100 yard accuracy
 

I'm shooting 5-6 inch groups at 100 yards with a 240 grain Hornady XTP with 110 grains. I worked up to this from 80 grains and it seems to be the most consistant. I went to my local gun shop/smith and they said my trigger couldn't be worked on. It's a CVA Optima Pro, when they asked why I wanted to lighten my trigger I told them I wanted to tighten up my 5-6 inch group at 100 yards and they said that was pretty damn good and I should be happy with that with black powder.

I told them I had heard on the internet of guys shooting1- 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards and they laughed and said a lot of guys say that "on the internet".

Is it asking too much to get tighter groups at 100 yards? I would be happy to settle with this if the guys at the shop are right, as long as I'm in the boiler room of a deer or hog at 100 yards I'm happy.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Sounds like the shop are a bunch of dumb hillbillys that dont know snot about muzzleloading. Call CVA and tell them you want your trigger adjusted and they will do it for you for no cost. Maybe a few bucks to send it to them is all it will cost you. How many lbs is the trigger pull? If it has those plastic sights, ditch them and get you some good sights like truglow. What kind of powder are you using?

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

I mounted a Bushnell Dusk and Dawn on it and I am shooting Pyrodex RS and Triple 7. have'nt noticed much of a difference between the two powders yet other than the RS stinks when I clean between shots.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

If your groups were with open sights and off hand I would say good job. If with a scope and off a rest I would say look for a problem (with the gun or shooter)or change components.

My son's regular Optima shoots around 1.5" with a 250 Shockwave and 80 to 100 gr of Pyro P if I shoot it, around 3" when my 13 year old shoots it.

I don't accept a load till it shoots under 2" at 100 yards off a rest, especially if its with a scope, otherwise I limit the range I will shoot with that gun and load combo. With my Magbolt the best grouping bullet I have tried is the 348HP Powerbelt over 100gr of 777 2F, it usually groups around .75" (sometimes better) if I do my part. Most of the loads I use shoot under 1.5" and they include sabot bullets, conicals and roundball. Some guns, like my Magbolt, like heavier bullets, others may like lighter bullets or any bullet, each gun is unique in what it likes. That is what makes this sport so much fun and gives us all a good excuse to go shooting more.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Lots of people claim 1-1.5 inch groups at 100 yards. There are indeed people that can do it and do it often.

The first thing I would ask you is, are you swabbing the bore free of fowling between shots? I learned today that a simple swabbing made almost a 1 inch difference at 50 yards. What would have that translated to out at 100 yards? Swab between shots.

Next, have you tried any other kind of projectile other then the 240 gr XTP? Perhaps the rifle just does not like them.

So I would get some other kind of projectiles, like 250 gr Shockwaves, or even some powerbelts. I would swab between shots, and see if that does not make a difference. I am not going to promise you 2" groups. There are some rifles that simply will not shoot that kind of group. But with a scope, a 5" group is not acceptable IMO.

As for your trigger? What really is the matter with it?

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

could be like cayugad said, may not like XTP's. But im not exactly sure about that. I'd give some Great plains conicals a try, 385 grains or TC maxi hunters. Just because they shoot great for me, doesnt mean they will for you but its worth a shot. Or it could be flinching. Maybe have a couple friends come over and all of you guys shoot it and see what happens.

What kind of primer you using? If it has a stiff trigger than its more than likely that causing your groups to open up a bit. Give CVA a call and they'll adjust it down for you. 3.5lbs is the max that they will allow. Safety reasons.

Just have to fix one thing at a time, play with new powder charges until you find what it likes.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Sthrnhogbuster


Where do you live that 5-6 " group might work somewhere a normal shot is 50 to 60 yards. But the thing is are you happy with it, must not be if you are looking to adjust the trigger to tighten your groups.

I have not been shooting mzleloders long but I have been shooting CenterF for years.I posted some pics here.
copper fouling?...........................Oh wait I have a brass range rod.
sabotloader posted a targethis is a good example of shooting my pic the one at 100 yrds peep sight, is a 3 1/2" to 4"and it needs work I know I can do better with a different combo bullet powder measure or powder. I just need to dial it in. Bdeather has shoot some tiny groups with his white lightning If he would ever decide he wants to see how a computer works and learn to load pics they are tight little groups he is shooting.

I am with FG on this one I would look to someone else for advice if it were me.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Cayugad



When you swab betwix shoots are you using a wet cleaner patch and a dry one or two dry with the wet.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

I swab between every shot with a solution of 50% alcohol and 50% windex, wet patch and then 2 dry patches, I have been vigilant with cleaning between shots, learned that here couple of months ago when I first got the rifle. I have tried powerbelts but I think I need to play with this thing some more. I like the XTP's cause their 30 for 9.99. I think I'll go get some heavier Powerbelts and try those next. More shooting!!!

Thanks guys!

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

And there in a nut shell is why I stay out of local sporting goods stores as much as possible. Some people claim to hate the know nothing pimple faced kid in the sporting goods section at Wal-Mart but I'd waaay rather deal with him than the opinionated, dishonest, smarmy, rude, pseudointellectuals that infest virtually every sporting goods store in America. About all I buy from them is powder. I wouldn't trust the guy behind the counter at most sporting goods stores to tell me the correct time if lying about it would make his day easier or put some coin in his pocket. Sad but true. And if you like print out a copy of the photo below. It's a 100 yard three shot group from my T/C Omega with 120 grains of Pyrodex and a 240 gr Hornady XTP Mag sabot. I guess since they say such groups are impossible from a muzzleloader then this must be an optical illusion.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

With some muzzleloaders it is easy to get very good groups without trying too hard and some you have to work with them a lot.Like Cayugad said if you are not swabbing between shots I would give that a try first.I am from the old school you might say and I take a patch lick it on one side run it down the barrel in short jabs turn it over and push it down the barrel and back out.The only powder that I have used and didn't swab between shots was with clean shot years ago and got some pretty impressive groups.Well after reading your last post I see you do swab and have tried power belts that was going to be my next suggestion since it was a cva.When you try the heavier pB you may find they work better.I have set up some cva rifles for some fellows at the range and found most of the time they liked the 295 gr pB.Tried some 245 gr in an encore and it didn't like them at all either,set up a remington useing the 245 gr for one fellow and it loved the 245's.
Would suggest trying the 200 and 250 gr sst's,have been useing them since they came out and they work great.
I would check the trigger on a trigger scale before sending it back,might save you the shipping charges to find out that it is already set as low as they will go.I don't know anything about the trigger in the model you have but maybe they are adjustable and someone on here knows how to do it.
Hope you get it worked out.
First target at 100 yds second target 300yds with a muzzleloader.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Nice group, Todd!

Those guys at your gun shop are just plainignorant of the capabilities of black-powder arms!! They are PLUMB WRONG!!

A good slow-twist, large caliber round-ball rifle with a good quality barrel is quite capable of 1" or smaller groups at 100 yards, from the bench, ON A CALM DAY! Windreally plays havoc with round balls, and most other muzzleloader projectiles as well, although there are now some bullets that are used with sabots that have pretty good ballistic coefficients.

To get good accuracy from a ML, of course, you have to be very consistent at loading it, and this may include the need to wipe the bore between shots. In addition, you have to be using the best bullet with your rifle, and often finding the best bullet requires a lot of shooting of what's available in the right caliber. In addition, you may have to test various powders to get the right one! For example,my .50 with a 1/72" twist will shoot 1" groups on a calm day with .500 round balls, a .010 patch, and 90 grains of DuPont FFg (yes,I still have some!!), and Remington #11 caps. But if I load it with 90 grains of FFFg, the group size more than doubles! It also shoots a lot worse if I use .490" or .495" balls instead of ones a full .500" around!


I believe your rifle could be made to shoot much smaller groups than what you are now getting.

For your "gunshop experts", here'sa .45 and .50 cal. 3-shot, 100 yard group I shot with two round-ball rifles using Maxiballs in both guns..45 cal. 250-grain and .50 cal. 370-grain bullets.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Well, I think all ya'll are a bunch of liars!! ;):D:D

Ya know this is why I came here, honestly I could tell these guys didn't know much about black powder as when they were handling my rifle they were comenting like " well looks like you went with the high end stuff" I had to correct them and tell them it really is the lower end as fas as ML's are concerned and that I bought it to make sure I would enjoy the hobby then go out and buy a 6-700 dollar rifle. I already call it "Todds rifle" as it will be the gun my buddy Todd uses when he comes to visit and we go pig hunting because I will have purchashed a Triumphor maybe even an Encore by then. I think I need to shoot a lot more, start back down at 90 grains and work up in 5 grain incriments and go buy 2 or 3 more different styles of bullets.

I might need some letters from ya'll confirming to my wife that spending more money and time on the range is justified and very necessary.;)

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

yes, I use the 50/50 alcohol and windshield wiper mix and run a "damp" patch up and down turn it over and swab with the other side, then usually two dry patches. Sometimes it takes three patches. I feel the dry patches. If they are damp, I keep swabbing until they are not.

Then I save the dry patches for the future damp swab patches.

My little trick to get a damp patch is paint half of it with the cleaner. Then fold it in half, squeeze it together to work that fluid through the whole patch and then you have a damp patch instead of a wet one..

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

My Staghorn is an old CVA that cost me $89.00. If you load it with between 90-100 grains of Pyrodex or Goex, it will really shoot most anything well. Perhaps your rifle like a heavier projectile. Try some 300 grain stuff as well. Also I think you're on the right track dropping down to 90 grains, even 80 and working different projectiles from there.

One way to tell if a projectile might work is shoot it at 25 and 50 yards before you go back to 100 yards. If they shoot tight groups at those two distances, they should shoot well at 100 although I have a couple boxes of Speer Gold dots. They shoot really good out to 70 yards. After that the groups gets real bad for some reason. I just figured they were not long range projectiles or they were loosing power or something. Still have not figured them out.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

With a scope, I can shoot 1.5 in groups at 100 off of a rest with my CVABuckhorn. This is with powerbelts, have you tried them?

Theyseem to shoot better out of CVAs - I think. They are pricey butmabye worth trying for hunting purposes. The heavier ones, 345 or 338 works well on deer.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Im sorry, I didnt read the second page, I didnt see you had tried powerbelts.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Yeah but I'll try them again, when I shot them before I wasn't being as meticulous for accuracyor paying attention to loads I was just trying to get to know the gun and having fun shooting.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

A couple things to remember about powerbelts. Not all rifles like them. Also some rifles like one weight of powerbelt much more then other weight of powerbelts. My Staghorn for instance likes 245 & 348 grain powerbelts. The 295 grain do not shoot as well as the others.

Also with powerbelts they claim there is no need to swab. I find better accuracy when I do swab. Powerbelts are a slip fit conical so they do not seem hard to load in many rifles.

Also be sure to pull the base off the powerbelt. You will see a small spike on the bottom of the conical. Put a drop of oil, bore butter, spit, anything on that spike and then replace the plastic button. This will help the powerbelt shed the button faster and give you better accuracy.

Another good projectile is called Saber Tooth. I have been shooting them with some excellent results. With any conical, sometimes pushing them too hard does not produce the best accuracy and bullet performance. Now granted, there are people that shoot them with 150 grains of powder and they have excellent results. I just think if you took a survey, you would find that more people get better luck with them with 100 grains of powder.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Herman! Excellent shooting! I am really impressed with that 300-yard target! I've never had the guts to try any ML at that distance, although I know there used to be some that shot that well, from what I've read in old Ned Robert's book......

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

I have a 200yd range and was busting burnt out Flood Lamps at 125yds with the Knight "Wolverine" converted to "Large Rifle Primers"and 240gr XTP's/ 90grs Pyrodex RS. Have been using same 15yrs for hunting. Now, the CVA "Apollo Eclipise" w/capswill only do it at about 90to 100yds.

Going to see what the Power Belts will do!:)

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

I know my Omega will group tighter, just not with me behind the trigger:D

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v445/HuntAway/?action=view&current=Zero50Cal2.bmp

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

While this group was shot at 75 yards, not 100, it shows that even a sidelock with a peep sight can shoot much better groups than what your getting.



This 3 shot group was shot at 75 yards off a bench from a Lyman GPH 50 using a peep sight. Load was 460 No Excuse bullet over 70gr of 777 3F. Measured .280 center to center. Orange dot is 2" diameter. I did swab between shots using a spit patch.

Good luck finding a load.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Wish Preacher was still around.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Thanks eldeguello,that 300 yd was with a savage ML,I haven't tried any other ML past 200yds but have gotten some pretty good groups at 200 with the encore and a knight 45 cal.
I did one time years ago make a long,long shot on an eleven point buck with a T/C senaca 45 cal that would make my savage look bad.It was more of an accident than skill,think the buck just wanted to die and just walked into the path of the bullet.
I did some horse trading back in the winter and came out with a knight 45 cal disc rifle,I need to start working on it pretty soon and see what it will do,I had one before got it to shooting some one hole groups and the first time I took it got a deer at 170 yds useing the 225 gr PB.The one I had before had a 1:20 twist but this one has a 1:30 twist.
Back in the 40's when I was a kid I saw some old fellows do some impressive shooting with their old flint locks.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

I COULD NEVER GET MY CVA Optima Pro TO SHOOT XTP HOWEVER AS WITH ALL MY CVA'S 250GR SHOCKWAVE SUPER GLIDES AND 110GR OF 777 AND I GET 1IN AT 100YRDS. I ALSO WOULD LIKE TO FIND A BULLET THAT IS NOT AS PRICEY BUT I AM NOT WILLING TO LOOSE MY ACCURACY.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Shockwave superglides, my first new bullet to try.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

If money is an issue, be sure to try the Sabertooth from Harvester @ $9/15 bullets.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

You should be very happy with 5-6 inch groups at 100 yards. Don't listen to all the crap you do hear on the net about 1 inch groups. That is absolute PERFECT shooting and is very unrealistic. Personally, I DO think that certain people on here lie outright about their groups. They have to boost their pride levels. That's human nature. I GUARANTEE that at least 80 percent ofshooters have lied about theirgroupsonocassionor do it on a regular basis.

I might not get respect on here but at least I have never lied. I for one have gotten some crap from certain someones for my 6 inch groups in the past. Just don't let it bother you. Some people are just arrogant and boastful. They have to boost their ownconfidence by putting themselves above others levels.

Very few shooters can shoot 1 inch groups and very few do. Most MLs are not capable of it unless they are completely tuned and are in a solid bench rest. Not even to mention the variables. A gust of wind could throw the bullet off an inch at 100 yards.

Just keep working at your shooting and ignore anyone saying you should shoot better. It's up to you to decide how well you should shoot. 6 inch groups are ADEQUATE for hunting. That's undeniable. A deer's vitals are 8 inches for God sakes.

By the way, I don't doubt that people can shoot that well. I'm just saying that MOST don't and think they should. The only thing trying to shoot 1 inch groups did for me was bring my spirits down. Shoot for 6 inch groups and you'll never be disappointed.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

If you try to shoot 6" groups and you know you can do better, why bring your spirits down and settle for less?

He'll see a difference once he gets his trigger adjusted. A tight pull will always be a hard thing to deal with, and pull your shots open. i havean old remington .22 with one of those triggers.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Yep, the trigger should help. It very well could help but you never know.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

outdoorslover, if I had a muzzleloader that wouldn't do better than a 6" group at 100 yards -it would not be mine long.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

UC

Now you are making me feel bad, with my eyesI am looking for a 4" group @ a 100 with open sights and conicals... sabots maybe a little better...

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

Sabotloader, you get a break, we all know your eye sight is failing you with old age... Among other things.... ..

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

FG

HAY! watch it boy.... you young whipper snapper. There are still a lot of things Iken do...

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

I would highly doubt if it's always the gun that's the problem. The shooter is not perfect. MOST, not all, but most guns can always shoot excellent. It's almost always a shooters imperfections. Nobody can control all flinching, shaking, etc.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

If I had a muzzle loader or reg rifle and 6" was the best it would do it would be staying at home when I went to the woods.Depends on what you want to put into a muzzle loader or even a reg rifle as to what you get out of it.
I for one don't think any of these fellows are lying about their groups,for one reason I have shot a bunch of them and have seen what some of them can do.
Last year I helped a fellow set up his rem muzzie finally after a lot of shooting and several different powders and bullets I wittnessed him shooting a 3-shot one hole group.
Year before I helped 8 fellows set up their new savage muzzleloaders,before we got through,7 of the 8 shot a 3-shot one hole group.Watched one fellow put 7 in a row in one hole.So I know for fact that these fellows weren't lying about their groups.
A few days before muzzleloader season a young fellow came to the range said he wanted to try his muzzie before he went hunting,at 50 yds he was spraying bullets every where,He finally got a couple about 8 in from the bullseye,and said that was good enough.My shooting buddie told him to hold up and volunteered my help.before he left he shot a group about 3 in at 100 yds.
What I am trying to say is I hope there aren't many that settle for 6" groups when I think you can do a lot better with a little know how and enough practice.
I am getting ready to go to the range today soon as it gets daylight,won't be muzzleloaders today mostly varmit rifles.Plenty of all day fun too.

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

I diagree. Even a Model 94 .30/30 will generally shoot better that that. BUT, if you are talking about the shooter rather than the gun, then you have a point, IF we are talking about offhand shooting. Then anything inside of 12" @ 100 yards,shot offhand, is a good shot!

But let's not confuse matters here. How a shooter performs, and how a gun performs, are apples and oranges! I always remove as much of the HUMAN ERROR as I can when testing guns & loads!

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

I am with you on this UC. 3" groups arethe norm for most people with an occasion flyer or jerk or whatever, but when you get your rifle zeroed in I would say 3" is what your shooting for. 2" is excellent, the 1 inch stuff shown here is only at 50 yards for me or two shots groups at 100.

6" groups need some adjustment of load, bullet or rest. If your doing it all the time, I think you need some form of good rest. If your flinching all the time, get a Caudwell Lead Slead and then get your confidence build up. Nothing is more discouraging to have your rifle not grouping and you shoulder sore after shooting 20 or 30 shots.Get windage at 25 yards, and get it grouping there. Then move back to 50 and get it grouping at 50 2" high for most bullets. Then move back to 100 and shot your 3 shot groups.Much easier to adjust at 25 and 50 yards and if you can't group close, your not going to group at 100. Chap Gleason

RE: 100 yard accuracy
 

gleason.chapman

Ok - UC and Chap... when you are talking about a 3" group @ 100 are you talking with open sights or a scope and with a ML. I can get 1.5/2" groups @100with about any inline and scope combination that I shoot. That is not a problem at all, but they all have scopes. Now on the other hand when I move to a sidelock with open sights, I wish I could say that I could consistently get that same at 100, but the truth is they do expand. I can, and I would like to say "easily" maintain a 4" group with several shots, but it really is not that easy it takes a lot of concentration for me.

I have always considered myself a decent shot, actually pretty lucky shot, but I could not honestly tell anyone with open sights off a portable bench and bags I could consistently get 3" groups, with a volume powder hunting load (not weighed)in the barrel. Now if I loaded down just for targets and the wind gods would stop all wind when I was shooting - then maybe...

There are just so many different forces acting upon a bullet that I really can not control @ 100 I feel really comfortable with a 4" group @ 100 with open sights on a ML. Gees even just how you breath or don't breath can make a difference, but the biggest factor still remains inconsistentx-winds and drafts especially on the slower conicals.

I guess I just ain't that good after all...

Shudup Cdad...