RE: 250 vs 300gr
 

I don't think it will make much difference at the ranges your talking about. Even going to 200 yards theres not enough difference in drop to worry about. Theres not that much difference in the point blank range of the two bullets, less than 5 to 10 yards.

I prefer the 300 for long range due to the retained energy being about 200 to 300 foot pounds higher and the difference in drop at 200 yards only being about 1". The higher BC of the 300 makes up somewhat for the small amount of velocity loss.

RE: 250 vs 300gr
 

I use 300g for all my bullets. 300g over 250 tends to go thru the animal and leaves a good blood trail, wheras 250 tends to be under the skin on the off side, especially if you hit a rib going in or out. I am using Nosler Partition HG 300g Protected Points (pistol bullets) and Speer Gold Dot 300g in my Omega and my Knight Disc. The 300g penetrate better and retain weight better in my opinion, but they take more to get going, so they kick more. 100 yards max is ideal for the 300g. XTP Mag 300g Pistol bullets are also good, but they loose their jackets if pushed too fast and the shot is short. Chap Gleason

RE: 250 vs 300gr
 

Each muzzle loader has certain likes and dislikes...

My Knight Disc likes 300 Barnes over 250 Barnes...My brother's Remington prefers the 250s...
Mine doesn't like 250 or 300 Hornady .451 XTPs...
Hates 295 PowerBelts and Dead Center 240s...
Loves 250 SSTs...Hates 300s...

A few years back (maybe 6-7)...Me and 2 of my buddies all bought new inlines...All Knights...One Wolverine, one American Knight and my Disc...I spent all summer working up loads for all 3, for our annual early season trip down east...Ended up each of them preferred 3 different bullets...Go figure...

Shoot it....only your gun knows for sure....

RE: 250 vs 300gr
 

I have noticed that some muzzleloaders with slightly slower twist rates also have a little trouble stabilizing the 300 grain bullets, especially if you use the .44 (.429 actual)bullets/sabots instead of .45 bullets/sabots due to being quite long. But if your muzzleloader stabilizes the 300 grainers, I would definately use them over the 240-260's. Quite a few years ago, I dumped a small muley buck at a walked off 135 yards with my T/C Thunderhawk, and using the two piece T/C sabots and 300 grain 44 caliber Hornady xtp's. The bullet past right through, nice entry and exit wound and the deer only traveled about 20 yards before reaching its final resting place. Can't ask for much more than that in my opinion.

RE: 250 vs 300gr
 

For whitetail I like bullets in the 240-260 range same as Sabotloader. I think they havethe best blend of velocity and weight.

RE: 250 vs 300gr
 

Semisane

I took the trip over to your suggested post, I do not know how I might have mssed that whole thread but I did, but your picture and measurements really makes me think about some other ideas....

This statement in this post along with the picture from the previous post have put me down this road that I am about to suggest...

And maybe I wrong, cdad, proved that can happen... I am wondering if your bore is not along the lines of the old Knight or todays White's bore. Your pictures suggest this to me. If you look at the crush rib sabots and the MMP sabots you will notice a different type of construction in the bases. MMP use to have the same smooth cup but with the advent of the 150 grain charge the cup would not always handle the heat & pressure so with the stairstep cup the sabot becomes stronger and will hold those 150 grain loads but it will not expand as far as the smooth cup. Hence MMP has gone to the HPH-24 a thinner sabot to get down todays skinnery bores, but yet they still produce the HPH-12 for, in your words, loose bores, such as the older Knights or my White.

As a thought, I am throwing this out to you, the other day I was shooting the White @ 200 yards, with the 250 grain Gold Dot - I did ok @ 200 with the 250's, but when I went to the10mm 200 grain XTP @ 200 I through them all over the place. Iniatially, and @ 100 yards, it appeared that the White would shoot the 200's just fine even though the sabot went down abit to easy. Wolfhound had told me before that he could not get the 200's to perfrom from hisKnights - and now I have to agree with him from theWhite - they are good to a 100, but after that they become questionable. I know it is a sabot problem for that gun which has a loose bore.

Have you ever tried an HPH-12 in your Mustang? or better yet have you ever slugged your barrel to find out what size it might be? You really have me curius now. I just assumed new gun the barrel bore would be on the slim side, and would need 24's.

I would really give a 12 a try and if it is to thick then go to regular Harvesters which are a tad thicked than "crush ribs". But it really believe it does come down to bearing surface.

The thread you sent me to... Different Sabots Can Change Your Groups is so TRUE...

I know I am in the minority but I still say 250 area for deer and 300 for elk - yet as someone pointed out - if you are shooting longer ranges where the bullet slows down shoot 300's - they do fly better than 250's

RE: 250 vs 300gr
 

Sabotloader - two things:

Does thetarget you posted shows similar (or lower) velocity for the 300's than the 250's. I'm probably missing something here?? I can understand the theory just not the results on this target.


What would cause a bullet to perform at 100 yds. and not at 200 other than shooter or the elements if all aspects of loading are the same?

One wouldn't expect a combination which produces 2" groups at 100 to produce anything better than 4" at 200, and probably worse, but that isn't the gun or load's fault, IMO.

No??

RE: 250 vs 300gr
 

yeoman

The target does show a difference in velocities between 300 grain bullets and 250 grain... The test sabot mentioned is the MMP HPH-3p

The 250's average about 1864 ft./ Sec
The 300's average about1797 ft./Sec

Which I think is about right, in computing ballistics I use 1860 fps for 250's and 1750 for 300's

Length of the bullet/rotation of the bullet/velocity of the bullet.... I am think of a top... as long as it spins @ a given speed it rotates great, as the speed (velocity) deteriorates the top begins to wobble - so you can imagine that effect on a bullet. A 1/28 twist in an inline is ok for a lot of bullets, but maybe for a 10mm at extended ranges it is not????

In the normal curcumstances.... I would totally agree and that is exactly what I expected, but it did not happen. I beleive I was able to stabilize the bullet out to a 100 yards even though I was loosing some unknow pressure as the the combination goes up the barrel... I still have the velocity and the speed of rotation to hold it true through and to 100 yards. But as the bullet slows and the rotation slows - I think I am starting to get some instability in the flight path. I do not believe these same results will be found when I shoot the 200 from the Remingtons or the Omega, might from the GM barrel though because I am not shooting it with the same velocity as I do from an inline...

Just my thoughts - certainly not suggesting that I know the facts...

Example... I was convinced that a 1/48 twist traditional barrel could not shoot the long 460's conicals but it does, a lot of people will tell you can not shoot sabots from a 1/48 very well or if you do you need to shoot lighter bullets - well, for me I can shoot them quite well but I need to shoot 300 grain bullets.

Hope some of this makes some sense to you.... and others for that matter

mike

RE: 250 vs 300gr
 

Mike - I thought you were saying the longer 300's create a better gas seal, elevating barrel pressures and would therefor show greater velocity from the same sabot/charge combination. I guess that wasn't your point but leaves me wondering why you posted that target? ( I was expecting to see higher fps with the 300's)

The spinning top is an interesting description. What would you say if you put the 200's thru a chrono from the White and found 2000+ fps? Still wobbling? I think so, but not because they aren't spinning fast enough but because they are being pushed too hard. Faster than the spin rate can stabalize. Just a thought. Suppose you took the White again and used 80 T7??

RE: 250 vs 300gr
 

yeoman

No that was not my point, what I was trying to do was to comparethe velocity of the "Test Sabot" to the other sabots that I had on hand. The goal was to see if there was a significant velocity/accuracy difference between the 24's and the "Test Sabot" (HPH-3p-EZ) - which there really wasn't. With out the rest of the test targets and the written report to MMP it really does not make a lot of sense.

I am always interested in experimenting - so when I get a chance I'll do that... it could be... but if it were to be true(reducing the velocity)there would be no sense in my mind to shoot that bullet, except at ground squirrels.

If the darn weather would cool off and the fire danger would go down I would do a lot more shooting....