great from the bench, but never practice with open sights (much to my annoyance) and it cost them in the field.

I keep reading stories about people making good shots on deer with appropriate loads and bullets and finding no trace of blood, hair, etc. I have simply never seen it in the field.

Can anyone post pictures and measurements of recovered bullets from centerfire rifles for comparison?

Also, for the folks who didn't recover their deer, can you explain the circumstances? Distance, shooting position, etc. Were you able to 100% confirm the deer in question was shot in the kill zone?

RE: recovered bullets
 

Welcome Tom, we all agree that bullet placement is #1, but we have all seen limping deer and deer with previous holes in them from poorly placed shots. The question then becomes "getting into the vitals" with a less than "broadside shot". So that is why most of us are interesed in bullet performance, penetration, expansion, weight retention and shoot thru. Tom it does happen with 250g and 300g bullets,not all bullets arecreated equal and I agree it is shot placement that is #1. However some bullets penetrate and kill better than others.

As for unrecoved deer,this was a threadI wrote in2004, when I was uneducatedabout different bullets, expansion, penetration, etc. I just followed the lead of many others, whoshot PBs:

http://www.the-gleasons.com/Bullet%20penetration.doc

I was really really bothered by my hit on the unrecoved buck, and I then sought to understand my equiptment, my shooting, my shot selectionand myself better so it didn't happen again. I never recoved the bullet of course, since I never recoved the deer, but the exact same thing happened to my brother last year---- 150g of 777 pelletsand 295g PB Platimuum. Deer shot at 30 yards and hit in the shoulder, the bullet fragmented, pieces on the ground with hair and hide and meat.Itfragmented becauseit was going too fast. He didn't know at the time that PB were designed to shoot at low speeds--- 1200 to 1400 FPS. He NOW shoots Harvester SaberTooth 300g, with 3 777 pellets. I don't want to start the PB debate again, it is veryspirited debate and it usually goes nowhere (most PB lovers are unconvinced), anyone who wants to read about PB fragmentation can see this:

http://www.the-gleasons.com/powerbelt_page.htm


As for the rifle bullets on this ML board, that is best placed on the Rifle section of the forum.
Chap Gleason

RE: recovered bullets
 

"I have seen a few deer that were not recovered, and they were from bad shooting. The shooters all claimed they made perfect shots, only to be overruled by the evidence we later found (stomach contents on the ground). These fellows are great from the bench, but never practice with open sights (much to my annoyance) and it cost them in the field."

Welcome Tom: Additionally, lots of folks never practice shooting from field positions.i like to play "what if" when still hunting. "What if"a deersuddenly shows upat some range or the other. Is it possible to get a rest on a nearby tree? Doi have time to get into a good sitting position? Can i make the shot offhand?

Yes, i know some hunters who are charter members of the "shoot em in the guts bunch." One of these guys guts shoots a deer every year and then blames everything except his poor shooting. Following upbadly shot deer is a part time career for a couple offriends and myself.

RE: recovered bullets
 

falcon, the worst part of it is the fact that those people that do that give us all a bad reputation, I know one of them to he claims its a matter of luck and I am just lucky brcause every one I have shot at ended up in the freezer, he wounded 6 last year, he took his wife out and tried to track them they would look for 6 or 8 hr, they followed one blood trail for 2 mi. I just wish I had an answer preferably one that would make those kind stay home. Lee

RE: recovered bullets
 

falcon, the worst part of it is the fact that those people that do that give us all a bad reputation, I know one of them to he claims its a matter of luck and I am just lucky brcause every one I have shot at ended up in the freezer, he wounded 6 last year, he took his wife out and tried to track them they would look for 6 or 8 hr, they followed one blood trail for 2 mi. I just wish I had an answer preferably one that would make those kind stay home. Lee

These guys give all of us a bad name.Several yearsagoone of our local animal wounderslet agut shotdeer get over the fence and onto I-44 during pretty heavy traffic. It never got hit by a car, just ran around pitifully until it laid down and died right between the lanes. This is fine publicity forhunters.

RE: recovered bullets
 

I have personally only lost one deer in my life and that was shot at with a 44 mag. pistol at about 40 yards. I don't know where it was hit but it did bleed and on snow it was easy to track. Followed for several miles and was unable to recover it. Bad shooting for sure but the sight picture looked great when I touched her off. I could not find where it hit a branch or brush; don't know for sure what happened. Sometimes things just happen.

I have used roundballs and hunt with a large group every season. Some deer have been hit well and took a great deal of effort to locate them; one in particular was 2 seasons ago. It was shot by a friend with a TC Hawken and a .490 ball at approx. 100 yards. The ball was as close to a perfect heart shot as possible an not be a direct hit. We followed the small drops of blood for about a mile. The deer was found standing under a pine tree and shot again by my friend. This deer could have been lost very easily if not for the fresh snow cover. The second shot was about 4" from the first and the deer dropped at that shot. We don't know how in the world that deer went as far as it did; but it just goes to show how things happen sometime.

Shot placement is key; there is no question about that. I am a believer in heavy bullets and modest velocity for taking deer inside 100 yards. I do know that roundballs have taken and will continue to take deer; but I believe there are better choices that provide cleaner kills. Matching velocity, accuracy, and the correct projectile is the key to effective performance. I have found an exception to my preference for heavy bullets and that has been in the .44 mag. revolver use. It apppears that bullets in the 200-210 grains work much better than the 240 and above bullets on deer size game. It may be that they would be a good match to my fast twist muzzleloader flinter as well. I have only had the fast twist flinter for 1 season and I have not even tried the 200 grain weight bullets out of it for accuracy yet.

RE: recovered bullets
 

Well it looks like this post has played out, but it was a great thread. Can someone who is new to MLing summarize what they learned from the threads on this topic?
Chap Gleason

RE: recovered bullets
 

Here is a couple.The one on the Left is a 385gr. Great Plains Bullet taken from a Hog shot at 80 yards.The one on the right is a .54Cal. Ball taken from a Buck shot at 110 yards.



big rockpile

RE: recovered bullets
 

Mossie, well I know they work and have a place, but I do not believe heavy bullets are the key to any thing but very large animals,I go to 300 gr for elk big bear moose and buffalo; for deer and boar the 200gr 50/40 Shock Wave and XTP are the best I have used and the 250 Gold Dot is next so is the 250XTP I hit them 3 to 4 inches above the heart with both bow and gun. I took 110 deer with a bow and 34 th with a gun this year and still have one tag left. The only deer I ever lost was with a bow and I lead him to much and hit the brisket in front of the fore leg I think only one blade cut him. and that was 45 years a go with a long bow. Lee

RE: recovered bullets
 

I agree that many are probably bad shots. However, not all. I shot 2 deer with the 300 grain XTP and didn't recover them. They shot great on paper. No deer fever or anything. Could find blood and hair but no deer. That's when I changed to the precision rifle all lead bullet. I have recovered every deer that I have shot with it. I didn't change anything in my shooting style etc, just changed bullets. So, some may be shooter but some is also bullet related. Just my 2 cents. Thanks, Greg

RE: recovered bullets
 

Ok I've found I like 200-250gr. Bullets on Deer.Me and Jerry Marten was talking this over,even with Modern Ammo.The heavier Bullets plow through,Deer tend to hold their Blood in and run.Where with a Lighter Bullet may hold back,bounce around take time to do major internal damage.

Me I've tried very heavy Bullets,Deer run,maybe just a short ways,but they still run.I find myself going back to my Lighter Bullets,drop them in their tracks 99% of the time.

But hey I've only been at this 45 years still learning.

big rockpile

RE: recovered bullets
 

big rockpile, I think we all learn a bit here and a bit there, I do believe that the best thing about this particular forum is that we learn a lot from each other, and some times its good to have your ideas confirmed orblown away before you make a mistake too. Lee

RE: recovered bullets
 

Here in Pennsylvania we are not allowed to use the 40 caliber bullets in the primitive season so I bought some 200 grain .430 bullets and mmp green sabots for my 1:28 twist flintlock and was glad they werejust as accurate as the .452 250 grain xtp bullets in the black sabots. I know it's not the same bullet but it's the best I can use.

I have 2 barrels for the RMC flintlock stock. One is 24" and the other is 28". I can use two bullet sizes and charge rates without re-sighting. I wonder if any of you have used the .429 210 grain Gold Dots? I think I will order a box when I get the .452 250 grain Gold Dots.

I am saving the newspapers for a penetration and expansion test of the 200-250 grain bullets from my fast twist GM barreled flintlock. I think I will hang a welders glove in front of a 5 gal. bucket of wet newspaper. Pics coming soon. Thanks to all.

RE: recovered bullets
 

Mossie, well under the circumstances that would be my choice to its a very good bullet. Lee

RE: recovered bullets
 

I am interesed in seeing that test with a FL, especially with the Gold Dot. What is the reason for the Welders Glove? Chap Gleason

RE: recovered bullets
 

I'd be interested to know as well. To simulate a deers hide??

RE: recovered bullets
 

Makes sense. Thanks Chap

RE: recovered bullets
 

Recovered T/C shockwave 250 grain Bonded bullet. It was found on the off side between the ribs and the right front shoulder blade of a cow elk taken at 52 yards. It weighed 202.5 grains (81% retained weight).As you can see it opened up to about the size of a quarter.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c142/bhines57/DSCF0019.jpg

RE: recovered bullets
 

That is very good expansion and retained weight. Did all the petals stay on the bullet? Are they thick petals or rather thin? This was a regular SST right. Chap Gleason

RE: recovered bullets
 

Chap Gleason

The bullet was a T/C Shockwave Bonded (Blue tip), I think the standard Shockwave is not a bonded bullet and has a yellow tip. I lost 2 petals off the bullet and the petals are not thick like the Barnes bullets. The inside of the bullethas a lead core and is bonded like a partition.The bullet initially hit a rib on impact and may account for the lost petals since the entryhole was very large, much larger than the bullet pictured. I guess the impact caused the rib to explode and enlarge the hole. I had a piece of rib cut the stomach and that was not too bad.

PS. To answer your question on the HornadySST I guess it is about the same since I belive Hornady make the bulletsfor T/C.

RE: recovered bullets
 

Bullet,or jacket recovered from a buck shot at 162 yds. front on shot through the chest. Bullet 250gr Shock Wave/3 50gr. Pyrodex pellets,Fed 209A primer. http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d86/rks1949/Hunting/NewProHunterBuck162yds009.jpg

RE: recovered bullets
 

Yes, that is what I figured that they are not as strong petals as the Barnes. It stayed together much better than rks1949 regular SW, which is great. I think they will do they job.
Chap