Fouling a bore
08-22-2007, 07:43 PM
#1
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 973
Fouling a bore
We've kicked this around before and I confess I still can not understand why fouling a bore works to cause consistency from shot #1 in many MZ's. I've heard barrel pressures rise due to sabot or bullet friction fouling causes in the bore. I swab with both sides of a damp patch then both sides of a dry patch between all shots (after that first fouled barrel shot). How dirty can the barrel be on shot #2 for example, after I've swabbed? Is it fouling in the grooves? The lands can't be very dirty on #2. Is it the oil residue from cleaning that's the shot #1 culprit such that the heat and debris of a fouling shot renders the bore less slick? I dry swab the oiled barrel before shooting but that doesn't bring shot #1 in line with the rounds that follow. I must shoot a squib load (no bullet) and foul the barrel.
Anyone know the "science" behind fouling a bore?
Anyone ever drop a bore light down the barrel after every shot/swabbing and take a look?
Anyone know the "science" behind fouling a bore?
Anyone ever drop a bore light down the barrel after every shot/swabbing and take a look?
08-22-2007, 07:50 PM
#2
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Fouling a bore
I find in almost all my rifles.. they shoot better fowled. I think, once the bore is fowled and then swabbed, the following shots should be as similar as the one before. The more consistant each shot is to the prior one, the better the accuracy.
The problem is when hunting, if you fowl the bore to hunt, you also start the clock as to when that rifle needs to be cleaned next. But to me again, that's not a problem as I discharge all my rifles at the end of the day, clean the rifle and start new the next day.
The problem is when hunting, if you fowl the bore to hunt, you also start the clock as to when that rifle needs to be cleaned next. But to me again, that's not a problem as I discharge all my rifles at the end of the day, clean the rifle and start new the next day.
08-22-2007, 08:12 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: southwest Ohio
Posts: 1,047
RE: Fouling a bore
I've owned a few that placed the first shot in the group, but most shoot much better with a fouled bore. I've found projectile type makes a difference, too. Sometimes they will shoot better with one particular combination of bullet & sabot, or conical than with others (with the first shot through a clean bore).Before I hunt with a rifle I like to spend enough time at the range to know where that first shot is going. If it mightbe wild, I'll foul the bore before I hunt.
08-22-2007, 08:27 PM
#4
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Fouling a bore
yeoman
Fouling just some thoughts from the back of my head - no science to it... I am not a scientist - it just works....
I believe fouling does increase the friction in the barrel but more importantly it creates 'grip' for the following projectiles up the barrel creating better and more consistent rotation + more consistent pressure from load to load.
Running a damp swab up and down the barrel a few stokes does not make the barrel clean... if you look at your bore it may even appear to be clean but it is not clean - there is still fouling caught in behind the lands down in the grooves and I know some people are not going to like this but there is also fouling up in the pores forced there by heat and pressure... swabbing will not get this out.
I do foul the barrel and it works for me, but, I take a different approach than Dave. I shoot my gun prior to the season to verify POA/POI... I do not clean it after until the end of the season or and if it takes a mjor bath in a rain storm or drenched in the snow - no I am not talking about the exterior but the bore. I would also caution you that I use T7 which is less corrosive than the Pyros or BP. I DO clean the bore with windex (which really does not clean the bore but certainly gets a lot out) and I do put back in a very light coat of Slip 2000 bore lubricant - I know another no-no... but again it works for me.
It is possible for me to leave the same load in the gun for 2-3 weeks in a row... I very seldom shoot a load out - just to shoot it. If there is ANY doubt in my mind about the quality of the load I will shoot it out or pull it... but it does not happen very often.
I do not even worry about the squib... I just pop a couple ofcaps or primers. damp windex swab that out and load a full shot and squeeze it off knowing it could be off somewhat - but I believe fouingwith a real shot adds the pressure to force the fouling into the pores, grooves,and all the way up the barrel.
I know there is a lot of this contrary to the norm but I have never been accused of being the norm. Even coaching I do not do the norm, I do what works for me and my kids.... and so often I get asked "have you not read the book" - I have but I try do what works for us... and yes, there are times when I am wrong.
Even back in the real days.... do you really think those guys really cleaned their barrels everytime they shot? and their barrels were not near as good as ours... and beleive me they would not shoot their gun just to clear the barrel... but of course many of their barrels payed the price also.
gosh! I hope this does not mess anybody up - to help you dismiss this writing remember I am also the one that used bore butter for so many years and never had any problems.
What can I say....
Fouling just some thoughts from the back of my head - no science to it... I am not a scientist - it just works....
I believe fouling does increase the friction in the barrel but more importantly it creates 'grip' for the following projectiles up the barrel creating better and more consistent rotation + more consistent pressure from load to load.
Running a damp swab up and down the barrel a few stokes does not make the barrel clean... if you look at your bore it may even appear to be clean but it is not clean - there is still fouling caught in behind the lands down in the grooves and I know some people are not going to like this but there is also fouling up in the pores forced there by heat and pressure... swabbing will not get this out.
I do foul the barrel and it works for me, but, I take a different approach than Dave. I shoot my gun prior to the season to verify POA/POI... I do not clean it after until the end of the season or and if it takes a mjor bath in a rain storm or drenched in the snow - no I am not talking about the exterior but the bore. I would also caution you that I use T7 which is less corrosive than the Pyros or BP. I DO clean the bore with windex (which really does not clean the bore but certainly gets a lot out) and I do put back in a very light coat of Slip 2000 bore lubricant - I know another no-no... but again it works for me.
It is possible for me to leave the same load in the gun for 2-3 weeks in a row... I very seldom shoot a load out - just to shoot it. If there is ANY doubt in my mind about the quality of the load I will shoot it out or pull it... but it does not happen very often.
I do not even worry about the squib... I just pop a couple ofcaps or primers. damp windex swab that out and load a full shot and squeeze it off knowing it could be off somewhat - but I believe fouingwith a real shot adds the pressure to force the fouling into the pores, grooves,and all the way up the barrel.
I know there is a lot of this contrary to the norm but I have never been accused of being the norm. Even coaching I do not do the norm, I do what works for me and my kids.... and so often I get asked "have you not read the book" - I have but I try do what works for us... and yes, there are times when I am wrong.
Even back in the real days.... do you really think those guys really cleaned their barrels everytime they shot? and their barrels were not near as good as ours... and beleive me they would not shoot their gun just to clear the barrel... but of course many of their barrels payed the price also.
gosh! I hope this does not mess anybody up - to help you dismiss this writing remember I am also the one that used bore butter for so many years and never had any problems.
What can I say....
08-22-2007, 08:38 PM
#5
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Fouling a bore
roundball shooters seem more incline to shoot on a clean barrel into the same group then the inline and sabot loads. Why.. no idea. When I shoot an inline I like to take 40 grains of powder and put a wad on that and pop that off out the patio door.
I have done as Sabotloader and fired the round off, then just swabbed the barrel "clean" if you can call it that. Then in the morning I can load it without shooting it, and go hunting again. Also I do oil the barrel at night and then swab that all out before loading the next day.
I have done as Sabotloader and fired the round off, then just swabbed the barrel "clean" if you can call it that. Then in the morning I can load it without shooting it, and go hunting again. Also I do oil the barrel at night and then swab that all out before loading the next day.
08-22-2007, 08:46 PM
#6
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 5,180
RE: Fouling a bore
Thats true. I once shot over 15 shots in a row with my flintlock and never had to swab to retain accuracy. IMO, i feel that my sidelocks and flintlocks take less time and a hell of a lot less fussy with loads. And here i am trying to buy another inline
08-22-2007, 08:52 PM
#7
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Fouling a bore
cayugad
Al-right - Dave!
I do the swab thing also but you really never get all the oil out, besides I do want a little in to protect the bore while I am hunting from day to day, in the cold weather of the mornings and the T-shirt weather of the afternoons - then in the winter it is always damp out there.
You know the one thing I did not mention was the difference in the humidity here and there - which goes back to those experiments that we did leaving the gun loaded for days - out during the day and in during the night. Average humidity is a factor...
I have done as Sabotloader and fired the round off, then just swabbed the barrel "clean" if you can call it that. Then in the morning I can load it without shooting it, and go hunting again. Also I do oil the barrel at night and then swab that all out before loading the next day.
I do the swab thing also but you really never get all the oil out, besides I do want a little in to protect the bore while I am hunting from day to day, in the cold weather of the mornings and the T-shirt weather of the afternoons - then in the winter it is always damp out there.
You know the one thing I did not mention was the difference in the humidity here and there - which goes back to those experiments that we did leaving the gun loaded for days - out during the day and in during the night. Average humidity is a factor...
08-23-2007, 07:11 PM
#8
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 973
RE: Fouling a bore
Sabotloader - have you done any range tests on accuracy after prepping the gun the way you do .....after lightly oiling the bore? As you know I'm a Pyrodex shooter and am very concerned about leaving a fouled bore for any length of time. I don't mind leaving the gun loaded on a clean bore. I may try pouring various ingredients from baby powder to oatmeal down the clean barrel before taking the first shot the next few times out. Seems something like that might adhere to oil residue and achieve a similar effect, without the corrosive qualities. Maybe I'll go to 777 when I use up the couple pounds of Pyro I have now.
Cayugad - maybe a RB patch is a more physical seal where sabots rely almost entirely on gas to seal?
roundball shooters seem more incline to shoot on a clean barrel into the same group then the inline and sabot loads.
08-23-2007, 08:52 PM
#9
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 714
RE: Fouling a bore
I have one rifle that does not require a fouling shot, my 50 cal Disc Extreme. Everything else I have needs one. Why I have no idea. I shoot 3 primers then solvent patch the bore with 3 solvent patches, then follow with 3 dry patches and load. After every shot I use one wet patchfollowed byone dry patch.It's my procedure for every gun.In the disc Extreme from the first to the last shot it'll put them all in the same spot. My Omega IIRC shoots low for the first shot then all the others shoot together. My Pistol shoots high then groups. My .45 Extreme hasn't been shot enough for me to remember if it needs one or not. My .45 Hawken I have never shot in the 2 years I've owned it. I keep meaning to buy a GM barrel for it. [&o]
I dunno why. I do know a fouling shot is the most annoying thing in muzzleloading. I won't clean a gun till I shoot,I'm done hunting, or I hunt in damp weather. With the guns that need to be fouled I have to clean them every day regardless. Sometimes it's pretty late when I can get it done so my sleep suffers. I get mighty cranky when I'm tired.It could be why they seldom get hunted with and why I always seem to go back to my old reliable Extreme.
I dunno why. I do know a fouling shot is the most annoying thing in muzzleloading. I won't clean a gun till I shoot,I'm done hunting, or I hunt in damp weather. With the guns that need to be fouled I have to clean them every day regardless. Sometimes it's pretty late when I can get it done so my sleep suffers. I get mighty cranky when I'm tired.It could be why they seldom get hunted with and why I always seem to go back to my old reliable Extreme.
08-23-2007, 09:07 PM
#10
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Fouling a bore
yeoman
I certainly have - on paper and on animals - it works...
I still say a lot of this is because of the windex - it neutralizes the bulk of the T7 residue - the light and I mean light oil coating of the prevents is my attempt to protect the bore while hunting in cold clammy weather... and the warming and cooling of the barrel from day to day. I also should say the gun is never warmed rapidly or cooled rapidly.... it is a long warming process - cooling does occur a little faster going from a cool cab of the pickup to the cold of the morning. We never heat the cab to much we are already in hunting clothes....
I use to shoot Pryro also until T7 came out - then I made the switch as soon as I could and have never looked back.... I did try APP - Clean Shot - Clear Shot - but it always came back to T7-2f in the inlines and 3f in the sidehammers...
just me...
Sabotloader - have you done any range tests on accuracy after prepping the gun the way you do .....after lightly oiling the bore?
I still say a lot of this is because of the windex - it neutralizes the bulk of the T7 residue - the light and I mean light oil coating of the prevents is my attempt to protect the bore while hunting in cold clammy weather... and the warming and cooling of the barrel from day to day. I also should say the gun is never warmed rapidly or cooled rapidly.... it is a long warming process - cooling does occur a little faster going from a cool cab of the pickup to the cold of the morning. We never heat the cab to much we are already in hunting clothes....
I use to shoot Pryro also until T7 came out - then I made the switch as soon as I could and have never looked back.... I did try APP - Clean Shot - Clear Shot - but it always came back to T7-2f in the inlines and 3f in the sidehammers...
just me...
