Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
08-05-2007, 02:00 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location:
Posts: 40
Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
I have a friend who for several years has shot 150 grain charges out of his TC Black Diamond. His accuracy stinks for a scoped inline rifle. This morning on his way in from fishing he came out to my range so we could bench test it. He shot a group...about 8" at 100 yards. I told him to try 100 grains just to see what it would do. I have been telling him since he got his ML to try this but he has refused bacause he says "I want the bullet to go throught the deer." I told him I have gotten pass throughs on whitetails with my TC Hawken with 70 grains butI dontalways. Then I thought of something. I asked him to let meshoot a group with his rifle. He agreed. I loaded two 777 pellets and a 240 TC XTP. Fired the first shot, swabbed the barrel and loaded another. After the shot said "it must be bad since you arent saying where it hit." I told him I hought it might have hit the same hole. He said "if it hit the same hole it was a fluke." We walked to the target and sure enough, one oblong hole. The third shot was bit left, but snugged in nicely completing a sub 1 1/2" group. He thought his rifle sucked, andwasvery happyto say the least, but still worried that 100 grains wont completely penetrate the deer.
What is everyone experience with terminal performance vs. powder charge with different bullets?
What is a good choice of bullet with penetration in mind?
I dont know because I have only shot deer with 70 grains and conicals.
I gave him the rest of my box of pellets since I'm not using the pellets anymore and the bullets. He gave me a cooler full of fresh crappie. mmm...fresh crappie for dinner tonight!
Holley
What is everyone experience with terminal performance vs. powder charge with different bullets?
What is a good choice of bullet with penetration in mind?
I dont know because I have only shot deer with 70 grains and conicals.
I gave him the rest of my box of pellets since I'm not using the pellets anymore and the bullets. He gave me a cooler full of fresh crappie. mmm...fresh crappie for dinner tonight!
Holley
08-05-2007, 02:32 PM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Holley
I have 2 pet loads for deer...
Load 1, whichI can not afford anymore because of the costs of Nosler Partitions...
.451/260 gr. Nosler Partiton HP
MMP - HPH-24 sabot
100/110 grains of T7-2f
Remington 209-4 primer
Load 2, this load I can afford and the bonded Speer hold together...
.452/250 gr. Speer Gold Dot bonded HP ( a poormans Nosler)
MMP - HPH-24 sabot
100/110 grains of T7-2f
Remington 209-4
Load 3, I am going to shoot this one this year - I promise myself...
10mm/200 gr Hornady XTP
MMP HPH-3p-EZ load sabot
110 grains T7-2f
Remington 209-4
Here is a Speer targey from my U-mag...
I have 2 pet loads for deer...
Load 1, whichI can not afford anymore because of the costs of Nosler Partitions...
.451/260 gr. Nosler Partiton HP
MMP - HPH-24 sabot
100/110 grains of T7-2f
Remington 209-4 primer
Load 2, this load I can afford and the bonded Speer hold together...
.452/250 gr. Speer Gold Dot bonded HP ( a poormans Nosler)
MMP - HPH-24 sabot
100/110 grains of T7-2f
Remington 209-4
Load 3, I am going to shoot this one this year - I promise myself...
10mm/200 gr Hornady XTP
MMP HPH-3p-EZ load sabot
110 grains T7-2f
Remington 209-4
Here is a Speer targey from my U-mag...
08-05-2007, 02:39 PM
#3
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Out of his Black Diamond tell him to try two pellets and a 250 grain Shockwave. Like you, I can only guess what the penetration of the modern projectiles will be since I have little hands on experience. I normally end up hunting with a simple roundball combination that has been killing my deer for more years then I can remember.
The old myth of magnum rifles need magnum loads is busted. Too many shooters (and good shooters I might add) on this forum alone have posted results and targets of what a simple 100 or 110 grain powder charge will do and at some amazing distances I might add.
Which projectile is best.. I like the copper stuff if I want to penetrate or the shockwave type bullets. Yet I hunt with a pure lead 375 grain Buffalo Bullet SSB out of my Black Diamond XR (which will kill an elk by the way) because of the accuracy.
The big lead Buffalo Bullets are a Spitzer point and they really have good energy to them.
These shockwaves I was testing out on a real windy day. But had got some Triple Se7en powder that day and was seeing how well it shot these Shockwaves. Any of them would make excellent hunting loads.
The old myth of magnum rifles need magnum loads is busted. Too many shooters (and good shooters I might add) on this forum alone have posted results and targets of what a simple 100 or 110 grain powder charge will do and at some amazing distances I might add.
Which projectile is best.. I like the copper stuff if I want to penetrate or the shockwave type bullets. Yet I hunt with a pure lead 375 grain Buffalo Bullet SSB out of my Black Diamond XR (which will kill an elk by the way) because of the accuracy.
The big lead Buffalo Bullets are a Spitzer point and they really have good energy to them.
These shockwaves I was testing out on a real windy day. But had got some Triple Se7en powder that day and was seeing how well it shot these Shockwaves. Any of them would make excellent hunting loads.
08-05-2007, 03:10 PM
#5
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 238
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Holley-Tell your friend that it will totally pass thru with the
100 grains no problem at all.Years ago when I first started
blackpowder hunting I also had the same concerns.I had the
T/C Renegade for my first rifle then.My load was 90 grains of
pyrodex with a T/C maxi hunter bullet.My deer came along that
morning which was a nice four point buck which I shot behind
the front leg taking out both lungs and breaking the shoulder on
the far side when it exited the deer.Deer probably went 20 yards
before falling.What really impressed me was the bullet not only
passed thru the deer but also so thru a 4 inch sampling tree behind
it and I dug the bullet out of the ground and I knew then that 90
grains was more than enough for a pass thru and made a believer
to me that it was more than enough horsepower so tell your friend
not to be concerned about it.I now shoot a Barnes Expander with
90 grains with the same results and that load is awesome also.So
you gave your friend some good advice! Mike
100 grains no problem at all.Years ago when I first started
blackpowder hunting I also had the same concerns.I had the
T/C Renegade for my first rifle then.My load was 90 grains of
pyrodex with a T/C maxi hunter bullet.My deer came along that
morning which was a nice four point buck which I shot behind
the front leg taking out both lungs and breaking the shoulder on
the far side when it exited the deer.Deer probably went 20 yards
before falling.What really impressed me was the bullet not only
passed thru the deer but also so thru a 4 inch sampling tree behind
it and I dug the bullet out of the ground and I knew then that 90
grains was more than enough for a pass thru and made a believer
to me that it was more than enough horsepower so tell your friend
not to be concerned about it.I now shoot a Barnes Expander with
90 grains with the same results and that load is awesome also.So
you gave your friend some good advice! Mike
08-05-2007, 06:14 PM
#6
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Rantoul IL USA
Posts: 193
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
175yd shot with a 250gn Barnes MZ in front of 120gn of T7 2f was a complete pass through... that is a long way out there and it still had enough thump to pass through a fork horn, rib/heart/lungs/and rib going out...
08-05-2007, 06:22 PM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 5,425
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
Remind him that the 45/70 was used to kill many a buffalo...
If he wants full penetration tell him to shoot either the 250 Barnes all copper or the 300...with 90-110 grains of powder, its more than you need for whitetails...I shot the 300 for years and always got a pass through...
I have shot the 250 SST for 3-4 years now with 90 grains of Goex FFF and have had pass throughs on the 7-8 whitetail that I have used it for.
If he wants full penetration tell him to shoot either the 250 Barnes all copper or the 300...with 90-110 grains of powder, its more than you need for whitetails...I shot the 300 for years and always got a pass through...
I have shot the 250 SST for 3-4 years now with 90 grains of Goex FFF and have had pass throughs on the 7-8 whitetail that I have used it for.
08-05-2007, 08:17 PM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
ORIGINAL: XxHolleyxX
I have a friend who for several years has shot 150 grain charges out of his TC Black Diamond. His accuracy stinks for a scoped inline rifle. This morning on his way in from fishing he came out to my range so we could bench test it. He shot a group...about 8" at 100 yards. I told him to try 100 grains just to see what it would do. I have been telling him since he got his ML to try this but he has refused bacause he says "I want the bullet to go throught the deer." I told him I have gotten pass throughs on whitetails with my TC Hawken with 70 grains butI dontalways. Then I thought of something. I asked him to let meshoot a group with his rifle. He agreed. I loaded two 777 pellets and a 240 TC XTP. Fired the first shot, swabbed the barrel and loaded another. After the shot said "it must be bad since you arent saying where it hit." I told him I hought it might have hit the same hole. He said "if it hit the same hole it was a fluke." We walked to the target and sure enough, one oblong hole. The third shot was bit left, but snugged in nicely completing a sub 1 1/2" group. He thought his rifle sucked, andwasvery happyto say the least, but still worried that 100 grains wont completely penetrate the deer.
What is everyone experience with terminal performance vs. powder charge with different bullets?
What is a good choice of bullet with penetration in mind?
I dont know because I have only shot deer with 70 grains and conicals.
I gave him the rest of my box of pellets since I'm not using the pellets anymore and the bullets. He gave me a cooler full of fresh crappie. mmm...fresh crappie for dinner tonight!
Holley
I have a friend who for several years has shot 150 grain charges out of his TC Black Diamond. His accuracy stinks for a scoped inline rifle. This morning on his way in from fishing he came out to my range so we could bench test it. He shot a group...about 8" at 100 yards. I told him to try 100 grains just to see what it would do. I have been telling him since he got his ML to try this but he has refused bacause he says "I want the bullet to go throught the deer." I told him I have gotten pass throughs on whitetails with my TC Hawken with 70 grains butI dontalways. Then I thought of something. I asked him to let meshoot a group with his rifle. He agreed. I loaded two 777 pellets and a 240 TC XTP. Fired the first shot, swabbed the barrel and loaded another. After the shot said "it must be bad since you arent saying where it hit." I told him I hought it might have hit the same hole. He said "if it hit the same hole it was a fluke." We walked to the target and sure enough, one oblong hole. The third shot was bit left, but snugged in nicely completing a sub 1 1/2" group. He thought his rifle sucked, andwasvery happyto say the least, but still worried that 100 grains wont completely penetrate the deer.
What is everyone experience with terminal performance vs. powder charge with different bullets?
What is a good choice of bullet with penetration in mind?
I dont know because I have only shot deer with 70 grains and conicals.
I gave him the rest of my box of pellets since I'm not using the pellets anymore and the bullets. He gave me a cooler full of fresh crappie. mmm...fresh crappie for dinner tonight!
Holley
Chap Gleason
08-05-2007, 08:32 PM
#9
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 5,180
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
8"group would have me pissin fire lol. Some need to learn to back off the powder. This 150 grain mag load is way over rated and not needed. You dont even need the bullet to go through both sides either, Its nice when they do blow through both lungs, it drops them fast, but is not needed. All of my deer were pass through double lung shots and one complete pass through head shot.
08-05-2007, 11:17 PM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,081
RE: Whitetail / Muzzle Velocity / Penetration
With many bullets you will get better penetration at lower velocities vs higher velocities. This is due to the bullet being more prone to fragmentation or overexpansionat high velocity. A friend of mine use to shoot a home cast 255gr 44 cal keith bullet in a sabot out of his non magnum CVA using 80gr of RS. H shot a buck once through the front chest, he found the bullet under the hide between the rear legs about 30" from entry with almost 100% weight retention. Velocity was around 1500 to 1600fps at the muzzle. I think 100gr of powder should be plenty.