RE: recovered bullets
 

Wow, most of the time I agree w/most of these guys but I'm kinda shocked on this one. So much talk about how the XTPs don't perform is interesting. I've been shooting them in MLs since the early-mid 90's. I've yet to lose a deer w/them and I think the farthest I had to track one (which really wasn't a track) was about 30yrds. I'd say (guessing of course because I don't have exact numbers) 90% of them were pass throughs. I've shot through shoulders, lungs, neck and a couple chest shots (I do remember one of those not passing through because it was lodged between meat and hide on the hind quarter (still in its jacket))Last year I hit a limb about the size of a sharpie, cut it in two, and still got a pass through.

Hence why I'm a little confused why people are having issues w/them. Over the years I've shot from 80-110 grains all having the same performance. Not saying that the GD isn't a great bullet because it is. 'Dance w/the one that brung ya' I guess...

Shooting 300g Mag

RE: recovered bullets
 

I was as surprised as anyone. My hunting partner shot them out of his knight with the same amount of powder and does OK. Ya never know.

RE: recovered bullets
 

TNHagies, The XTP's do preform well with in the enevlope they were designed for,I think most of use agree on that; a few of us have tried to push them beyond that and found out where the limits on a particular bullet are.
A lot of what was said related more to what the minimum that they could go down to depending on which one you are talking about like the 250 is max for best results at 1850, I never found a max on the 300gr. I used the 250 in 4 different rifles with good results but my loads were always under 120gr RS [IF you use a hotter powder like777 or black mag it might be a bit less. The 240 has I believe to different designs one of them is very tough the 230 was designed for low velocity so it does not take much to blow it up. Lee

RE: recovered bullets
 

I guess that can be why I'm not seeing the results that you guys are talking about because I've never pushed any of them really hard. 110 is the max I've ever shot just because I don't feel like the extra 40 grainshas any added bonus(for me). Guess that's why I've never had one blow up on me. Pehaps I should go back and read again, it sounded like people were saying they blow up regardless of the charge.

RE: recovered bullets
 

"Cast bullets" shoot thru and penetrate deeply, but they are not best for hunting since they don't expand and cause large wound channel."

There is more than one kind of cast bullet. WhatChap saya (or was that what someone else said? I'm confused.)would be true only for hard cast. Pure lead casts expand very well.

And I don't think anyone would suggest radically changing a load that is a proven workhorse in your use. The XTP chart seems a bitdeflated so far as speed limitations for many of the variations. XTPs are not all bad in my limited experience using them.

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I used to shoot the maxi balls and those didnt expand for chit. Lost 2 deer my first year of muzzleloading due to that crap.
One had double drop tines too [&:]

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looks like good expansion to me, but it is NOT a Maxi-ball. Even with those FG, were you casting your own or using store bought? When you cast your own you can know (within reason) what they are made of ...

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Store bought.

I only cast roundballs myself.

The maxi ball i was using left a small splatter of blood that lasted 6 feet and then nothing.

The deer i ended up getting needed 2 shots and even those didnt exit or mushroom any. And that was one heck of a small deer.

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Those Maxi's shot great on paper for me, but I never actually took a deer with one. Given your results, sort of glad I didn't.

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Same here, they shot excellent out of the cva blazer i had but damn it was a new ball game on those 3 deer i shot that year. Two of them were the biggest mule deer ive ever seen to this day.

RE: recovered bullets
 

"110 is the max I've ever shot just because I don't feel like the extra 40 grainshas any added bonus(for me). Guess that's why I've never had one blow up on me."

100 grains of Pyrodex pellets or 100 grains of loose Pyrodex is what i use with the 240 grain .44 caliber XTP in my CVA Staghorn. They have performed in an outstanding manner for me.For a couple of yearsi did use 130-150 grains of Pyrodex and the .44 caliber XTP bullet. Never had any problem with that bullet killing at high velocity either.

There is a lot of bad hype out there about the 240 grain XTP bullet and the 250 grain SST bullet.If you are capable of putting either bullet in the right spot it will kill well for you.

i have tracked a lot of wounded deer for other hunters: We listen to them wail and caterwaul about every muzzleloader bullet made. These guys are always looking for that magic bullet that will turn a gut shot into a bang flop. That bullet ain't out there. Asurprisingly large number of hunters will not even look for blood or attempt to track a wounded animal.

Afew years ago i saw a guy put a bad shoton a 6x6 elk. He and his buddy failed to track the animal. Asked them why. They said it was not badly wounded and would survive. Tried to tell them that the animal was badly wounded but they would not listen. Asked them if i found it could i keep it. Theylaughed and said yes. Followed the blood trail about one-quarter mile and there was that elk-dead and mine.

RE: recovered bullets
 

Chap

Saw you post early this morning, but did not have time to get his in until this afternnon.

Here is what Speer shows for their "ideal" expansion...

RE: recovered bullets
 

TNHagies

I hope you did not take anything I posted as saying the Hornady would not perform, it was never meant that way at all. I know the Hornady's have worked for bunches of people and they will continue to work for them - no doubt in my mind... But I also believe that the Gold Dot is a better performing bullet in most conditions - only because of my torture experiments which is nothing like shooting an animal. I have just proven to myself that the Gold Dot is a tougher bullet - but it should be because it is bonded and the XTP's are not.

I could not agree with you more... It is a matter of confidence - if you can not hunt with confidence maybe you should not be out there. As I have said I lost my confidence in Hornady's 25 years ago and have never trusted them since, but i was also probably asking that bullet to do more than it was designed for then and now.

RE: recovered bullets
 

Of all the XTP's I believe the 44cal 240 and 300 are the best for high speed I have used the with 130 gr RS with out a problem. Part of the problem is people want to lump the whole brand together it just does not work that way each bullet is made for a particular velocity, the commen use of these particular ones is the 44Mag and Super Mag the only one that are actually better high velocity bullets are the Gold Dots and the specality bullets Designed for mag muzzle loaders and the A frame and all copper Barns ,Nosler ect. which to me are overly expensive,when a Shock Wave or Gold Dot or XTP or several others would do the job very neatly. For long range and high velocity the 50/40 200gr Shock Wave really dont have any compitition. Its closest competitor is the 40 cal 200gr XTP in a blue sabot, now there is the meanest XTP of all after that I guess the 250 Shock Wave and then some of the expensive one. Lee

RE: recovered bullets
 

LEE

10-4 - that is the only XTP I can shoot with confidence, then maybe the .430/300 grain XTP because it has two canurling (sp) rings to help hold the lead in the copper..

RE: recovered bullets
 

I live and hunt in Pennsylvania and use an RMC Flintlock loaded with Goex 2f. My hunting loads are 90 grains in a 24" barrel, and 100 grains in the 28" barrel. Twist rates are 1:28. The first deer I took with it last year was around 70 yards or so using the 28" barrel and 100 grains of Goex 2f and a Hornady xtp 300 grain. The deer was small and impact was through the neck and out behind the off shoulder and the shot was from a treestand. It went down right now and was dead instantly but when skinning it there was little blood inside and the exit hole was not very large. I don't think it expanded much and the performance left me thinking about a bullet that would expand a little more not less; I guess it would be leaving the muzzle around 1500 f.p.s. if I was lucky. I think I need the 300 grains but I need something that opens up a bit more easily.

We can't use the .40 cal. bullets in the blue sabots because it needs to be at least 44 caliber. I bought some .430 200 grain xtp's to try out for that reason. They show on the chart to be a bit tougher than the .40 cal. 200 grainers but was hopeful they would perform close to what the .40 cal. bullets do. Anyone have any experience with this bullet on deer?

RE: recovered bullets
 

so what your saying, is people had problems with one cal. of the xtp, they write the whole brand off, or vise versa. that could be why I can't any 45 cal. xtps in any gunshops in my area, I may have try some 44 cal. xtps and gold dots, funny thing to they run a little cheaper.

RE: recovered bullets
 

Mossie

I would agree with you a lot... .452/300 grain XTP, XTP Mag and .430/300 grain XTP might be a bit much for the slender whitetail. The bullet is in and out before it has much chance to do any thing... The .430/240 and the .452/250 (regular 250 not the mag version) should work a lot better...

But;

I would bet the bank that the .452/250 Gold Dot and even the 300 Grain Gold dot would do the job + you are assured that the bullet will stay together at any range. Chap and Semisane both have chosen to use the 300 GD both for ballistic reasons... I still would use the 250 on white... with that deep hollow point cavity it has got to open and open fast but yet still get retain weight to drive the bullet through.

RE: recovered bullets
 

UC, Your right I was talking about hard cast bullets, not pure lead. Thanks. Chap Gleason

RE: recovered bullets
 

Beautiful, I agree it is ideal, not flattened out like a pancake, it is fully expanded. I would like to see the side, it should show the shank fully intact. This is generating a lot of good debate on the "perfect bullet", not just a recoved bullet. Chap

RE: recovered bullets
 

Chap

The length of the shaft will depend on which weight bullet it is - ie the 300 grain will have a longer shaft than the 250 and the 250 will have a longer shaft than the 200 grain.

That is why I indicated to you that those 250's that Semisane posted were expanded to the max leaving less shaft than the 300 grain.

RE: recovered bullets
 

sabotloader,

I like the thought of using the 300 grain bullet because it will get the penetration for an exit hole; trajectory is not much more than the 250 grainers and carriesthe energy out to 125 yards a bit better. The problem I have with these 50 caliber flintlocks(Late season in PA is flintlock only)with the fast twist barrels is they shoot the sabots with enough accuracy and energy for shots out to 125 yards but the velocity of real black powder is not enough to expand the pistol bullets out that far. The regular xtp 300 grainers are supposed to open up well at the 1200 f.p.s or soI hit that deer with but I saw little evidence of good expansion. I like the results that Chap got with his flinter and the 300 grain Gold dots and he was pushing them about the same speed I get with 100 grains of 2f; so I think I need to get some and see how they do.I gotta have the exit and some blood trail if there is no snow were I hunt.

I have looked for far to many deer that don't leave a decent blood trail when shot with a roundball. I like hunting with them but believe me when I tell you that I don't shoot beyond 60 yards with a .50 caliber roundball anymore and I hit mine right below the ear with em now and it takes em out quick. Most of my hunting buds still use them and the results on even well hit deer beyond 60 yards or so can be a crap shoot. Some down right now and some go for long distance with little blood. If there is no snow it can mean a lot of work and wasted hunting time for the others in the group. My first deer with the saboted set-up was bang flop and it shows great promise but bullet selection is going to be the key.

RE: recovered bullets
 

Mossie

I gues I am wondering exactly which Hornady 300XTP you were actually using? Knowing that might explain some of what happened...

In theory, and probably true, the heavier bullet should penetrate more, but in fact that is detirmined by expansion and the substance(animal) that you shoot the bullet in.

As Chap says the 300 GD's have a longer shaft hanging out from under the mushroom and it will drive through farther if it and the 250 a fired at the same velocity. The 250 makes up for some of this penetration by the fact it is shot with a greater velocity - 1860fps (300 grain 1775)..

I am not going there because I do not have the PRB experiance but I would highly suspect what you indicate to be true.

I wish I could show you a pic of a 250 or a 300 hit with the resulting blood trail but all I have are hits by a .451/260 grain Nosler. BUT - I would expect the same results from either of the God Dots. This shot was on a small toe whitetail @ 170+ yards. I was down hill and quartering to me. The shot sent him straight into the air with all four feet... then his flight response took over - he made it about 30 feet. The bullet entered the chest cavity a little lower than I planned and came out behind the left front shoulder... now the impressive part for me... everything in the chest cavity was dark red jello... I may have it a good portion of the heart but there is no way i hit every organ in there. When I got him opened up - there was nothing but jello in the chest cavity... Blood trail no problem - there was all kinds of blood at the hit site and all the way to drop site... even at the drop site there was blood splatter (new term for me from the CSI shows I watch) all around the area.... he was really spraying blood. This is pretty much how I found him...

RE: recovered bullets
 

Sabotloader,

The deer that I took was with the .452 300 grain standard xtp--not the mag version. Goex 2f will only push it around 1500 at the muzzle and at 100 yards it would be going a little under 1200. Black powder must be used in a flinter so that's about all I can get for a 300 grainer; a 250 grainer would only be going about 1600 at the muzzle. Chaps bullet looks really good from his flinter. I am just hoping the the Gold dots are not even harder to expand at the speeds I can get with real black powder. I must say Chap's bullet is just the thing I am looking to achive. As usual; the best way to find out is try it for myself and see. I also believe I could get maybe another 100 f.p.s. with Swiss Brand 3f powder. I only have one tag for this year so it's either going to be the 250 Gold dot or the 300. Thanks for the replies and I post pic's of my results.

RE: recovered bullets
 

Mossie

If you could look at the construction of 250 GD - you would see that it will open - The hollow point is so deep and so wide - if it fills with anything liquid even with minimal velocity it will expand... + we aready knowChap got his 300 grainer to expand from a FL....

Just a thought if you want more velocity with real BP? - can you get ahold of some Swiss BP? That will punch your bullets out there in a hurry...

How long til your season opens?

RE: recovered bullets
 

Our season opens the day after Christmas so there is plenty of time to get my Gold Dots and I think I can get some Swiss powder from a local gunstore. I have always used Goex but Swiss is supposed to give another 100-170 f.p.s. from the same charge load. My guns max. is 120 grains of 2f and 110 grains of 3f. I would not push it beyond that.

I took the load velocities and ran them through the Hornday's website ballistic calculator and another 150 f.p.s. really makes a difference in energy at 100 yards when you consider the difference between 1500 and 1650 f.p.s. A duplexed load of 777 would probably light off as well but I prefer to stay with real black. The 300 grain bullet really provides the best ballistics at these speeds on paper and as I have said; it worked well for Chap. Thanks for all the information on the Gold Dots. This really has been a great thread. I am leaning toward the 300 grain for this season but I intend to buy a box of 250's as well. I only hope they produce the accuracy that the Hornady's do. I can get under 2" most days at 100 with them although the Gold Dot's should be able to keep em under 3" or so with no problem. Plenty good enough for me.

RE: recovered bullets
 

Mossie

I would bet that it will quite a bit more than 100-170 FPS... In fact if you load up 100 grains of 2f - I would bet you will be shooting a 250 close to 1800fps and a 300 near 1700.

I have no personal experiance with Swiss other than what Cdad has told me and information I have read on the net - so only you will know for sure... but I'll bet - it will exceed you estimates...

Here check this out....

RE: recovered bullets
 

SL
Yes I see that, I think both will do the job, the 250g appear to me to open faster, which is better in a low energy FL, but I like the 300g for penetration. That is just me however. I sight in 50 yards andkeep my shots to no more than 70 yards with the FL and open sights.
Thanks for all the pictures of the GD, I think a lot of folks are learning a lot, about expansion, penetration and fragmentation in different bullets. Very good.
Chap

RE: recovered bullets
 

Yep, I think I need to try some of that Swiss 2f out. That's just the speed I am looking for out of this fast twist flinter. Don't need or want anymore than that. 1700 and a 300 grainer will work just right. Thanks for the chart as well sabotloader.

RE: recovered bullets
 

This very active thread hascovered PRB, Nosler Partition, PB,Hornady XTP, Speer Gold Dots and Barnes on this thread. Anybody got any recovered 250 or 300g SW or Hornady SSTs? Lets take a look at them? To start the discussion, please look at this thread in PDF format:

http://www.the-gleasons.com/Parker%20BE%20TC%20SW%20shot%20into%20ballistic%20 gel.pdf

on the ModernMuzzleloader forum. Here is the picture of a 250g SW. What do ya think? Why?

Chap Gleason

RE: recovered bullets
 

Anybody got any pictues of the Parker Ballistic Extreme? Here is one from a thread on modernmuzzleloading in PDF format:

http://www.the-gleasons.com/Parker%20BE%20TC%20SW%20shot%20into%20ballistic%20 gel.pdf

Here is a picture of the PBE and the 250g Bonded SW shot into the gel. What do ya think? Why?
Chap

RE: recovered bullets
 

"Anybody got any recovered 250 or 300g SW or Hornady SSTs? Lets take a look at them? To start the discussion, please look at this thread in PDF format:"

Take a look at theSST i recovered from a deceased hog. It is posted on this threadalong with the photos of lots of bullets that were fired into lots of different kinds of non-living media.That bulletwas fired from a laser measured distance of 190 yards. Take a look at the 240 grain, .44 caliber XTP thati recovered from the body of the second deer that it killed. It was fired atabout 130 yards. A deer or hog is not gelatin. The tests of bullets fired into gelatin, sand, wet newspapers and wet clay arenot indicative of what a bullet does when it hits a pig or deer.

For some reason you have a big problem with SST bullets. How many head of game have you shot with SST bullets? SST and XTP bullets have worked well for me.So far thisyear i have killed 14 hogs with SST and XTP bullets. Not one of them went over 10 yards.

I will say it again, lots of folks have trouble with bullets because they do not put them in the right place.

RE: recovered bullets
 

Chap, what powder and how much of it for the PBE and the bonded shockwave? Also, were they recovered from deer? I like the way they look. Not sure if they are considered overexpanded or not but they sure look good to me. Thanks again for all your input, Greg

RE: recovered bullets
 

I agree that you can not tell much with out that info. If I was to guess I would say they were shot into gellatin with a smokeless powder gun [there are at least 3 now] and a max load of smokeless. I say this because of the way the unbonded 250 blew, I never had one do that but I know it only takes a little more velocity than the bullet can stand,a 150 gr load of 777 might do it. Lee

RE: recovered bullets
 

Those were NOT my bullet but a screen capture from the thread that I posted to get the discussion going. That was from balistic gel. I have shot the PBE 275g in my Savage 10ML with 44g of 5744, gives about 2000 fps. Here is one group of 5 that I shot of them:

http://www.the-gleasons.com/Parker_Ballistic_Extreme_275g_2007_09_03_AA5744_44 g_WinchesterKleenborePrimer_default%20sabot.jpg

I think they are a very good bullet.
Chap

RE: recovered bullets
 

Thanks for the push back Falcon, this is just what I wanted to see, someone whohad good experiencewith them. Now I went thru this entire thread and I didn't see any pictures from you, can you give either a URL link or post the picture in here. I have not killed any game with the SST but I have with the XTP, and I like them,as for the SST they are the most accurate bullet in my Savage.
However I chose the PBE since I felt it mushroomed better at closer ranges based on what I have seen andread.Thanks. Chap Gleason

RE: recovered bullets
 

Click the link above that I postedand read the article, it is Smokeless NULA and I don't know the powder. Chap

RE: recovered bullets
 

Falcon, Hook us up with the pics. Thanks, Greg

RE: recovered bullets
 

gleason.chapman,Itried that Chap the pics came throughj fine but the print looked like computerees, my computer is kinda old I built it about 10 years a go. Lee

RE: recovered bullets
 

You need to download "Adobe Acrobat Reader", which is free SW to read "PDF file", go to

http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html

and download and install it. I think you have an old version of Adobe Viewer. Chap