Pglasgow

In spite of the many reports of good performance with the 295 PB, there seems to be a myth circulating that they just can not penetrate. Even, in spite of reports of people like srwshooter where exits occur even when coupled with scapula entrance wounds. Sometimes it helps just to contextualize the subject with something else, for example, another projectile one has confidence in.

For this comparison I have chosen a .530 PRB propelled with 90 grains 2f Goex. The 295 PB load is propelled with 60 grains RS. There ballistics are below.

At the muzzle, the PRB is superior in energy, but at 40 yards the two projectiles have equivalent energy. Beyond 40, the 295 PB exceeds the PRB in impact energy. Now at 40 yards, the first thing one notices is that the velocity of the PRB exceeds the 295 PB. Given the velocity of impact, the hollowpoint of the Powerbelt aids expansion. Having shot the 295 PB's into compacted sand at velocities of 1250 fps, I found them to expand to around 3/4" (just under 3/4 in places and around 13/16 in others).

Lets just say that at 40 yards and a velocity of 1173 fps the 295 PB expands to 3/4". The expanded bullet has a sectional density of around .095. This is pretty poor sectional density, but is it enough to penetrate?

How about the PRB? I don't know how much it may expand, i just know it does. Lets say it expands to 2/3 of an inch. Given the greater impact velocity, I would suspect it to expand more than that but if it only expands to 2/3" its sectional density declines to .09. Basically the sectional densities would be nearly identical with the powerbelt having only a slight edge.

When one thinks about it. The expanded 295 powerbelt is kind of like .575 roundbal expanded to 3/4 inch.

The energies are the same at 40 yards but there is 15% more momentum in the 295 powerbelt. So the powerbelt should penetrateas well as the .530 PRB, perhaps better. The question then becomes, can a .530 PRB penetrate? I think it can. I think at 40 yards it can enter between the neck and shoulder, pass through the vitals, exit the bottom of the deer and then break its hind leg. I also think the at 40 yards, a 295 PB propelled by 60 grains RS can do the same thing.

frontier gander

I already know how the 295 powerbelt does and its a great bullet for deer. Been using them in our sidelocks and inline " only have one" since 2003 and all deer have dropped. Even with 150 grains loose RS and te 295 powerbelt i got a total pass through with a double lung shot at 148 yards. Even the 245 powerbelt with the same charge was able to get a total pass through. If my 385 grain great plains bullet cant pass through both shoulders on a deer, theres no way a 338 or 348 grain powerbelt will. But with all the deer we've shot with powerbelts, my brother and dad refuse to use any other bullet in their mlers.

Heres the 385 grain great plains i pulled from my deers shoulder, one i pulled from a tree the other day and a 295 aerotip powerbelt i pulled from a log.
Bullets perform alot differently on an actual animal VS log/ box of sand/ wet news paper.
I dont really know why we keep getting onto this topic honestly, all of us that actually use them for hunting and bring home deer know how they perform and how to use them correctly. They are after all one of the best selling conicals out there, i think if they were that bad, they would have gone under years ago.

gleason.chapman

Phil,
I am getting out of my league here, but I believethis article:
http://www.snipersparadise.com/tsmag/July03/july03.htm

speaks to your theory/calculations and in particular this statement:

The long time theory has held that all else being equal, a bullet with higher SD (more weight per diameter) will penetrate deeper. Thus, a 180 grain .308 bullet with a sectional density of .271 should penetrate deeper than a 165 grain .308 bullet with a sectional density of .248. IF all else is really equal, the theory works out pretty well.

So the PB with more weight per diameter will penetrate deeper, all other things being equal.

He also says in this in the article:

A useful rule of thumb is to select bullets having a reputation for finishing their work with a profile roughly as long or longer than the bullets frontal diameter. In contrast, bullets that end up resembling a "pancake" are to be shunned.

This is what I think is going on with the PB, they are "pancakes" usually 1 or 2 inches below the skin (I read that somewhere). Therefore their frontal area is too large. I can't prove any of this, just my theories as to why their terminal performance is not as good on bone hits as with rib hits. Sorry I started a PB war again.
Chap Gleason Va

Pglasgow

I know you can't prove it. Every roundball which strikes at a velocity exceeding 1300 fps becomes a pancake. And yet, they go all the way through anyway. Sometimes, they go all the way through and break a leg, or even other times, they go all the way through and kill another deer by severing the spine.

Now this isn't theory, this is the real world, real experiences of cayugad which I have journaled.

ahankster

The problem really has nothing to do with energy, velocity or theoretical penetration potential of the PBs. You have what you have, just have to stay within it's capabilities.

The problem is that people overcharge these bullets and the projectiles either blow up on impact or shed massive amounts of bullet mass as it travels through the deer. I took one out of a doe a fella took here in the last week of the season. The deer was around 60 yards, broadside. Hit with a 295 grain PB pushed by 100 grains of 777. Bullet went in between two ribs and out between two ribs and the majority of the bullet was just under the skin on the other side. What was left was a nice mushroom shape, but weiged less than 100 grains. Deer was difficult to find as it left little blood trail. Aside from not liking to have to pick lead chunks out of meat, I personally like a hole in and a hole out whenever possible.

On a 295 grain PB, 70 to 90 grains of 777 will generall renderbetter results. Push them with more than 100 grains and you end up with very poor performance in many instances. I don't have the data to back this up, but I think you may actually get better penetration with the lower powered load as the bullet doesn't shed massive amounts of energy on impact and the bullet carries the energy all the way through. Try 150 grains and the exploding bullet trick is almost a guarantee.
Hank

gleason.chapman

I have not seen that shoot thruperformance on PRBand I used them 2 years. In fact Randy Wakeman here:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/powerbelt_bullets.htm

says this about PRB:

The facts speak for themselves. From any ballistic performance standpoint, Powerbelts make Hornady XTPs and Barnes MZ-Expanders in MMP sabots look like God's gift to muzzleloading. The day of the deer-crippling round ball has come and gone. Now, with the advent of Triple 7 and other high-energy propellants, the dismal trajectories of conicals means that their days as popular hunting projectiles are probably numbered.

So Randy says the PRB is a deer-crippling bullet, which is what my experience is also. Chap

lemoyne

That bit about round balls being a crippler is not true. I have taken over 40 deer with a 535 PRB and as a rule they went down faster than sabot loads or even some HP rifles. A large part of the time when deer is crippled it is from being shoot in the wrong place that is ALWAYS the hunters fault. The only deer shot with a PRB that we lost fell on somebode elses property right in front of them and they tagged it and the Game Warden said thats their deer so we could not do anything about it. Lee

Pglasgow

Hank,

I wouldn't use 70 to 90 grains of 777 with a 295 PB, personally. IMO its more than ideal. 60 grains of RS would do just as good a job and result in better weight retention, deeper penetration, and far less wasted energy at the entrance point.

Chap,

Frankly, I don't care what Randy has to say about it. I don't trust him. As to whether your experience is proof that roundballs(or PBs for that matter)are a crippling bullet, thats open for debate, but I would prefer not go into that debate.

Instead I would like to see if you can be a reasonable person. And understand that some one like me who studies and scouts my quarry and gives myself the reliable opportunity to place a capable bullet, at an appropriate place on the animal, at an appropriate range that I have practiced extensively, having 100 % success save one time (which wasn't the fault of the roundball I used) can have an opinion which differs from yours.

Also a person who spends 3 hours to move 200 yards in the woods still hunting in Wisconsin, who places a .54 roundball at 45 yards and witnesses total penetration and exit, ultimately breaking its hind leg, might take issue that a roundball is a crippling projectile.

What I know of your experience is that you and your buddies go out. Two take stands and wait for the other two to booger deer out of their beds while the "standers" wait for deer to run by so that pot shots can be taken at them. You went as far as to say this is the "norm". When you anus shoot one and "miss" two others, you call it great day for gold dots and sing their praises. I am sorry, but I don't consider your experience a reliable as a test of either the performance of roundball, powerbelts, or the gold dot for that matter.

To what ever extent this comes off as being personal, it isn't. I just wholeheartedly disagree with your assessments and conclusions. I am merely disagreeing and stating why I disagree. I honestly can have no faith in your statements of performance on deer you never recovered when you hunt the way you do. I am just waiting for you to say, "Maybe I can't be sure of all of my shots and maybe the choice of projectile would have made no difference" When you say that, then I think you have something very important to contribute to the fawns of this forum.

cayugad

As I have stated, I have no hunting experience with Powerbelts. Not that I have not given them an opportunity, its just the deer refuse to cooperate. Not my fault.. I would really like the opportunity to try them on a deer or hog just to see what happens.

All too often though,I have heard people dismiss roundball as a goodhunting projectile. I personally have never had any doubt of their lethal ability. I've hunted with roundball right from the begining of my muzzleloader experience. When I started hunting with .54 & an ocassional .58 caliber roundball, someone forgot to tell me that I would have trouble killing deer, and the deer were not informed as well. For years,I shot deer after deer with a simple roundball and usually a 80-90 grain charge of Pyrodex RS or Goex 2f. Mostly because that was all there was around. I have yet to have a problem knocking a deer down with a roundball. I think the furthest one managed to run offwas 50 yards or so. And I have never lost a deer with a roundball placed shot.

I will be the first to admit, one should limit the range of a roundball. I would never shoot at anything over 125 yards unless there was a lot of "yes" marks in the everything is right catagory for the shot. The longest roundball shot I have had was about80yards dropping the deer in its tracks. Then you can add another 15 feet onto that where the second deer was struck by the same roundball and knocked that one down as well.

Getting back to the Powerbelts, we should start a thread for anyone that has shot anything with a powerbelt. When they tell of their experience, list Powerbelt type. rifle used, twist of rifle, powder charge, distance to animal, kind of animal, where the powerbelt hit, damage done, pass through or not, distance the animal traveled after shot, blood trail if any, recovered or not, and final their personal opinion of the performance of the projectile. Then I think a person could paint a picture of the true powerbelt.

Besides, it would make a good conversation and some interesting hunting stories...

Pglasgow

cayugad,

Last year I spent considerable amount of time researching the results of powerbelts. Knowing the charge and range of impact, I was able to calculate impact velocities. There was alot of data on the 295 PB because it is the one most often used. Here is what I discovered. The 295 PB needs an impact velocity below 1300 fps to get pass through penetration. And a PB impacting at 1200 fps is more likely to pass through (in fact none with impact velocity below 1200 fps failed to pass through)than one at 1300 fps. Charges for all lead HOLLOWPOINT should be chosen so that the expected impact velocities will be below 1300 fps, though below 1200 fps is ideal.

For expected impact velocities above 1300 fps, chose a solid point or a jacketed hollowpoint. Very simple. I might add that I have freely shared the results of this analysis with Chap.

If you recall, I didn't have a favorable opinion of powerbelts last year in January. But the truth will change one'smind. The same is true of roundball. I had only hunted once with roundball and had a bad experience which was the result of poor placement. I was 15 years old at the time. The opinions of others influenced me such that I had never hunted with them since. Thanks to your shared experiences and those of many other members of this forum, I changed my opinion of roundballs and now look forward to hunting with themin with my next rifle, a .58 cal flinter!