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RE: recovered bullets
Semisane
Gosh dems beautiful - looks like they retained better than 90% of their weight also... gotta love it... I still shoot the 250's for deer... although Chap has proved the 300's will work form a flint lock... |
RE: recovered bullets
semisane, what power qand how much were u shooting? And, did the lighter ones expand as well?
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RE: recovered bullets
Hey Sabotloader, the 250's are fine bullets. If I were sure my shots would be 100 yards or less that's probably what I'd use because they shoot smaller groups for me than the 300s. But, the heavier bullets carry better at longer distances and my groups are still decent - 3" @ 100 yards. Check out this comparision.
Speer Gold Dots at 1750 fps muzzle - 0 at 125 yards. 250 GRAIN 300 GRAIN Trajectory Energy Trajectory Energy 50 yds. +1.98 1320 +1.73 1708 75 yds.+2.411166+2.121564 100 yds. +1.79 1033 +1.57 1434 125 yds. 0 918 0 1315 150 yds. -3.11 821 -2.67 1209 175 yds. -7.68 742 -6.531112 |
RE: recovered bullets
Ok, let me restate my question due to poor spelling, lol. How much powder and what kind of powder are you shooting? Also, did the lighter ones expand well? Thanks again, Greg
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RE: recovered bullets
Hey GT, It so happens Ishot a target with each on Friday afternoon. All the data you want is on the target. Check 'em out. (If you can't read the notes, let me know and I'll post the data.
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RE: recovered bullets
.
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RE: recovered bullets
Also, did the lighter ones expand well?  |
RE: recovered bullets
Thanks a lot. That is just about the same amount of powder and everything I shoot through my knight wolverine. The only difference is the bullet I shoot weighs 220 grains.
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RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: sabotloader Semisane Gosh dems beautiful - looks like they retained better than 90% of their weight also... gotta love it... I still shoot the 250's for deer... although Chap has proved the 300's will work form a flint lock... "Anything so innocent and built like that just gotta be named Lucille", so paraphrasingKennedy's saying for that bullet: "anything mushroomed like that just gotta be called Gold Dot! Chap |
RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: Semisane Also, did the lighter ones expand well?
 |
RE: recovered bullets
 recovered from under the off-side hide of a 7pt whitetail. Started life as a Lee .457-405F sized to .451 and weighed ~423 grains. Recovered weight was 373 grains (if my memory is correct) and there was an obvious small chunk missing from the nose section. |
RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: Underclocked recovered from under the off-side hide of a 7pt whitetail. Started life as a Lee .457-405F sized to .451 and weighed ~423 grains. Recovered weight was 373 grains (if my memory is correct) and there was an obvious small chunk missing from the nose section. |
RE: recovered bullets
OK I'll ad one from my 1860 Army Revolver that I've shot yesterday as an expiriment "you guys inspired me."
Gun: 25 year old Pietta 1860 Army steel frame .44 Loading: 30gr. FFFG Goex Remington #11 Hornady .454 144gr.Ball Chronograched @ 858fps. = 236ft. lbs. Please forgive the pictures, they were taken with my camera phone here at work where my dial caliper is. unfired ball.  Hitting into5 1X6 pine planks @ 20 yards. recovered weight = 130.2gr.  recovered from 9.1" of wet news print "inside a cardboard box" @ 20 yards. recovered weight = 139.8gr.  Yes it's just a round ball but the point is they do expand, maybe not a pretty as the new Gold Dots or what not but they do expand when hit into even relatively soft media & they have been killing Game for a long time.. |
RE: recovered bullets
This one killed a deer and I had to fined it on the far side in the ground with a metal detector,it went through the off side shoulder about aninch away from the bone and was about 2 inches underground.[deer was about 50 ydsthe bullet is a 250 Gold Dot with 100gr 777-FF]
Now there are several different ideas on the subject but I go with amount of energy expended in the right place is important what goes into the ground on the far side of the animal is waste and has noeffect on the animal.  |
RE: recovered bullets
Try again
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RE: recovered bullets
I can't do anything with pictures from this computer [:@], but you can check out my last post over in this thread. Somebody can copy it over here if you want.
Hopefully Redclubcan shed some light on this. He's probably busy hunting or something though. http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=2388110&mpage=5 |
RE: recovered bullets
"Now there are several different ideas on the subject but I go with amount of energy expended in the right place is important what goes into the ground on the far side of the animal is waste and has noeffect on the animal."
That bullet did it's job and that is all that matters. |
RE: recovered bullets
Chap
If you compare the 250g with the 300, the 250s look like they are very near end of life and ready to break apart, the 300 look together and have done their business perfectly. I would really like to disagree with your statement.... I do not believe that 250's are over-expanded and near the end of their life. The 250 is constructed differently than the 300. If you look at a 250 you wil notice it has a much deeper HP than the 300. In fact if you look at Semisane's pictures again - look carefully at the right hand picture you can see the copper dot - about 1:00 off center. When the 250 expands to fully open it does not have the length of body as the 300 does (it does not have the body length in the first place. It really looks to me likeit expanded out just about right... the petals migh be laid back a little bit more that normal but still way over .75" and I would bet the bullet still has 85/90% of it weight. This looks pretty good but not perfect, anperfect performing terminalbullet is completely expanded at the head and the long shank of the bullet is intact, Just my thoughts and goodness I am no expert... Here is a picture of expanded Speers and you see the same process. The 300 has more rear mass weight than the 250 does non-the-less they expanded to their max - both far from the end of their lives - neither of the two were the petals even close to coming off.  |
RE: recovered bullets
I use a real scientific approach to bullet effectiveness :D ... if when I shoot, the animal either drops in its tracks or goes no more than 30 yards before expiring- the bullet did fine. (If I cleanly miss, that bullet also did fine. ;)) In the case of the bullet I pictured, the buck dropped straight down.
I very rarely recover bullets and never make any real attempt to do so. That one just happened to be handy. Those Gold Dots look WICKED good! Do you have any pics of XTPs recovered from similar testing? Was just wondering how they would compare to the Speers. |
RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: gt2003 Let's see if I can attach these. They are both precision rifle 220 grain dead center bullets shot over 80 grains of 777 powder. Light recoil and incredible performance. I only shoot in typical situation 50-75 yards. But, I'm sure they would perform extremely well at longer distances. 
 |
RE: recovered bullets
UC
I think I do but their results are not always good - I dig up the pics... But back to the Gold Dots - here is a picture of a bisected GD. You can see in the left hand picture the "cooper dot" that stops, for the most part, the expansion of this bonded bullet. I do not have a pic of a 250 but this "copper dot" is much farther down into the bullet at the bottom of the really deep hollow point. With the deep HP they have been able to lengthen the bullet which really helps in a sabot load.  |
RE: recovered bullets
UC
Here is a pic of Hornady 300 grain XTP's (left) and Gold Dots recovered from the saturated clay water bar. The water bar was @ 100 yards. Not all Honady's stripped the copper of the lead but most did. Here is a pic...  |
RE: recovered bullets
Thanks Mike, looks like the Gold Dots are the way to go. Naturally I have a bunch of the others on the shelf. :)
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RE: recovered bullets
Excellant pics, also some very good explainations. This is a very good thread, I hope the people that are new to the sport are following it. It would be good to hear from some of them,especally if they have any questions or comments. Lee
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RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: lemoyne Excellant pics, also some very good explainations. This is a very good thread, I hope the people that are new to the sport are following it. It would be good to hear from some of them,especally if they have any questions or comments. Lee |
RE: recovered bullets
Good,part of the reason for doing this is to increase the understanding and capabilities of the people that have not had the oppertunities that some of use have had. Lee
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RE: recovered bullets
It looks like what it comes down to is good penetration coupled with proper/controlled expansion. Both seem to be pretty much equally important. If the bullet mushrooms to the size of a football but only penetrates 2 inches, no good. Or, if the bullet hits and doesn't expand any at all and does very little damage, no good either. So, mushrooming is good but its only 1 part of theequation. If the bullet gradually expands and goes through the vitalsand does adequate damage then we've got a winner. And, from the looks of the photos and the stories, we've got a bunch of winners out there. Thanks for all the input.This thread just gets better and better, Greg
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RE: recovered bullets
This might start a bit of disscussion, but I am going to comment on the reason I think different people have different results from the same bullet.
A lot of us strive for a certain amount of accuray,one of the things we do is to run the powder ladder with different kindsand amounts of powder. There for we end up with a wide range of velocity as a result, we know these bullets were designed for certain velocity ranges but we like to ignore the fact. Now for the part we will proably disagree on, some people use loads that won't open the bullet[cause them to mushroom ] One fellow used 75 gr of RS and shot one hole groups at 100yds; "I told him that good accuracy but NOT a deer load" He did not agree and shot a nice buck with it they had to track the buck witha dog on a leash for around a mile. Now we come to why, he was shooting a Shock Wave one of my favorite bullets, but they are designed for around 2000 fps , 75 gr will giveyou about 1400 fps with Goex FF that will barely open a250 gr XTP and a 230 or 240 gr XTP would be better. Now this is just my opinion so fel free to put your own in here , but just for fun I will give those interested a few minimum for a few bullets. XTP 230gr- 1400fps XTP 240gr- 1500fps XTP 250gr- 1500fps with Gold Dots I would add 100fps to this Shock Waves a minimum of 1850 fps And please remember that the max velocity is a seoerate discussion to much can be worse than to little. Lee |
RE: recovered bullets
LEE
Now this is just my opinion so fel free to put your own in here , but just for fun I will give those interested a few minimum for a few bullets. XTP 230gr- 1400fps XTP 240gr- 1500fps XTP 250gr- 1500fps For shooting minimum velocities I guess I would refer back to manufacturers guidelines... although when you do this you might find that you are shooting aparticular bullet well beyond it's listed capabilties for the gun that it designed to be shot in.... case in point a 200 grain XTP - performs at velociies well beyond what Hornady listed max... |
RE: recovered bullets
Agreed, and some of the people that push xtp's hard do have a problem with them coming apart quick.
They are not as bad as pb's that way but they do have some limitations that give people like you and I that prefer the high end second thoughts about them. For instance my System One likes the 230 gr XTP and 150gr RS and I have to be very careful about hiting them om the rid cage only because it will penatrate about 4 inches and then it litterally blows up the whole inside of the chest of a deer has little bitty pieces in it, but with a good hit just behind the foreleg it is always a bang flop; the problem is I have had to pass on some good deer because of its limitations so I dont use it any more. Lee |
RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: sabotloader Chap If you compare the 250g with the 300, the 250s look like they are very near end of life and ready to break apart, the 300 look together and have done their business perfectly. I would really like to disagree with your statement.... I do not believe that 250's are over-expanded and near the end of their life. The 250 is constructed differently than the 300. If you look at a 250 you wil notice it has a much deeper HP than the 300. In fact if you look at Semisane's pictures again - look carefully at the right hand picture you can see the copper dot - about 1:00 off center. When the 250 expands to fully open it does not have the length of body as the 300 does (it does not have the body length in the first place. It really looks to me likeit expanded out just about right... the petals migh be laid back a little bit more that normal but still way over .75" and I would bet the bullet still has 85/90% of it weight. This looks pretty good but not perfect, anperfect performing terminalbullet is completely expanded at the head and the long shank of the bullet is intact, Just my thoughts and goodness I am no expert... Here is a picture of expanded Speers and you see the same process. The 300 has more rear mass weight than the 250 does non-the-less they expanded to their max - both far from the end of their lives - neither of the two were the petals even close to coming off.
Mike, Thanks for the push back. I was expecting some. My response would be, why do the Barnes and Nosler folks put a picture perfect expanded bullet like this on their web site? Note the shank intact, but the petals/head fully expanded, like the Nosler I showed. Why do they consider that perfect expansion and weight retention? I think it is because the bullet expanded in the body creating creating large wound channel, yet retained near 100% of weight and was not in danger of fragmenting when it hit a rib or bone on exit.I think that is perfect. I believe the 250g GD is about ready to break up, since it is all the way down to totally pancaked out. I think pancake is over expansion, like shown by Greg with the Dead Centers. I am not saying that pancake will not kill, but it is NOT optimal for shoot thru. I have found that pancake bullets are usually under the hide on the off side and the reason they don't exit for good blood trail is they used all their energy in expansion and little is left for penetration. Order and listen to the two free DVDs from Barnes on their Web site, http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/free-dvds/ they talk a lot about designing the perfect bullet, andwhat arethe characteristics of the perfect bullet. Chap  |
RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: gt2003 It looks like what it comes down to is good penetration coupled with proper/controlled expansion. Both seem to be pretty much equally important. If the bullet mushrooms to the size of a football but only penetrates 2 inches, no good. Or, if the bullet hits and doesn't expand any at all and does very little damage, no good either. So, mushrooming is good but its only 1 part of theequation. If the bullet gradually expands and goes through the vitalsand does adequate damage then we've got a winner. And, from the looks of the photos and the stories, we've got a bunch of winners out there. Thanks for all the input.This thread just gets better and better, Greg Chap |
RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: Underclocked Thanks Mike, looks like the Gold Dots are the way to go. Naturally I have a bunch of the others on the shelf. :) |
RE: recovered bullets
Not sure what I was doing wrong with the 300 grain xtp's. I used their powder charge and bullet weight chart and should have been shooting well above the minimal effective velocities. I'd have to go check, it's been a couple of years since I shot them, but I think the minimal velocity was something like 1650 fps? I'll go double check and see what I come up with. Trial and error seems to be the theme of the day.
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RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: Raider2000 OK I'll ad one from my 1860 Army Revolver that I've shot yesterday as an expiriment "you guys inspired me." Gun: 25 year old Pietta 1860 Army steel frame .44 Loading: 30gr. FFFG Goex Remington #11 Hornady .454 144gr.Ball Chronograched @ 858fps. = 236ft. lbs. Please forgive the pictures, they were taken with my camera phone here at work where my dial caliper is. unfired ball. Hitting into5 1X6 pine planks @ 20 yards. recovered weight = 130.2gr. recovered from 9.1" of wet news print "inside a cardboard box" @ 20 yards. recovered weight = 139.8gr. Yes it's just a round ball but the point is they do expand, maybe not a pretty as the new Gold Dots or what not but they do expand when hit into even relatively soft media & they have been killing Game for a long time.. Chap |
RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: sabotloader UC I think I do but their results are not always good - I dig up the pics... But back to the Gold Dots - here is a picture of a bisected GD. You can see in the left hand picture the "cooper dot" that stops, for the most part, the expansion of this bonded bullet. I do not have a pic of a 250 but this "copper dot" is much farther down into the bullet at the bottom of the really deep hollow point. With the deep HP they have been able to lengthen the bullet which really helps in a sabot load.
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RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: lemoyne This might start a bit of disscussion, but I am going to comment on the reason I think different people have different results from the same bullet. A lot of us strive for a certain amount of accuray,one of the things we do is to run the powder ladder with different kindsand amounts of powder. There for we end up with a wide range of velocity as a result, we know these bullets were designed for certain velocity ranges but we like to ignore the fact. Now for the part we will proably disagree on, some people use loads that won't open the bullet[cause them to mushroom ] One fellow used 75 gr of RS and shot one hole groups at 100yds; "I told him that good accuracy but NOT a deer load" He did not agree and shot a nice buck with it they had to track the buck witha dog on a leash for around a mile. Now we come to why, he was shooting a Shock Wave one of my favorite bullets, but they are designed for around 2000 fps , 75 gr will giveyou about 1400 fps with Goex FF that will barely open a250 gr XTP and a 230 or 240 gr XTP would be better. Now this is just my opinion so fel free to put your own in here , but just for fun I will give those interested a few minimum for a few bullets. XTP 230gr- 1400fps XTP 240gr- 1500fps XTP 250gr- 1500fps with Gold Dots I would add 100fps to this Shock Waves a minimum of 1850 fps And please remember that the max velocity is a seoerate discussion to much can be worse than to little. Lee http://www.chuckhawks.com/underrated_hornady_XTP.htm on the performance range of the XTP bullet. Chap  |
RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: lemoyne the problem is I have had to pass on some good deer because of its limitations so I dont use it any more. Lee |
RE: recovered bullets
Thanks for the chart Chap. That's exactly what i was trying to find. From the chart, the 300 grain xtp's should have performed perfectly at the velocities my ML was shooting. Live and learn. I never had the experience of recovering one so I don't know exactly what happened. I'm assuming they didn't expand very well on the small deer around here. Maybe that's why I'm having such good luck with the all lead bullets. Thanks to the link on the xtp's, I'm off to read it now. Thanks again, this is very interesting, Greg
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RE: recovered bullets
ORIGINAL: Ideaman I would love to know what my Barnes look like, but they go through. leaving a nice exit I might add.  |
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