Greetings Cayugad

I think both camps can co-exist and be happy, even in a single person. Craig Boddington hunts Cape Buffalo with an expanding SP for the first shot but then has a solid in case he needs it for a charge. If the solid was so much superior for killing power he would be using that for his first shot also, but he doesn't, and he has a lot of experience on African dangerous game. In the book that started this thread they talk about a balanced bullet, which is a bullet that expands just enough to create a large wound channel, but still penetrates deeply. A solid or cast bullet doesn't expand and creates a very small wound channel, like an SST for MLers, which tends to shoot thru a deer and not cause a large wound channel.The authors of the book,believe penetration is the key, and some believe hard cast like the LBT series is the way to go because of penetration and reduced cost (he made his own because he had 3 sons and a cousinthat shot 2000 bullets a year), but expeience says that expansion knocks out more vital organs causing disruption of blood flow in the wound channel.So after shot placement, it is penetrationwith expansion and largewound channel in my opinion that kills the animal on the spot and keeps us from from loosing deer because of poor blood trail.
So a balanced bullet. A fragmenting bullet should be avoided, since it doesn't penetrate to the vitals to cleanly kill the animal and a solid or cast bullet should be avoided, since the would channel is too small to effectively kill the animal either on the spot or <50 yards, which aids quick recovery. I am of course assuming good shot placement into the boiler room of the heart/lungs area. I also think it is better to have large wound channel AND shoot thru the animal, since I then has an exellent blood trail to follow. So balanced bullet, examples areNosler Partitionor Barnes TMZ or X bullet, Knight Ultimate Slam something like that. Patch round ball is to be avoided unless range with 50 cal isabout 50 yards since the KE of the ball becomes < 800 ft lbs at 55 yards. I think the .54 cal will extend the range to 75 yards. Does this seem logical as a summary of bullet performance/killing power/KE or is there something missing in my logic such as expeience? That is what I got from the book, but does that square with your experience?

Chap Gleason

No it's from an article by Chuck Hawks called "Choosing an Expert."

gleason chapman - if the experts are not giving a .50 caliber roundball more credit then 50 yards, my friend who has now dropped two deer in their tracksat almost 100 yards, would disagree. And 75 yards for a .54 caliber? At 80 yards the .54 caliber I was shootinghad enough powder and energy to drop two deer where they stood. Granted the second was spined after the pass through of the first, and I finished her with a knife, but still I think the experts are under estimating a lotthere.

I could not agree with your statementmore on that point. As for the size of the wound channel I always think a .50 cal hole VS a .30 caliber hole with marginal expansion (I say marginal because I once had a 30-06 for some reason blow a hole coming out,, no kidding here, what a mess... larger then a softball.. I have yet to figure that one out But that was the extreme in most of my cases). I have recovered very few pure lead projectiles that I cast,from deer as I normally get a complete pass through. Even last year, with a .54 caliber at 52 yards (Bushnell Pro Sport Range Finder), it had the power to travel length ways through a very small deer and still break a rear leg on its travels.

Now some of the postings of Sabotloader reference energy and velocity are most impressive. I personally am not a ballistics person. I just use what I have learned over the years, a projectile that works. By the way this is an interesting topic and I have learned a lot.. thanks.

The roundball experts were the mountain men/fur trappers. The history on how deadly a PRB, is already in the books. IMO, They hunted with them and carried them year round and knew their limits. Modern day experts that only carry them for a week tops each year, dont know jack. 50 yards my rear end!

I was chuckling to myself when I typed that statement...I knew it would get a lot of comments, you guys are actually pretty cordial...Let me give a little more clarification....I'll start with Sabotloader on my comments about a .530 roundball...I bought my first flintlock in 1975, it was a .45, all I ever shot were roundballs, 75grains FFF Goex...It did ok, as long as I kept shots inside of 75 yards...I tested that load, it would penetrate a 2x4 at that range...It would also penetrate a deer's lungs at that range and would be under the skin on the offside...About 1987 I had a close encounter with a bear, I decided to make a .54...at first I used up to 120 grains of FFF Goex as a load, I would put hornet's nesting between the powder and ball to keep from burning through the patches....As I learned more and found more experienced shooters I dropped to 100 and then 80 grains of powder...With flintlocks and open sight, I keep my shots to 125 yards and less...We have plenty of areas in Eastern NC for longer shots, but that's not why I hunt with a muzzleloader...I have killed several deer in the 90-110 yard range with the loading of 80grains and I can tell you, you just don't need more powder, I have gotten pass throughs on shoulder shots and a very dead deer....

On my statement on .243 vs 7mm...I have seen this several times, not only with these two cartridges but with others....The particular case I was thinking about was a hunter that we had come in and shoot 2 does one evening with 175 grain 7mm bullets....I tell you right now he hit the deer behind the shoulder, but the bullets didn't expand properly....Nothing wrong with the 7mm Mag, the hunter just used the wrong bullet....Whereas every bullet that is a 100 grain in .243 is intended for deer and they all seem to work fine, although some give more pass throughs...While we are on that subject, it has been my experience that the bullet that stays in the deer with a centerfire will drop the deer faster...In the case of a .243, within 40-50 yards...If a bullet always goes through, the deer drop about 70-100 yards away from the shot...Now that's with center lung shots....Remember a bullet that penetrates always does not always mean you will have a nice blood trail, sometimes the exit hole gets plugged with internal organs, fat, meat, etc....Also...You will find a blood trail with a bullet that stays in the animal on a lung shot....From the mouth and nose....It might not be as well definded, but its there...

As I have mentioned before, I'm very lucky, I have family farms that I have hunted over 30 years...I have killed at least 250 deer and we kill 40-50 deer off these farms every year...When you start to figure it up that's a heck of a lot of deer...We have 15-20 guests/family/friends, whatever hunt each year, I have to track deer hit with many different calibers...I'll tell you right now, caliber doesn't mean squat, as long as its "reasonable"....A 30-30, .243, 12 gauge slug, 50 caliber Buffalo Bullet, .270, .300 Mag...It doesn't matter....Now if I lived out west where shots start at 200 yards, grizzlies are in the area,etc, I'd probably go with the .300 Mag, but its because of the terrain and the size game, not because the others won't get it done....

As far as range...We try to have our stands set 80-120 yards or so from where we expect to see deer come into the fields, a few stands can have shots out to 4-500 yards, but it is my experience with a high power rifle that once you get out to 150-175 yards or so, hunters start to miss more than I like to see....

When its all said and done, if you use the proper bullet and put it in the proper place a lung shot deer should not go more than 75-100 yards, if you consistantly have deer go farther than that than you are not doing your job...

I am trying to square some of the statements I have read with someone with experience. I don't have enough bullet/ballistics experience to know if something is true or false with round balls or cast bullets. I thought 50 yards was kind sort for a 50 cal, more like 75 I thought. Also I felt 100 was resonable with a.54, but maybe I am not giving that enough credit. I have learned a lot also, thanks for your experience to true up the theory. Chap Gleason

What would you say it is? 100? 125? with a 50 caliber? I am askin' cause I don't know. I am not trying to piss anyone off or provoke them, just trying to get reasonable limits. The statement said in the book was "PRBwere better than their math", but I saw on another web site (chuckhawks.com I believe) that beyond 50 the PRB ran below the magic 800 FPE for a clean kill. How was that 800 fpe arrived at? Cause an arrow doen't have anywhere near that but yet it kills.
Chap

Thank your NC Hawkeye for your post. I agree shot placement is number 1, then penetration, cause you gotta hit something vita, can't hit shoulder and not penetrate and expece to get the deer. After those 2, then comes expansion cause it causes bigger wound cavity. Then comes pass thru for recovery. I alway hunt from a tree stand, either Y-board or ladder stand, usually 10 or 12 feet, and so a pass thru is heading down and the blood trail is quite apparent. I find if a deer is hit well in the boiler room with a ML it doen't go a far as with a 30-06 because of the size of the wound cavity is my theory. I agree hitting in the boiler room produces blood out the mouth, but usually that is after 50 yards or so, if it is tall grass or corn, that is a difficult thing, havested crop field no problem. Dense cover, very difficult. Dense cover next to propety where you don't have permission to trespass, big problem. Several sites I have to hunt are 26 acreas in size, so boom flop is best. Not boom and track for 100 yards or worst track for 200. Chap

Remember the experts say it's impossible for a bee to fly and Galileo was placed under house arrest for having the nerve to claim the earth was round.We all know better now don't we?................Harold

I would hate to state.. a .50 caliber is good for Xdistance. Killing wise, I know they can do it out to 100 yards, but that again boils down to shot placement. The .54 caliber I think has a little longer range to it then the .50. I would again stress only as far as you are able to place shots. For me that is 100 yards. For someone else, that might be further like 125 yards.