Semisane

Ya' know, cayugad, I think it's all in the head of the shooter.

Several guys I know with in-lines and sabots consider them 200 yard guns, and maybe they are. But I can tell you, most of these guysare not 200 yard shooters. I see them set up on a bench a week or two before the season, put three or fourshots in a six-inch circle at 100 yards, and that's it for them. They're satisfied. The next shot they take will be at game and if they get a 200 yard shot they'll take it. Fortunately, most shotsare at less than 75 yards anyway, so they get their deer andare real happy with their "200 yard muzzleloader."

I'm a pretty decent shot with a rest. I stink offhand. I know the limitations of my gun and myself and hunt accordingly. In thirty years ofhunting I've lost one deer that I know I hit. My longest shot ever on game was 190 yards with a 25-06.

cayugad

Semisane, we must use the same play book. I could not agree with you more there.

I used to be pretty good off hand, but now I do not trust myself. I use shooting sticks, trees, or I will drop to a knee when ever possible. I have never considered any of my muzzleloaders 200 yard rifles, although I think they could do it if I practice. I just don't have a 200 yard range where I now live. And where I hunt, 200 yards would be field only.

I was shooting 150 yards one afternoon with my Thompson Center Black Diamond XR at a friend's farm. I was shooting 110 grains of Goex and a 250 grain Shockwave. After I found where to hold, even off the shooting sticks, I could slip all the shots into a 9" paper plate and the actual group was smaller then that. But I still would not want to shoot that far.

In my younger days I used to shoot a couple center firerifles and made some long distance shots that my friendstill talk/kid meabout. I look back on those shots and now, would not even consider trying them. We used to practice offa bench rest in a farmer's field where we would shoot across his fields and practice out to 400 yards and further. One season, adoe in particular was over 500 yards away standing out in the field looking at us up in the woods on a hillside. I guessed her much closer though. As a joke I called my shot. Since she was looking at me I told the three other guys with me (we were spotting fields), I'd shoot her in the head. That way if I missed I missed. Using my Ruger 7mm Mag with a 3-9x40mm Tasco scope I touched off and she folded right there. The bullet (150 gr Remington corelock) hit her perfect centered, right under the chin in the throat. Took out the jugler and broke her neck.

With my eye sight now,(corrected even) and no scope, I limit my shots to 100 yards, maybe a little further if the lighting is right. Light plays tricks on my focus for some reason. With a scope I would stretch that to 125 yards. For me that is a far fling from what I would do with my center rifle rifles.

I have a friend that swears the 25-06 is the best deer rifle he has ever owned. Never shot one myself. I always wanted the 7mm mag or 30-06.

Semisane

Neat story. You never forget those days. When the "big one" takes you and you're knocking on the golden gates they'll kid you about that shot.

From a bench I can shoot three-inch 300 yard groups with my 25-06 and a 3X9 Leupold. Just never shot game that far.

skeeter 7MM

1) I have in the past
2) Gonic and Rem 700 MLS 26"
3) 460 conical and 300gr Hornady XTP
4) #11
5) Yes
6) Moose and Black Bear
7) In the case of the Gonic it wasthe spot, but withthe rem 700 I figured the extra power would be useful and gave up group size(have sinced learned from that thought).
8) 200 yards
9) Yes both species
10) Yes missed a buck with the gonic
11) As mentioned I did in the past but have since moved to 777 loose powder and shoot 90-110gr depending on the rifle and projectile.

Wolfhound76

Complete pass through. I wouldn't compare it to a centerfire though. I didn't get a muzzle velocity on it so it would be hard to compare. Knight ballistic data shows 2013 for that bullet and 3 Pyro pellets with 2249 ft/lbs at the muzzle so it would be close to that.

Using Hodgdon's reloading data center as a guide I find muzzle velocity to be close to a 30-30 and a 150 gr bullet. Figuring muzzle energy I get 1455 ft/lbs. I have it beat in energy but it beats me in trajectory.Picking cartridges in 45 caliber I find the closest muzzle velocity to whatKnight says with the 444 Marlin using a 240 gr Bullet at 2055 fps for 2251 ft lbs. FYI this is the lowest velocity listed. Most dataI found shows the 444 Marlin with much faster MV's of 2100- 2700. IMO the 444 Marlin with low end loads is the closest centerfire to a muzzleloader. A couple links for info.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
http://home.earthlink.net/~hwsportsman/444Marlin.html
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/0611/index1.html

cayugad

This is some interesting information. I honestly thought there would be more "magnum charge" shooters out there.

On the TV hunting shows, where they shoot the Encores and Pro Hunters, most of them are shooting three pellets and a 250 grain Shockwave I noticed. And they seem comfortable to some 200 yards or less in shots. Maybe it is the make and style of the rifle that likes the magnum charges?

Redclub

Dave, You kinda know I like heavy loads for elk, I use a White U-Mwith a 460 bullshop conical,110 grains of T7 with a wad no.11 magnum cap. Peep sight fibre optic front sight, Yes I am an ol timer too, I feel confident out to 200 yards with a range finder, sighted in at 118 yars I am 6" low at 160 and 20" low at 200 yards I practice a lot,a 200 yard shot would have to be from the prone position. I have taken Elk with this load and found the bullets intact under the skin on the opposite side. As far as comparing to a centerfire,I have shot a lot of bull elk with a 7mm and 300 weatherby The damage inflicted by the 460 conical is equal to the rifles ,now that does not include hydr-static shock of course but internal damage is very impressive. No way is a ML equal to a CF as far as trajectory is concerned

Right now my ML rifle for deer is a 410 White, 70 grains of T7 400 grain NE
never shot a deer with it yet tho,most of my ML deer have been with a Renegade,Savage, an Omega, never heavy loads. I use what the situation calls for.
Redclub

rem 700

(1) I don't know why the standard drops for loose powder. But I shoot 120gr loose powder, be it APP FFG, T7 FFG, or Pyrodex RS in my two inlines

(2) T/C Omega, CVA Kodiak, 28" bbls

(3) I generally use 250gr T/C Shockwaves

(4) .209 Primers

(5) The T/C wears a scope except in the month of December (ML season)

(6) Mule Deer

(7) Both. I group very well with 120gr powder in both guns, and I like the ballistic advantage to slow moving conicals at distances over 100 yards.

(8) I feel these loads have the power to cleanly take deer at 200 yards; less than 7" drop and over 1000 ft/lbs with a bullet I've had great luck with. I would not be afraid to up the powder charge to 150gr for even farther shots (225-250yds) because my accuracy suffers little with these heavy charges. This is under the assumption of use in Rifle season where a scope can help me make the shot relatively easily.

(9) Yes

(10) No

(11) I put 90 in the Hawken

XxHolleyxX

Great Topic!

I will this year since you include 120 grains loose powder

Knight T-Bolt .50 Cal - Green Mountain - stainless - 22" - 1 in 28

Barnes SpitFire TMZ Expander 250

CCI Musket Caps I think they say extra strength or something

Yes - Bushnell Elite 3200 - 3x9x40

Southern Whitetail

Best accuracy with magnum load. I shot groups with 80 90 100 110 120 and 130 grains of loose 777 2F. Two inch groups with 80 90 100 and 110. Went to 120 and immediatly started shooting sub 1 3/8" repeatable groups. At 130 the groups went back to 2", but the first two bullets were in the same hole then got a flyer. Tried again and did about the same thing. Still have to try 125 and 115 to see what happens.

I'll try 150 at the range and if I get acceptable groups I would take a shot at deer at that distance if everything is perfect. Hope to get within 100 though.

No

No

These are other load bullet combinations I found the most accurate for my guns.

TC Hawken .45 - #11 Dynamit- 70 grains Pyro RS - 45 CAL 285 Great Plain Conicals

Knight T-Bolt .50 - 80 grains 777 2F - Hornady 240 XTP

Knight T-Bolt .50 - 90 grains 777 2F - ShockWave 250

Holley

cayugad

Redclub, that is still impressive to consider that the big conical is resting against the skin on the other side. I know you like the big loads and have seen how well you shoot with that peep sight. You almost, and still might have me getting one of them Lyman SMT peeps. Kind of wanted to get another White to put that on... I've seen what the damage is from large conicals on deer and that was one reason I stopped using them for many years. But they have my interest again. I did shoot some 100 grains loaded with the 500 grains Conical and they were not as bad as I first suspected the recoil to be. My fear was scope eye. If it had a peep I am sure I could have shot more.

My one elk hunt was with a 7mm magnum (bought the rifle just for that hunt)many manyyears ago. It really was not what I expected an elk hunt to be, but was still a lot of fun. The country was beautiful. We hit base camp. Played card and drank beerlate into the evening. That following afternoon he took us out. We walked about a mile straight up a mountain (how that guide could just walk along wassomething to watch. He never even puffed.)whch was the worst part, and at the top was a small meadow where he sent me to stand. I shot my 3x4 bull at a distance of maybe 60 yards. I got complete pass through. That animal never even ran, just layed down, stretchedits head forward and that was it. Not a real impressive animal, but when you're young.. that did not seem important. Besides, I all saw was horns. It had to be the best eating animal I have ever shot.

Good thing I practiced to 400 yards for that hunt like the guide told us to. The guide had a very large mule, jacka$$, what ever it was. Not real friendly, but it could sure haul elk better then I could. The guide did tell me that most hunts were much harder and longer then mine. In fact they kidded me about that.

Maybe after things settle down at the house, I can start planning some more hunts. I have a few critters I really want to hunt before I am too crippled up to do it...