powder charges..
 

We have been reading and discussing a lot of about magnum powder charges lately. In fact inline rifles are often compared to center fire based on their ability to shoot magnum loads. I would like to get feed back from the shooters here that use inline rifles. Even traditional rifles if they fit into the group.

To set the guidelines for my question. We will consider a magnum powder charge equal to 150 grains or three pellets of powder OR 120 grains of loose powder, any brand or grain. I feel we need to stipulate the loose powder considerations as many do not shoot pellets for cost reasons or just personal preference. For any of you that care to comment, I would be most interested in your loads.

1. How many of you shoot magnum powder charges for hunting?
2. What rifle(s) do you shoot these magnum powder charges out of? ie; brand, model, barrel length
3. What projectile are you shooting when using magnum charges?
4. What ignition system are you shooting?
5. Is this a scoped rifle?
6. What animal are you hunting?
7. Do you feel this is a benifit with the magnum loads or is this the powder charge that gives you the best accuracy?
8. What do you feel is the max range you would be willing to shoot, if all things were perfect in relation to the shot?
9. Have you ever taken game with this load?
10. Have you ever missed with this load on game?
11. If you do not shoot MAGNUM CHARGES, what is the average non magnum powder charges, you do shoot in your rifles?

I will be interested to learn just how many of us do indeed shoot "magnum" charges. I apologize that I do not have the basic knowledge of the Savage ML10 to include smokeless, but if a Savage owner wished to enlighten me, I would me more then happy to include that as well.

I really do want to get an idea of the "average load" inline people shoot.

RE: powder charges..
 

cayugad

Dave I do not shoot 150 grain loads - I have just to say that I have - but in the normal situation I do not..

My loads in the inlines are 100 to 110 T7-2f (loose) and 80 to 90 grains T7-3f (loose) in the side hammers - I do not think these qualify as magnum loads...

The inlines are all scoped -the Omega isscoped and barrel sights are removed, all the other inlines the scope can be removed and the barrel sights are sighted in also...

None of the sidehammers are scoped - the Lyman still has the original iron sights - while all of the others have fiber optic.

I was going to copy your questions over and answer each one but I felt disqualified because I do not shoot what I consider a mag load. - hope that makes sense...

OOPs forgot - I have taken my share of game with these loads - just wish I had started this ML thing was I younger... Ranges have been from 170+ yards down to 10 yards...

mike

RE: powder charges..
 

I've tried magnum (3-pellet) charges in a T/C Omega, but couldn't see any real reason to use such a charge for hunting. At 200 yards it grouped barnes 300 gr Expanders pretty well (3 to 4" groups), but since most of my shots are under 100 yards I couldn't see the point of suffering the recoil that load produced.
Tried 120 grains of loose 3f in my Lyman Mustang today, and it says HELLO when you pull the trigger. [&:]

RE: powder charges..
 

1. How many of you shoot magnum powder charges for hunting?
2. What rifle(s) do you shoot these magnum powder charges out of? ie; brand, model, barrel length
3. What projectile are you shooting when using magnum charges?
4. What ignition system are you shooting?
5. Is this a scoped rifle?
6. What animal are you hunting?
7. Do you feel this is a benifit with the magnum loads or is this the powder charge that gives you the best accuracy?
8. What do you feel is the max range you would be willing to shoot, if all things were perfect in relation to the shot?
9. Have you ever taken game with this load?
10. Have you ever missed with this load on game?
11. If you do not shoot MAGNUM CHARGES, what is the average non magnum powder charges, you do shoot in your rifles?


1. I have never hunted with a magnum powder charge.
2. Knight Disc Rifle 24" barrel 120 grain of Pyrodex RS
Green Mountain 1:28 Renegade Stock 28" barrel 120 grains Pryodex RS
3. Knight Disc 250 grain Shockwave
Green Mountain 1:28 200 grain Hornady XTP 10mm
4. Knight orange disc primer system with Remington Kleenbore 209 Primers
Green Mountain 1:28 Barrel RWS 1075 #11 caps
5. Knight Disc - yes scoped with a Millet Gold Buck
Green Mountain 1:28 no scope
6. The dreaded paper bulls eye in both rifles. Again, never hunted animals with these loads
7. No real opinion as to the benifit. I would like to shoot a deer with either of them to see the effect.
8. Max range at this time would be limited to 100 yards with either rifle. I am not comfortable enough with the charges to shoot further then that.
9. NO
10. NO
11.Average inlines vary from 70-100 grains of powder. Tradtional range from 70-110 depending on rifle.


[hr]


Sabotloader, your answer was really something I was looking for. I have followed your posts and know the kinds of animals you hunt. Also I am a little familiar with your collection and it just amazes me that you do not see the need for magnum loads, even when huntng elk. This information of yours, tells me volumes of what works and what does not. Also I am aware of your experience with different bullets, sabots, etc so this is very good information to consider these questions.

After all they love to compare the inline to center fire rifles. Ballistically speaking, what center fire would you compare your hunting load muzzleloader to then?

RE: powder charges..
 

Neat thread you're starting here, cayugad. Ought to be interesting.

Here's my situation. Deer harvest rules for our club (10 guys / 900 acres southern pine plantation) are two does per member, one buck 6 or 7 points, and two bucks 8 points or better. Most of us take our two does for meat, pass on the 6 and 7 pointers, shoot the first 8 pointer we see, then only take a second buck if its better than the first one taken.

First off, let me say I want accuracy over velocity.

For the last nine years I've taken one of my does with a 50 caliberiron sightedcap lock TC New Englander with 90 grains Pyrodex RS or Select, and a 410 grain HornadyGreat Plains bullet. This is the most accurate load in that gun and clocks around 1050fps.My personal maximum range with this gun and load is 100 yards, though I've never shot a deer that far. Shots have ranged from 30 to 75 yards. Never lost a deer with this load. Never had one go more that about 50 yards after the shot, though most drop in their tracks.I'm real picky about my shots and won't shoot unless I have a good broadside (we have lots of does). Always have pass through. Missed once on a "below the ear" neck shot at about 35 yards. Don't know what the hell happened there, but I could swear I heard her laughing as she bounded away! I also think she yelled "you shoulda shot for the lungs dumbbutt!"

Next seasonI'm going to give the Lyman Mustang I bought this year a try.Got it because I wanted a scope sighted ML and - heck, I just wanted it. Anyway, so far the most accurate loads are in the 110 grain range with T-7 and 300 grain XTPs or Gold Dots. Still playing withvarious loads/sabots/bullets, etc. Will use whatever is most accurate and will stretch my comfort range to 150 yards.

RE: powder charges..
 

Semisane... real interesting. I understand the need for no magnum charges. So far I guess the theory of a magnum rifle is not holding water. That New Englander with that kind of powder and projectile has to be a deer thumper.

What center fire rifle would you compare your rifle to?

RE: powder charges..
 

cayugad

I have said for years... If I put a scope on my 30-30 Win 94 and only one bullet in the chamber - my inlines are comparable to slighly better. But if I were hunting for meat to live by i would take the 30-30 all day - much better fire power and repetitive shots. If I take the scope off the inline and no scope on the 30-30 and one shot from each gun - they are very compatible.... one thing thats really makes the difference is I believe I have a better variety of more effective bullets that I can shoot in the ML than I can in a tubular magazine 30-30...

There are some folks out there that think with a regular inline they are comparable to an 06 - i call hogwash on that one, but unfortunately a lot of game departments hear this + the words "magnum ML" and think they need legislation to reduce the effectivness of the inline...

What are your thoughts?...

RE: powder charges..
 

1. I have done so once on a hog. IMO "Magnum" charges are a waste of powder.

2. The one I did was a knight Extreme 26" barrel.

3. It was a Barnes 250 MZ.

4. Standard Winchester 209 in a red disc.

5. Yep. It was a 2-7X32 Bushnell Elite 3200. I was hunting woods so I wanted more field of view with the 2X.

6. Russian Boar

7. I just wanted more punch. A buddy of mine in Texas believes they are a hard kill. I didn't want to take a chance on not bringing enough gun. In hindsight I probably shouldn't have bothered with the mag charge.

8. My shot was 35 yds IIRC.

9. 1 Russian boar.

10. No. I needed 1 shot only.

11. Average for most of my shooting is 90-100 gr although for my pistol it's 60 gr. I'm not a big fan of heavy charges but I made an exception for this one hunt.

RE: powder charges..
 

If you're talking about myNew Englander load, I'd compare it to the factory load 45-70 for "old original actions". As sabotloader says, a 30-30 beats it any day, as I consider a 30-30 a 150 yard rifle (175 extreme) and the New Englander a 100 yard rifle (125 extreme).

RE: powder charges..
 

I used to be asked by a lot of new shooters as to what kind of power they can expect from their new muzzleloader. I always told them, a 30-30 would be where I would put it. I have to agree with you guys.

Now Wolfhound's information is real interesting. I consider him a Knight Rifle answer all my questions. If he does not see the need for magnum charges, especially in a Knight, that really sparks my interest. On that big russian boar, did you get complete pass through? What center fire would you compare that load you shot.. to?

Didn't Jim Shockey in his Knight years simply use 100 grains of Pyrodex RS and a Nosler bullet? I mean face it, he hunted moose (one hunt of his I watched was most exciting), bear, you name it, and always his Knight. I think that was a Disc but would not swear to it. Then he had that Revolution that I often wondered if he really liked.

So far people, we are not much for the high power magnum muzzleloaders we were described as by some and in many magazines of course.

RE: powder charges..
 

Ya' know, cayugad, I think it's all in the head of the shooter.

Several guys I know with in-lines and sabots consider them 200 yard guns, and maybe they are. But I can tell you, most of these guysare not 200 yard shooters. I see them set up on a bench a week or two before the season, put three or fourshots in a six-inch circle at 100 yards, and that's it for them. They're satisfied. The next shot they take will be at game and if they get a 200 yard shot they'll take it. Fortunately, most shotsare at less than 75 yards anyway, so they get their deer andare real happy with their "200 yard muzzleloader."

I'm a pretty decent shot with a rest. I stink offhand. I know the limitations of my gun and myself and hunt accordingly. In thirty years ofhunting I've lost one deer that I know I hit. My longest shot ever on game was 190 yards with a 25-06.

RE: powder charges..
 

Semisane, we must use the same play book. I could not agree with you more there.

I used to be pretty good off hand, but now I do not trust myself. I use shooting sticks, trees, or I will drop to a knee when ever possible. I have never considered any of my muzzleloaders 200 yard rifles, although I think they could do it if I practice. I just don't have a 200 yard range where I now live. And where I hunt, 200 yards would be field only.

I was shooting 150 yards one afternoon with my Thompson Center Black Diamond XR at a friend's farm. I was shooting 110 grains of Goex and a 250 grain Shockwave. After I found where to hold, even off the shooting sticks, I could slip all the shots into a 9" paper plate and the actual group was smaller then that. But I still would not want to shoot that far.

In my younger days I used to shoot a couple center firerifles and made some long distance shots that my friendstill talk/kid meabout. I look back on those shots and now, would not even consider trying them. We used to practice offa bench rest in a farmer's field where we would shoot across his fields and practice out to 400 yards and further. One season, adoe in particular was over 500 yards away standing out in the field looking at us up in the woods on a hillside. I guessed her much closer though. As a joke I called my shot. Since she was looking at me I told the three other guys with me (we were spotting fields), I'd shoot her in the head. That way if I missed I missed. Using my Ruger 7mm Mag with a 3-9x40mm Tasco scope I touched off and she folded right there. The bullet (150 gr Remington corelock) hit her perfect centered, right under the chin in the throat. Took out the jugler and broke her neck.

With my eye sight now,(corrected even) and no scope, I limit my shots to 100 yards, maybe a little further if the lighting is right. Light plays tricks on my focus for some reason. With a scope I would stretch that to 125 yards. For me that is a far fling from what I would do with my center rifle rifles.

I have a friend that swears the 25-06 is the best deer rifle he has ever owned. Never shot one myself. I always wanted the 7mm mag or 30-06. :D

RE: powder charges..
 

Neat story. You never forget those days. When the "big one" takes you and you're knocking on the golden gates they'll kid you about that shot.

From a bench I can shoot three-inch 300 yard groups with my 25-06 and a 3X9 Leupold. Just never shot game that far.

RE: powder charges..
 

1) I have in the past
2) Gonic and Rem 700 MLS 26"
3) 460 conical and 300gr Hornady XTP
4) #11
5) Yes
6) Moose and Black Bear
7) In the case of the Gonic it wasthe spot, but withthe rem 700 I figured the extra power would be useful and gave up group size(have sinced learned from that thought:D).
8) 200 yards
9) Yes both species
10) Yes missed a buck with the gonic
11) As mentioned I did in the past but have since moved to 777 loose powder and shoot 90-110gr depending on the rifle and projectile.

RE: powder charges..
 

Complete pass through. I wouldn't compare it to a centerfire though. I didn't get a muzzle velocity on it so it would be hard to compare. Knight ballistic data shows 2013 for that bullet and 3 Pyro pellets with 2249 ft/lbs at the muzzle so it would be close to that.

Using Hodgdon's reloading data center as a guide I find muzzle velocity to be close to a 30-30 and a 150 gr bullet. Figuring muzzle energy I get 1455 ft/lbs. I have it beat in energy but it beats me in trajectory.Picking cartridges in 45 caliber I find the closest muzzle velocity to whatKnight says with the 444 Marlin using a 240 gr Bullet at 2055 fps for 2251 ft lbs. FYI this is the lowest velocity listed. Most dataI found shows the 444 Marlin with much faster MV's of 2100- 2700. IMO the 444 Marlin with low end loads is the closest centerfire to a muzzleloader. A couple links for info.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
http://home.earthlink.net/~hwsportsman/444Marlin.html
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/0611/index1.html

RE: powder charges..
 

This is some interesting information. I honestly thought there would be more "magnum charge" shooters out there.

On the TV hunting shows, where they shoot the Encores and Pro Hunters, most of them are shooting three pellets and a 250 grain Shockwave I noticed. And they seem comfortable to some 200 yards or less in shots. Maybe it is the make and style of the rifle that likes the magnum charges?

RE: powder charges..
 

Dave, You kinda know I like heavy loads for elk, I use a White U-Mwith a 460 bullshop conical,110 grains of T7 with a wad no.11 magnum cap. Peep sight fibre optic front sight, Yes I am an ol timer too, I feel confident out to 200 yards with a range finder, sighted in at 118 yars I am 6" low at 160 and 20" low at 200 yards I practice a lot,a 200 yard shot would have to be from the prone position. I have taken Elk with this load and found the bullets intact under the skin on the opposite side. As far as comparing to a centerfire,I have shot a lot of bull elk with a 7mm and 300 weatherby The damage inflicted by the 460 conical is equal to the rifles ,now that does not include hydr-static shock of course but internal damage is very impressive. No way is a ML equal to a CF as far as trajectory is concerned

Right now my ML rifle for deer is a 410 White, 70 grains of T7 400 grain NE
never shot a deer with it yet tho,most of my ML deer have been with a Renegade,Savage, an Omega, never heavy loads. I use what the situation calls for.
Redclub

RE: powder charges..
 

(1) I don't know why the standard drops for loose powder. But I shoot 120gr loose powder, be it APP FFG, T7 FFG, or Pyrodex RS in my two inlines

(2) T/C Omega, CVA Kodiak, 28" bbls

(3) I generally use 250gr T/C Shockwaves

(4) .209 Primers

(5) The T/C wears a scope except in the month of December (ML season)

(6) Mule Deer

(7) Both. I group very well with 120gr powder in both guns, and I like the ballistic advantage to slow moving conicals at distances over 100 yards.

(8) I feel these loads have the power to cleanly take deer at 200 yards; less than 7" drop and over 1000 ft/lbs with a bullet I've had great luck with. I would not be afraid to up the powder charge to 150gr for even farther shots (225-250yds) because my accuracy suffers little with these heavy charges. This is under the assumption of use in Rifle season where a scope can help me make the shot relatively easily.

(9) Yes

(10) No

(11) I put 90 in the Hawken

RE: powder charges..
 

Great Topic!

I will this year since you include 120 grains loose powder

Knight T-Bolt .50 Cal - Green Mountain - stainless - 22" - 1 in 28

Barnes SpitFire TMZ Expander 250

CCI Musket Caps I think they say extra strength or something

Yes - Bushnell Elite 3200 - 3x9x40

Southern Whitetail

Best accuracy with magnum load. I shot groups with 80 90 100 110 120 and 130 grains of loose 777 2F. Two inch groups with 80 90 100 and 110. Went to 120 and immediatly started shooting sub 1 3/8" repeatable groups. At 130 the groups went back to 2", but the first two bullets were in the same hole then got a flyer. Tried again and did about the same thing. Still have to try 125 and 115 to see what happens.

I'll try 150 at the range and if I get acceptable groups I would take a shot at deer at that distance if everything is perfect. Hope to get within 100 though.

No

No

These are other load bullet combinations I found the most accurate for my guns.

TC Hawken .45 - #11 Dynamit- 70 grains Pyro RS - 45 CAL 285 Great Plain Conicals

Knight T-Bolt .50 - 80 grains 777 2F - Hornady 240 XTP

Knight T-Bolt .50 - 90 grains 777 2F - ShockWave 250

Holley

RE: powder charges..
 

Redclub, that is still impressive to consider that the big conical is resting against the skin on the other side. I know you like the big loads and have seen how well you shoot with that peep sight. You almost, and still might have me getting one of them Lyman SMT peeps. Kind of wanted to get another White to put that on... :D:D:D I've seen what the damage is from large conicals on deer and that was one reason I stopped using them for many years. But they have my interest again. I did shoot some 100 grains loaded with the 500 grains Conical and they were not as bad as I first suspected the recoil to be. My fear was scope eye. If it had a peep I am sure I could have shot more.

My one elk hunt was with a 7mm magnum (bought the rifle just for that hunt)many manyyears ago. It really was not what I expected an elk hunt to be, but was still a lot of fun. The country was beautiful. We hit base camp. Played card and drank beerlate into the evening. That following afternoon he took us out. We walked about a mile straight up a mountain (how that guide could just walk along wassomething to watch. He never even puffed.)whch was the worst part, and at the top was a small meadow where he sent me to stand. I shot my 3x4 bull at a distance of maybe 60 yards. I got complete pass through. That animal never even ran, just layed down, stretchedits head forward and that was it. Not a real impressive animal, but when you're young.. that did not seem important. Besides, I all saw was horns. It had to be the best eating animal I have ever shot.

Good thing I practiced to 400 yards for that hunt like the guide told us to. The guide had a very large mule, jacka$$, what ever it was. Not real friendly, but it could sure haul elk better then I could. The guide did tell me that most hunts were much harder and longer then mine. In fact they kidded me about that.

Maybe after things settle down at the house, I can start planning some more hunts. I have a few critters I really want to hunt before I am too crippled up to do it... :D

RE: powder charges..
 

Cay...I believe Shocky's standard load was the 300gr Barnes and 100 grains before he switched to Nosler...

I have 2 muzzleloaders for deer...My .54 flinter that I built and my Knight Disc, I bought on clearance from Bass Pro several years ago (It has a 22 inch barrel)...

With the flinter I have shot 125 grs of powder and a ball, but I was having to put nesting material over the powder as I was burning patches...Went to 100grs for a few years and have settled on 80 for 5 years or so...Dang if I can tell the difference in deer, I actually have a theory that with higher velocities the ball mushrooms more on impact so you don't really see more pass throughs...Not really sure, but 80 is a light kicking load and is all that's needed for whitetails...Franky with open sights you need to hold your shots to somewhere around 125 or so...As long as a load shoots fairly flat out to that range, more powder isn't needed...With muzzleloaders it's more about the weight of the projectile...That's why some like the PowerBelt and some don't...If you move to the ?348 gr PowerBelt you should see full penetration...

In my Knight...btw I have probably shot 5-600 rounds through, even though I have only killed 20 deer or so with...
I have tried up to 120 grains FFF triple 7...Dang thing kicked like a mule and didn't group worth a dang with 5-6 different bullets...

The first 2-3 years with the Knight I used 2-Pyrodex pellets and a 300 grain Barnes copper....This will always exit on our deer down here in NC...btw...I too bought into the early reports on pellets giving more velocity...I have since gone back to either Pyrodex, I picked up 3 cans for $5 a can a few years ago, or just Goex FFF...I used this for my flintlocks and the distributor is about an hour down the road ($11.50 a pound)...

I have now gotten away from the pellets and shoot 90grs Pyrodex R-S or 90grs Goex FFF and a 250 Shockwave...I have killed several deer with this and a buddy a few more...I moved to this because it is more aerodynamic than the Barnes and my Knight with this bullet will group in the 2 - 2 1/2 inch area at 150, but that is my pre set limit...

RE: powder charges..
 

Dave: I will try to keep this as short as possible. I do not shoot magnum loads. First elk was huge cow mid 600 pounds, 348 powerbelt from T/C Scout with 80gr. Goex Clear Shot (crappy powder). Bullet keyholed and went through center of heart sideways and lodged in far side between ribcage and skin aerotip still in bullet. Distance was 80 yards. Next M/L Elk was small bull head shot at 40 yards, T/C Omega 90gr. Black Mag'3 and 300gr. SST. Last one was fair sized cow broadside at 90 yards, T/C Omega 90gr. BM3 300gr. SST, one lung and part of liver, complete pass through, Second shot 90gr. BM3 295gr. Powerbelt aerotip, running shot offhand at 85 yards, double lung (probably more luck than skill but she was already hit so I had to chance it) bullet was complete pass through also. Cow went another 200 yards and was still standing when I head shot her to finish it. Now that I have the T-Bolt I might try a magnum load just to see how it shoots that. I want to get the rifle well sighted in for shots at the 150 yard range. I passed one up at 140 yards ranged last hunt because the Omega is not consistent for me at that range. The T-bolt is going to weigh close to 9 1/2 pounds when scoped so I possibly can take the recoil. I only weigh 155 pounds and have ashattered collar bone and a once broken neck so recoil is not my favorite thing.

RE: powder charges..
 

More thoughts...I bought my first flintlock in the mid-70s...Custom made, .45 caliber, round ball only...I hunted with this until 1990 or so, when I finished my .54....I was younger (could see better) and many years I never pulled out my .243, just fell in love with shooting the fllintlock...I had 2 powder charges...50 grains FFF that I used for squirrels, rabbits etc, and I did kill one wild turkey with in '79...

The other charge was 75 grains FFF for deer...I probably killed 40-50 deer with this load...I knew it would penetrate a 2x4 at 75 yards and found out that it would go through shoulder blades, spine, ribs, lungs, whatever was needed to get into the vitals...It didn't usually pass through, but it mushroomed great and they didn't go over 50-75 yards...It was really all that's needed, inside 75-100 yards or so...

When I decided to build a .54, I did a ton of research...I was looking for a bear rifle as I had an incident with a pretty good sized black bear on one of our farms in NC...I wanted to stay with a flintlock and a patched ball...In doing my research I learned that with regular black powder you reach a plateau, or an area of diminishing returns...Also, lets face it, with real black powder you just have a heck of a time getting over 2,000 fps and anywhere between 1600-1800 fps will shoot pretty flat out to 100 yards or so...Heck, hit a deer with a all copper .54 caliber ball that can't expand and you still have a pretty good wound through the lungs....

Finally...I got the 1st edition of the Longhunter Society...Its the NMLRA record book...The record grizzly bear was killed with 120grains FF Goex and a .530 lead ball, shot at 100 yards the ball passed through both lungs and was found under the skin on the off side...I figured that was good enough for me...And it has been.

RE: powder charges..
 

From looking at the posts so far, while some push the max load for the rifle, very few find it necessary. And yet the job is getting done. The information on elk and bear I find real interesting as they are hard to pass through with a muzzleloader projectile from what I have been told.

120 grains of Goex FF and a .530 roundball would be a good load. In my .58 caliber I shoot 110 grains of Goex 2f and that .570 grain roundball and the power of that load is excellent. I am guessing that would have some real bone breaking ability.

RE: powder charges..
 

I'm also finding these posts extremely interesting. I called my "gotta shoot 3 pellets" buddy in my office at lunchtime and let him read the thread. I think he is finally getting the picture. It's pretty uncommon to find many deer here over two hundred pounds, and people are getting what I would consider extreme penetration on elk and bear...without magnum charges. Awsome!

In my situation Iam getting comparable accuracy with three loads...80g 240 XTC, 90g 250 ShockWave, and 120g TMZ. I had chosen the TMZ from a ballistic standpoint, though I havent run the numbers yet. I just figured the trajectory would be alot better with the extra velocity. Though...at the distances I plan on shooting it probably wont make much difference anyway. Just thinking out loud.:D

Holley

RE: powder charges..
 

Reading in a recent issue of Guns & Ammo, I noted that a representative from Hodgdon Powder Co., discussing their new 777 MAGNUM pellets, stated that a 250-grain sabotted bullet fired with two of these delivered more muzzle energy than a .30/'06 with a 200-grain bullet!

Elsewhere in this article, a MV of 2000 FPS was claimed for this load. Being the wise-guy that I am, I could not accept this statement without seeing for myself. My trusty calculator gave me a figure of 2221 foot/pounds for the KE of the 250-grain sabot load. But when I figured out the 200-grain .30/'06 load, I was amazed that the '06 actually delivers in the vicintiy of 1,000 foot/pounds MORE energy than the sabot does with those magnum pellets. I can fire a 200-grain 308" bullet from my '06 at 2680 FPS, which works out to 3190foot-pounds. In addition, that 200-gr PSPBT will carry a lot more energy all the way past 1000 yards much better than the best ML bullet ever made.

Now, we all know that "foot-pounds" is a very poor indicator of killing power, and that a big fat slug from a ML is pretty devastating. But I still believe we really have to take a lot of these claims with a big glob of salt! I think we get more killing power from a ML by increasing the size & weight of its' bullets, not by trying to make a modern, high-powdered rifle out of it by putting in more powder. There is definitely a point of diminishing returns when it comes to trying to burn more and more powder.....

RE: powder charges..
 

WELL DONE!!! I do not know why someone from Hodgdon would make such a false statement. Why people seem to think that they can compare muzzleloaders to high power center fire rifles is beyond me. I can take almost anyones well sighted centerfire in medium level .30 cal and make a 200 yard shot with ease. I do not even attempt it with any of my muzzleloaders as I have not spent the time and effort to develop that level of shooting with them. I tried with my Omega to reach 200 yards but the rifle just is not repeatable enough yet. Now that I have a couple of White .504's things might look up for those longer shots but they will never match a 30-06 or similar cartridge gun for longer accurate shots without the effort.

RE: powder charges..
 

I have never shot "magnum" loads out of any of my rifles. The deer I hunt are small in comparrision to most of the country. A 140lb deer is a very big deer where I hunt. That being said: most of my loads are in the 80-110 grain range. My Genesis' sweet spot is100grns.That being said, ifit shot better at 80 then I'd shoot that because I don't feel the need to shoot a magnum charge.A second reason is because I never shoot over 75 yards. The woods I hunt are so thick you most of the time can't see more than 40 or 50yrds so I don't need to worry about ft lbs at 200yrds. Roundballs out of my hawkin and K. Rifle are pushed by 80 grns. I generally get pass throughs on all my deer even w/the 80grns and a PRB. Why increase it?

I know guys that swear by the 150 charge but its overkill at least where we hunt.

RE: powder charges..
 

For about three years i usedvery heavy charges of Pyrodex in my muzzleloaders. Used 130 grains and more of granularor three, 50 grain pellets to shoot hogs and deer. Talked with several experienced m/l hunters and found out thatthese heavy loads were not necessary.

Stopped using Pyrodex pellets andwent to 100 grains of granular Pyrodex with the 240 grain XTP bullet. This load killed deer and hogs just as dead as the heavier loads. A few hogs were killed with 100 grains of granular Pyrodex andthe .44 caliber, 300 grain XTP bullets from my CVA Mag. Hunter.

Bought an Encore last fall. Found out that it shoots very well with 90 grains of JSG and the 250 grain SST. Killedseven deer and hogs with that load. All were bang flops except one deer that was shot low in the shoulders.

Found some 50 grain Pyrodex pellets stashed awayand have started using them in my cheap and very accurate Stag Horn. That gun likes nearly every load i have ever tried in it.With the .44 caliber XTP it shoots to thesame point of aim with 100 grains of granularas it does with two 50 grain pellets.

For me there isa challenge to hunting with a muzzleloader. You have one shot. It gives me the incentive to hone up onhunting skills that i do not use whenzapping a pig or deer at 400 yards with a .300 Win Mag.Do notknowthe velocity ofmost of my favoritem/l loads and could care less.They work well for me, even at ranges longer than 150 yards.

The .58 caliber Springfield rifled musket used during the Civil War used 60 grains of black powder. The Minie "ball" weighed about 500 grains. Velocity was about 1,000 fps. At 600 yards the bullet would penetrate six one-inch pine boards. We have come a long way since then: Or have we really?

RE: powder charges..
 

1) Last year was my first year with a ML. I used 110 gr of 777 3f.

2) Last year was a White Ultra Mag, 26" barrel. This year will either be the Ultra Mag or the new Lightning (22" barrel). Haven't decided.

3) 460 gr Bullshop

4) #11 (RWS)

5) No. Although the Lightning does have a scope on it right now, if I only had an opportunity to get out shooting. It will come off before hunting season.

6) Deer. Would love to elk hunt, but just not the time at this stage of my life.

7) For me, I was trying to squeek out flattest trajectory I could get. I hunt open country. As far as effectiveness on game, I do not think the difference in powder charge using these big conicals makes that much difference. This is just based on what I have read and what makes sense to me.

8) I would feel comfortable taking a 150 yard shot if the conditions were right.

9) No.

10) No.

11) 110 gr last year.

A couple things to note. I am still thinking it out in my mind what charge I will shoot this year. I may very well back down from the 110 gr load. Just have to think it though.

When I hunt I carry a walking/shooting stick. I have it as long as it will go and I have found that it works great as opposed to shooting offhand. There are no trees where I hunt. Last year my son and I were just ending a hunt through an area when a coyote appeared. I estimated at about 100 yards and it was down a fairly steep hill. He was walking from right to left and did not see us. I quickly decided to aim low as I was shooting downhill. He never knew what hit him and went flying through the air, over the side of the hill. He was howling in pain while I was reloading. We went down and I thought for sure we would find him, but all we found was blood. After thinking the shot through I believe I compensated and shot a littletoo low. I believe if it were a deer or elk, it would have been down.

I have shot 120 gr of 777 behind the 460 Bullshop and 100 gr of 777 behind a 620 gr Bullshop. I think most would be surprised that the recoil is not as bad as one might assume. It is stiff, but totally manageable.

RE: powder charges..
 

Cdaddy

It matters not whether you are shooting steep uphill or steep downhill - either one you have to compensate up.... Took me along time to justify that in my mind... but some marine sargent told me to quit thinking and follow his direction - he knew how to shoot, after all he was a Marine- I was just a Navy swab trying to pass a course...

Oh by the way i spelled collage correctly in that post I was not spelling college - gee whiz i went to calledge...

RE: powder charges..
 

SL,
I agree, it doesn't matter if you are shooting uphill or downhill, the effect is the same. But, I don't agree with compensating up.

I was sighted in about 3" high with that load at 100. Since I was shooting downhill, the bullet does not drop as much as it would if I were shooting on flat ground. So, I aimed low. Problem was, I aimed to far low. Are you saying the same thing, or do we have an arguement??? :D

RE: powder charges..
 

Cdaddy

Yep, I think we have a real live discussion... gravity is gravity... and steep angles are steep whether they are uphill or downhill - get your range finder out - if it has a ballistic scale it will show you what I am talking about. It will read one range for a flat range and it will read another range at steep angles whether they are up or down...

RE: powder charges..
 

1. How many of you shoot magnum powder charges for hunting?
2. What rifle(s) do you shoot these magnum powder charges out of? ie; brand, model, barrel length
3. What projectile are you shooting when using magnum charges?
4. What ignition system are you shooting?
5. Is this a scoped rifle?
6. What animal are you hunting?
7. Do you feel this is a benifit with the magnum loads or is this the powder charge that gives you the best accuracy?
8. What do you feel is the max range you would be willing to shoot, if all things were perfect in relation to the shot?
9. Have you ever taken game with this load?
10. Have you ever missed with this load on game?
11. If you do not shoot MAGNUM CHARGES, what is the average non magnum powder charges, you do shoot in your rifles?

Answers:
1. I normally shoot 150 grains of Pyrodex or 777 pellets.

2. I have a T/C Encore with a laminated thumbhole stock with 28” SS barrel.

3. So far I have used the 250 grains T/C Shockwave and the Barnes Expander MZ hollow point.

4. I currently use the Variflame with a small rifle primer.

5. Yes, I have the Nikon Omega BDC scope.

6. Elk

7. I truly feel that I get greater accuracy using the scope and of course the combination of powder, bullet and primer have the greatest contribution overall.

8. Currently I’m averaging 1 ¼ inches at 100 yards and have not yet shot any farther than that, but I will be working that out in the next few weeks.

9. No

10. I will find out in October.

11. If I’m not shooting 150 grains then I go to 100 grains since I’m only shooting pellets at this time. I will be expanding my horizons with different powders in the next few weeks.

RE: powder charges..
 

T/C Hawkins 50 cal with peep site shoots best with 75 to 85 grains of PB or T7 useing a prb or a mmp sabot and Hornaday HP XTP. The above is good to 100 yards if need be.

T/C Plains Rifle 50 cal 4x weaver k4 scope shoots best with 80 & 85grains of BP or T7 prb & again the MMP sabots and HP XTP's. Again good for 100 yards and maybe a bit more Limiting factor is me.

Remington 700 50 cal #11 caps,scoped with Bushnell 2.5 to 7 shoots its best with 80 gr. T7 MMP sabot and about any thing up put in it. Not afraid to take a shot up to 200 yards with this combo.

Remington 700 54 cal 209 converted,scoped with Bushnell 3 to 9 shoots about any thing you stuff down the barrel with a mear 100 gr. T7. Favorite load is 100 gr. T7 MMP purple 54 cal sabot 300 gr. 50 cal Speer Gold Dot. Not afraid to take a 250yard shot with this combo at any game legal in Michigan.

All above powder charges are loose. I have never tried a pellet after watching my brother shoot the old clear shoot pellets out of his black diamond and watching them smoke as they rolled down range, plus I am a squeeky thight sob.

:)Al

RE: powder charges..
 

You aim lower.

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/article1.html

A simple illustration:


Pardon the poor graphics. If a gun is sightedfor 100 yards on level ground when aiming at a target on an incline 100 yards away by LOS (rangefinder) then the bullet will drop as if you were shooting at the distance on the horrizontal line. Obviously the steeper the angle the greater the difference. Without a specific angle and elevation I can only guess at the proper distance for my drawing. It's mainly meant to illustrate the point.

A compensating rangefinder will show the true horizontal distance.

RE: powder charges..
 

I have a old CVA sidehammer with a 1:66 twist that will about throw an overcharged load behind you. It only wants about 80 grains of FF max. I have taken a couple of does with it but I was real picky about the shots,fifty yards or less and one was a head shot. I hunted for several years with a sidehammer Traditions dearhunter in .54. Now that is a gun that wants a load in it. It shoots roundball just fine at about 90 grains but wont straighten out a conical unless the ante is upped about 20 more. I have used both Great PLains and TC conicals to devastating effect. It's a 1:48 twist. My sweetheart though is my .58 zouave. It has taken a couple of nice bucks and several does with little fuss and muss. My hunting load is pretty simple, 90 grains of ff goex and a patched round ball. It is deadly accurate and impressive terminally.That being said Istill wont shoot at anything much over 75 to 100 yards away.It doesnt like minnies much no matter what amount of powder you stuff down it. Most of my neighbors around here use inline, pellet guns and overdo the pellets. They shoot them about three times a year and declare themselves 200 yard "blackpowder" hunters. Mostly I think they are just overloading their guns no matter what the twist is and I also think that most of them have no business shooting at anything like that range. My twenty three year old neighbor came over to my range with his Omega and set about the business of bragging. When he saw what a target looked like at an honest 200 yards he shut up quickly. But, to be honest, after some tinkering it was putting them into some respectable groups at that distance. His rifle sure didnt like an overload though, and off the bench the recoil was brutal. As I recall we were only putting 100 grains to it for best results.

RE: powder charges..
 

RE: powder charges..
 

See, you don't have to shoot and inline stuffed to the max.

RE: powder charges..
 

Thanks Wolfhound. I can't see your illistration on this computer. Some things get blocked. [:@] But, I think sabotloader has fallen off of his 4-wheelerand hit in the head with a fryingpan too many times and forgot what the marine told him. :D

SL, take that new fancy Leupold rangefinder you got and turn on the incline compensator thingy-ma-bobber. Get up on top of one of the skyscrapers over there in Moscow and rangefind the ground straight down. What does it say? Should be ZERO or close to it. Yes, gravity is gravity, but in this case it would be pulling the bullet STRAIGHT down directly in the path of the bullet, therefore, no drop in the trajectory.

You would have to aim lower than you would if you were on flat ground. You are right though, same effect if you were shooting straight up.