On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

In spite of the many reports of good performance with the 295 PB, there seems to be a myth circulating that they just can not penetrate. Even, in spite of reports of people like srwshooter where exits occur even when coupled with scapula entrance wounds. Sometimes it helps just to contextualize the subject with something else, for example, another projectile one has confidence in.

For this comparison I have chosen a .530 PRB propelled with 90 grains 2f Goex. The 295 PB load is propelled with 60 grains RS. There ballistics are below.

At the muzzle, the PRB is superior in energy, but at 40 yards the two projectiles have equivalent energy. Beyond 40, the 295 PB exceeds the PRB in impact energy. Now at 40 yards, the first thing one notices is that the velocity of the PRB exceeds the 295 PB. Given the velocity of impact, the hollowpoint of the Powerbelt aids expansion. Having shot the 295 PB's into compacted sand at velocities of 1250 fps, I found them to expand to around 3/4" (just under 3/4 in places and around 13/16 in others).

Lets just say that at 40 yards and a velocity of 1173 fps the 295 PB expands to 3/4". The expanded bullet has a sectional density of around .095. This is pretty poor sectional density, but is it enough to penetrate?

How about the PRB? I don't know how much it may expand, i just know it does. Lets say it expands to 2/3 of an inch. Given the greater impact velocity, I would suspect it to expand more than that but if it only expands to 2/3" its sectional density declines to .09. Basically the sectional densities would be nearly identical with the powerbelt having only a slight edge.

When one thinks about it. The expanded 295 powerbelt is kind of like .575 roundbal expanded to 3/4 inch.

The energies are the same at 40 yards but there is 15% more momentum in the 295 powerbelt. So the powerbelt should penetrateas well as the .530 PRB, perhaps better. The question then becomes, can a .530 PRB penetrate? I think it can. I think at 40 yards it can enter between the neck and shoulder, pass through the vitals, exit the bottom of the deer and then break its hind leg. I also think the at 40 yards, a 295 PB propelled by 60 grains RS can do the same thing.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

I already know how the 295 powerbelt does and its a great bullet for deer. Been using them in our sidelocks and inline " only have one" since 2003 and all deer have dropped. Even with 150 grains loose RS and te 295 powerbelt i got a total pass through with a double lung shot at 148 yards. Even the 245 powerbelt with the same charge was able to get a total pass through. If my 385 grain great plains bullet cant pass through both shoulders on a deer, theres no way a 338 or 348 grain powerbelt will. But with all the deer we've shot with powerbelts, my brother and dad refuse to use any other bullet in their mlers.

Heres the 385 grain great plains i pulled from my deers shoulder, one i pulled from a tree the other day and a 295 aerotip powerbelt i pulled from a log.
Bullets perform alot differently on an actual animal VS log/ box of sand/ wet news paper.
I dont really know why we keep getting onto this topic honestly, all of us that actually use them for hunting and bring home deer know how they perform and how to use them correctly. They are after all one of the best selling conicals out there, i think if they were that bad, they would have gone under years ago.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Phil,
I am getting out of my league here, but I believethis article:
http://www.snipersparadise.com/tsmag/July03/july03.htm

speaks to your theory/calculations and in particular this statement:

The long time theory has held that all else being equal, a bullet with higher SD (more weight per diameter) will penetrate deeper. Thus, a 180 grain .308 bullet with a sectional density of .271 should penetrate deeper than a 165 grain .308 bullet with a sectional density of .248. IF all else is really equal, the theory works out pretty well.

So the PB with more weight per diameter will penetrate deeper, all other things being equal.

He also says in this in the article:

A useful rule of thumb is to select bullets having a reputation for finishing their work with a profile roughly as long or longer than the bullets frontal diameter. In contrast, bullets that end up resembling a "pancake" are to be shunned.

This is what I think is going on with the PB, they are "pancakes" usually 1 or 2 inches below the skin (I read that somewhere). Therefore their frontal area is too large. I can't prove any of this, just my theories as to why their terminal performance is not as good on bone hits as with rib hits. Sorry I started a PB war again.
Chap Gleason Va

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

I know you can't prove it. Every roundball which strikes at a velocity exceeding 1300 fps becomes a pancake. And yet, they go all the way through anyway. Sometimes, they go all the way through and break a leg, or even other times, they go all the way through and kill another deer by severing the spine.

Now this isn't theory, this is the real world, real experiences of cayugad which I have journaled.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

The problem really has nothing to do with energy, velocity or theoretical penetration potential of the PBs. You have what you have, just have to stay within it's capabilities.

The problem is that people overcharge these bullets and the projectiles either blow up on impact or shed massive amounts of bullet mass as it travels through the deer. I took one out of a doe a fella took here in the last week of the season. The deer was around 60 yards, broadside. Hit with a 295 grain PB pushed by 100 grains of 777. Bullet went in between two ribs and out between two ribs and the majority of the bullet was just under the skin on the other side. What was left was a nice mushroom shape, but weiged less than 100 grains. Deer was difficult to find as it left little blood trail. Aside from not liking to have to pick lead chunks out of meat, I personally like a hole in and a hole out whenever possible.

On a 295 grain PB, 70 to 90 grains of 777 will generall renderbetter results. Push them with more than 100 grains and you end up with very poor performance in many instances. I don't have the data to back this up, but I think you may actually get better penetration with the lower powered load as the bullet doesn't shed massive amounts of energy on impact and the bullet carries the energy all the way through. Try 150 grains and the exploding bullet trick is almost a guarantee.
Hank

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

I have not seen that shoot thruperformance on PRBand I used them 2 years. In fact Randy Wakeman here:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/powerbelt_bullets.htm

says this about PRB:

The facts speak for themselves. From any ballistic performance standpoint, Powerbelts make Hornady XTPs and Barnes MZ-Expanders in MMP sabots look like God's gift to muzzleloading. The day of the deer-crippling round ball has come and gone. Now, with the advent of Triple 7 and other high-energy propellants, the dismal trajectories of conicals means that their days as popular hunting projectiles are probably numbered.

So Randy says the PRB is a deer-crippling bullet, which is what my experience is also. Chap

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

That bit about round balls being a crippler is not true. I have taken over 40 deer with a 535 PRB and as a rule they went down faster than sabot loads or even some HP rifles. A large part of the time when deer is crippled it is from being shoot in the wrong place that is ALWAYS the hunters fault. The only deer shot with a PRB that we lost fell on somebode elses property right in front of them and they tagged it and the Game Warden said thats their deer so we could not do anything about it. Lee

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Hank,

I wouldn't use 70 to 90 grains of 777 with a 295 PB, personally. IMO its more than ideal. 60 grains of RS would do just as good a job and result in better weight retention, deeper penetration, and far less wasted energy at the entrance point.

Chap,

Frankly, I don't care what Randy has to say about it. I don't trust him. As to whether your experience is proof that roundballs(or PBs for that matter)are a crippling bullet, thats open for debate, but I would prefer not go into that debate.

Instead I would like to see if you can be a reasonable person. And understand that some one like me who studies and scouts my quarry and gives myself the reliable opportunity to place a capable bullet, at an appropriate place on the animal, at an appropriate range that I have practiced extensively, having 100 % success save one time (which wasn't the fault of the roundball I used) can have an opinion which differs from yours.

Also a person who spends 3 hours to move 200 yards in the woods still hunting in Wisconsin, who places a .54 roundball at 45 yards and witnesses total penetration and exit, ultimately breaking its hind leg, might take issue that a roundball is a crippling projectile.

What I know of your experience is that you and your buddies go out. Two take stands and wait for the other two to booger deer out of their beds while the "standers" wait for deer to run by so that pot shots can be taken at them. You went as far as to say this is the "norm". When you anus shoot one and "miss" two others, you call it great day for gold dots and sing their praises. I am sorry, but I don't consider your experience a reliable as a test of either the performance of roundball, powerbelts, or the gold dot for that matter.

To what ever extent this comes off as being personal, it isn't. I just wholeheartedly disagree with your assessments and conclusions. I am merely disagreeing and stating why I disagree. I honestly can have no faith in your statements of performance on deer you never recovered when you hunt the way you do. I am just waiting for you to say, "Maybe I can't be sure of all of my shots and maybe the choice of projectile would have made no difference" When you say that, then I think you have something very important to contribute to the fawns of this forum.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

As I have stated, I have no hunting experience with Powerbelts. Not that I have not given them an opportunity, its just the deer refuse to cooperate. Not my fault.. :D I would really like the opportunity to try them on a deer or hog just to see what happens.

All too often though,I have heard people dismiss roundball as a goodhunting projectile. I personally have never had any doubt of their lethal ability. I've hunted with roundball right from the begining of my muzzleloader experience. When I started hunting with .54 & an ocassional .58 caliber roundball, someone forgot to tell me that I would have trouble killing deer, and the deer were not informed as well. For years,I shot deer after deer with a simple roundball and usually a 80-90 grain charge of Pyrodex RS or Goex 2f. Mostly because that was all there was around. I have yet to have a problem knocking a deer down with a roundball. I think the furthest one managed to run offwas 50 yards or so. And I have never lost a deer with a roundball placed shot.

I will be the first to admit, one should limit the range of a roundball. I would never shoot at anything over 125 yards unless there was a lot of "yes" marks in the everything is right catagory for the shot. The longest roundball shot I have had was about80yards dropping the deer in its tracks. Then you can add another 15 feet onto that where the second deer was struck by the same roundball and knocked that one down as well.

Getting back to the Powerbelts, we should start a thread for anyone that has shot anything with a powerbelt. When they tell of their experience, list Powerbelt type. rifle used, twist of rifle, powder charge, distance to animal, kind of animal, where the powerbelt hit, damage done, pass through or not, distance the animal traveled after shot, blood trail if any, recovered or not, and final their personal opinion of the performance of the projectile. Then I think a person could paint a picture of the true powerbelt.

Besides, it would make a good conversation and some interesting hunting stories... :D

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

cayugad,

Last year I spent considerable amount of time researching the results of powerbelts. Knowing the charge and range of impact, I was able to calculate impact velocities. There was alot of data on the 295 PB because it is the one most often used. Here is what I discovered. The 295 PB needs an impact velocity below 1300 fps to get pass through penetration. And a PB impacting at 1200 fps is more likely to pass through (in fact none with impact velocity below 1200 fps failed to pass through)than one at 1300 fps. Charges for all lead HOLLOWPOINT should be chosen so that the expected impact velocities will be below 1300 fps, though below 1200 fps is ideal.

For expected impact velocities above 1300 fps, chose a solid point or a jacketed hollowpoint. Very simple. I might add that I have freely shared the results of this analysis with Chap.

If you recall, I didn't have a favorable opinion of powerbelts last year in January. But the truth will change one'smind. The same is true of roundball. I had only hunted once with roundball and had a bad experience which was the result of poor placement. I was 15 years old at the time. The opinions of others influenced me such that I had never hunted with them since. Thanks to your shared experiences and those of many other members of this forum, I changed my opinion of roundballs and now look forward to hunting with themin with my next rifle, a .58 cal flinter!

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Agree with you. I think that is what is happening also, at least that happen to me and my brother. I think there are a lot of hunters that don't know this however. Chap Gleason

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

I think the 535g of lead had a lot to do with it. If I recall a regular PRB is 147g, so what are you shooting a .62? Chap Gleason

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Sorry but ive used 150 grains of powder with the 295 aero tip and got complete pass through and the deer only rolled 4 feet before coming to a stop. Ive shot the 245 hollow points with 120 grains and 150 grains loose RS. Shot placement i believe is whats important. And roundballs are VERY effective! Look at my avatar picture.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Humm... I don't recall you ever stating this. That is a good figure to remember concerning this bullet. Thanks Chap

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

I think the 535g of lead had a lot to do with it. If I recall a regular PRB is 147g, so what are you shooting a .62? Chap Gleason
[/quote]


535 PRB = .535 diameter. Which is .54cal i think? I only shoot .50's so im a little lost after that.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

535 PRB = .535 diameter. Which is .54cal i think? I only shoot .50's so im a little lost after that.
[/quote]

I think you're right. A .54 caliber will normally shoot either a .530 grain at 224 grain or a .535 grain at approximately 230 grain. A .570 (.58 caliber)weighs 284 (as I remember) and the .62 caliber is 324 grain in weight.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Chap,

If you review your email and pm's, I think you will find where I explained the hollowpoint index in the spreadsheet. I am pretty sure I discussed velocities and pass through performance with 295 PB's

If you review our pm discussions you will also find my thoughts about wounding and penetration. Particularly that both are important aspects of terminal performance and that to get more of one, one must sacrifice the other. For example, if one desires a littlemore penetration he givesa little inwound size. If he wants a little larger wound, he gives up a little in penetration. The key is balance. One wants sufficient penetration to wound deeply in the game, but he also doesn't want to waste alot of retained energy in an exiting bullet.

As far the sniperparidise article, I see how very little his hard cast bullet expanded and i don't get very excited. I have shot hard cast bullets in the form maxisself casted with dental xray lead. They get great penetration passing right through, but the wound is small relative to a 385 GP just blasts them. I saw the 610 white bullet in the artical. Awesome wound pattern in the clay but the author diminuates it as less than desirable penetration. That bullet would go right through a bison's vitals, IMO, better thanthe nosler.

It's a matter of personal preference. I prefer a bullet that expands and creates a larger wound channel. So when I see the mushroomed 405 black belt, I'm thinking, "Oh yeah !!! Awesome!!! Big wound channel, lower exit energy", and when I see his poorly expanded hard cast bullet I am thinking, "Small wound channel, high exit energy".

I told you this before. Take a all lead projectile, (PB, GP conical, BS conical, or a patched round ball), for a given energy, at a velocity ideal for the projectile, and it will OUTPERFORM a jacketed bullet of equivalent impact energy. I am totally convinced of this.

Likewise, take an all lead projectile and cause it to impact at velocities greater than ideal for its design, and one could be dissipointed in the performance.

Frankly, I firmly believe anything I can stuff down my muzzleloaders can cleanly take game. I just need to know I can put it where it can damage its lungs and/or heart and I will get the results I am hoping for. A downed deer and full freezer :D.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

gleason.chapman, the .535 is the ball dia. for my 54 cal. hawken. While I have had most calibers the 54 is by far my favorite for both trajectory and knock down. Lee

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Phil,
How did you reach that conclusion? When you say OUTPERFORM, what do you mean terminal performance? Penetration? Expansion? I believe the best bullet is a pass thru (so there is an exit wound, large hole) with controlled expansion. Maybe it is as you say a matter of personal preference. I agree with you on this statement:

Likewise, take an all lead projectile and cause it to impact at velocities greater than ideal for its design, and one could be dissipointed in the performance.

Chap

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

"The facts speak for themselves. From any ballistic performance standpoint, Powerbelts make Hornady XTPs and Barnes MZ-Expanders in MMP sabots look like God's gift to muzzleloading. The day of the deer-crippling round ball has come and gone. Now, with the advent of Triple 7 and other high-energy propellants, the dismal trajectories of conicals means that their days as popular hunting projectiles are probably numbered. "

Tell that to states, such as Colorado, that only allow conicals. I would be extremely surprised if they were to make a change in that policies (conicals only) anytime soon or not so soon. I think "primative weapon" seasons were allowed to progress to a point, but doubt these states will go much further. And places like Idaho have gone the other way.

Therefore, we are left with finding a conical that shoots well and performs well. The more I learn, and I do learn something almost every day on places like this forum, the more I believe that Pglasgow has hit the nail on the head. Magnum charges are for modern projectiles, and bullets like powerbelts perform the best at lower velocities. Goes agains the grain for those that like to push the envelope (150 plus yards), but for me and my open sight gun, it does me just fine.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Chap,

I mean that it will dissipate a greater proportion of it's energy into wounding leading to better terminal performance, literally killing better and faster.

This is not to say that one can not use a jacketed bullet at greater impact energy and get better wounding. I really don't know. It is complex as greater energy for lighter jacketed bullets generally mean greater velocity and a larger proportion of energy dissipated near the surface at thePOI. From my own experience, full bore hollowpoint bullets of 385 grain weight are deer killing demons which knock the snot out of deer. Based the experience of others who I trust, patched roundballs are deer killing demons also. They both are, (as are saboted jacket bullets), capable of cleanly killing deer.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Pglasgow

I am not a PB user, do not intend to be ever again, once was enough but I will tell you the answer here...

I guarantee you a saboted copper jacketed bullets can and do kill deer and elk just fine.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Guys, I am relatively new here but truly don't understand all the debate. Chosen firearm, hunting preference, etc. makesMLs such and individual experience.

I think Pglasgow's chart (which was a big help to me) slmply put shows the powerbelt will performwith the right load. Check the testerone at the gate(Tim the Toolman Taylor syndrome) test at 70,80g of load and see what happens.

When I decided on getting my OptimaI obtained advise from a well respected local shooter to start with 245 powerbelt and 50g pf triple 7. I remember thinking thegun was rated at 150. Hejust shook his had and told me to start with the above load and it would not take much more than that along with a placed shot to get the job done.

Unfortunately, since I bought the gun I have only been out twice. 18" of snow and 2 ice storms..... its killing me.As soon as I can, I will be shooting the lighter load and see what happens.

I do enjoy this site and am learning a lot. Thanks to all.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Why is the weight 385g, why not 300g, which is what I believe it is for Jacket HP bullets? Why the greater weight to get the performance?
Chap

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

The debate is that I placed a new PB page up here:
http://www.the-gleasons.com/powerbelt_page.htm to warn rookies and old rookies about PB bullets fragmenting issues. Phil put up a thread about them penetrating as good as a PRB. I think they are inferior bullets for MLers, Phil thinks they have their place.I think that sums it up. I have learned:
1) if you shoot them at1300 fps and best around 1200 fps they go thru a deer. I thought they pancaked at all velocieies.
2) if you push them with150g of power theywill blow up.
3)I am trying to grapple with what is the right combination of expansion and penetration for Terminal Performance.
4) Wound Channel is important, too big a splash leads to too little energy to shoot thru the deer.

Amoung the questionsI have are:
1) expansion is important but how important is expansion vs shoot thru--Shockwaves tend to not expand that much and shoot thru, with about the same size hole as entrance hole. Is that goodor bad? I think it is bad, but I am not sure why.

2) Expansion is important but opening up1 inch into theanimal is too fast causing "splash" from displaced flesh too close to the surface. PBdo this pretty often. Is it because they are pushed too fast or design of thebullet to be basically a 2 pellet ML bullet max.

Chap Gleason

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Oh, ok diameter of the PRB in a .54. Thanks Chap

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Chap,

Besides Maxis and one roundball, the 385 GP is all I have ever shot at deer. That's it. So I can speak of the virtues of both the 385 GP and my home cast maxiballs. The 385's were noticeably more effective.

Sabotloader,

I don't recall ever excluding saboted jacketed bullets. Best I can tell from what I wrote, which is archived right in the quote of your post, saboted jacketed bullets are to be included in the list of projectiles which can cleanly kill deer.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

That's all I was trying to do oldrookie. Glad it helped and I hope you can get out and do some shooting soon.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

150 grainsof powder and a 245 or 295 grain powerbelt will NOT blow up with a lung shot. It may on a shoulder shot but i do not take those kind of shots and never will.

150 grains loose pyrodex rs- 295 aerotip powerbelt - 148 yard shot on mule deer doe - Entered cleanly and exited with a 1" clean hole. Slid 4 feet and was dead.

120 grains loose pyrodex rs- 245 hollow point powerbelt- 146 yard shot, neckshot, dead deer and entered right infront of the neck/chest , exited just infront of the shoulder area.

My brothers load:
90 grains RS, 295 aerotip, 100 yards, high spine shot that put it down temporarily put it down until she got her back inplace, stood up, #2 shot with the same load went through both lungs and exited, deer dropped dead in its tracks.

Dads deer:
90 grains rs, 295 aerotip, bullet hit the deer in the collar bone, exited in the lower chest/neck area, dead deer. Dang tasty one too!

I like lung shots, it puts them down a lot faster, bleeds them out and makes gutting a lot cleaner. Why take a chance putting a bullet through the shoulder when a lung shot is guaranteed to put it down a lot faster?

Powerbelts are capable of taking game with 150 grains of powder with the right shots.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Yes, I am familiar with the post above. I come from a bowhunters perspective. Making the assumption that one eats what they kill, why would you not want a complete pass through. The preference in bowhunting is a complete pass through. A pass through usually allows the game to bleed out with minimal damage to the meat.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Wow, where do I start? First, I think I remember those ~150 yard shots of yours. At least one of the two was offhand, correct? Open sights, right? So, were you aiming at the neck on that one shot? Was your brother shooting for the high spine? How many deer have you lost, or do you get lucky every time?

You say, "It may on a shoulder shot but i do not take those kind of shots and never will."

Do you understand where I am going with this? You really need to slow down and think about what you are saying. You don't take those kind of shots, but you will take ~150 yard shots off hand. What are the chances you will hit a deer in the shoulder with your PB? What about a gut shot?

Just think about it.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

Jon,

If you willconsider the ranges at which your bullets impacted it should be clear that they had slowed down considerably by the time they impacted. The impact velocities would have been in an acceptable range of impact velocity, though perhaps greater than ideal for the powerbelts design. At ten yards, the results that other complain of would be evident to you and you would get a sense of what they are complaining of.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

So far all the years hunting ive only had one chance to actually lay down and take my time. Everything with a muzzleloader ive taken has been one of those suprises like, Is that a deer? Oh shi!!!. Last year i had just enoughtime to look over at my dad, look back at the deer, whistle to get them to stop and fire. And no i was aiming for my ususal spot and the wind was bad down in the valley where the deer was, i was out of breath after spotting them and running to them " late evening". I dont take shots i dont feel comfortable with. Last year i gave up a 100 yard shot on a nice buck because i knew there was a camp over the little ridge and didnt want to chance it, Plus my range finder wouldnt get a reading on him in the shade and he looks atleast 130 yards out there. Kinda crappy when u recheck the range and find it was really 100 yards. I even put bi pod on my inline so i could start taking my time with shots.. Havnt used it once due to the animals not giving me the chance.

Brother had his 3" high at 100 and was shooting up hill. His shot again was through a small opening of brush and she was the only doe showing her vitals.

I refuse to take a shoulder shot due to it ruining a lot of meat and is not a humane shot.. I found out the hard way when i had to finish the doe off with my sidearm. Never had a gut shot but im sure one of those will come, as it will happen to every hunter out there. As for my shots being all off hand, Thats going to happen when you are in barren land with only sage brush. I practice alot shooting off my knee during the off season, i know how my rifle acts with certain loads i shoot and i am confident of my shooting abilities. To be honest with all of you, since i have done some work to my rifle and updated the sights, i wouldnt be affraid to take a 200 yard shot with this rifle now. Of course i would only do a shot that far if i was resting the rifle on some rocks or a tree. One thing a lot of hunters get is buck fever and end up with a poorly placed shot. Ive gotten over buck fever.. Unless its a big elk, then my knees start to knock.

And that unhumane shot i ended up with in the deers shoulder was with a huge great plains bullet. I walked up to her after the first shot hit below her spine, shot her from 20 yards direct in the shoulder and she was still alive and showed no signs of going under any time soon. After i gutted her i found that no organs had been hit, only her windpipe was shattered and she couldnt breathe. After seeing that i will never take a shoulder shot ever again. I'll take a lung shot thats kills within a few seconds than a shoulder shot that never seems to end its misery.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

It has been quite some time since I have purchased any PB's, but doesn't it say on the package of the 295 Lead Hollow points to use approximately 80-90 grains of 2f or RS, and no more? Think CVA was thinking of that when they put these things together, that a high impact velocity could cause malfunctions of the bullet? 80 grains should push these things at the 1400 fps range, which would in turn be about 1200 fps at 50 yards, well within the impact velocity range discussed. I agree, with all that is heard of these things failing, just might be people pushing them too fast with magnum charges, and short range shots that don't allow the velocity of the projectile to get below 1300 fps. I have no hunting experience with these bullets, only with T/C Maxi Balls, just an observation...

Later,

Marcial

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

WOW! Look what a .45 cal with225 PB and 2 50gr pellets and do.

Hogs with Smokepoles!

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

As an aside. My particular choice of 60 grains was only to saddle equivalent energies with the .54 PRBat 40 yards. .54 roundball is a proven killer of deer, which inspite of its relatively low sectional density, (or terminal sectional density if it matters to you), doesn't have any problem penetrating deer deeply or causing traumatic swiftly killing wounds. 60 grains merely equivicated the impact energies at 40 yards.

So yes, one can use more than 60 grains as far as I am concerned.

Even so, 60 grains is just fine out to 100 yards with the wind cooperating, a good rest, and a rifle which shoots them accurately with this charge. My sidekick shot them with 65 grains into sub 1.5 in. groups in windy conditions at 50 yards using open sights. How many times have people asked, "What would be a good load for my daughter, I need a good load with acceptable recoil for a 12 year old, a load good to 70 or 80 yards"?

Brand bashing and blaming a projectile forpoorly placed shots helps no one. All it does is move where people spend their money. It does so by fallaciously programming unreasonable fears into the minds of people who deserve better than to be disrespected like that.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

"150 grainsof powder and a 245 or 295 grain powerbelt will NOT blow up with a lung shot."

Sorry, this just isn't supported by the facts. You may have gotten lucky with one, but I have seen numerous shots that did not. The one I described earlier was a double lung shot. Absoloutly exploded the lungs. Deer went about 40 yards in some very thick cover and was difficult to find. Bullet, or the majority of it, was just under the skin on the opposite side.

I've seen lots of deer hit with PBs, lung shots, spine shots and shoulder shots. Around here, the end result has always been the same. A blowed up bullet. Sometimes fragments make it out the other side, but not really a bullet with most of it's mass. The main reason for this is that everyone watches on TV and reads about them and two things happen. First, they hear about "magnum" loads and assume more is better and second, their over zealos attitudes and mouth gets them into the same mode; more is better. End result is they stuff 100 or 150 grains down the muzzle, find that the bullet is very accurate with this combo and assume that the terminal perforance will be the same.

There are clubs in the south considering banning PBs because of this performance. I have heard of outfitters that refuse to allow clients to use them and we are reviewing them where we hunt.

I think the 1200 fps area is probably an excellent data point. Better is slow to a point, faster is bad at a point. Every bullet has an optimal terminal performance range. I don't care whether it is a Nosler Partition, Sierra Game King, Shockwave or Power Belt. Keep them in this range and it is unlikely that you will be dissapointed. Any bullet pushed to fast will blow up on impact and the PB is probably in the 1200 to 1300 fps range.

Hank

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

I'm so glad you said this, especially the last part about any bullet. I've been wanting to say it but decided to let some one else say it first. It is my personal opinion that a big exit wound is more important that a big entrance wound. The faster a bullet goes the more cratering and dissipation of its energy occurs at the surface. The faster it goes the more its energy dissipates at right angles to its motion. This kind of energy dissipation at the POI does nothing to wound the internal organs, only the energy which remains upon entrance to the vitals can wound and only that portion which doesn't exitin a passthrough.There is a function of diminishing returns by adding more powder and increasing the velocity. Other than increased range, I have to wonder how much actual benefit is achieved from using 100 grains in a 50 cal rifle.

I keep going back to my own experiences of 70-90 grains 3f BP and a 385 GP and extensive hunting with 7 rem mag. I really can not say that the 7 mag kills more swiftly. I can't say the deer move any less from impact. I can say it penetrates awesome, shoots flat and very accurately past 200 yards and makes hunting with it boring for me now.

I don't think that PB's blow up between 1200 and 1300 fps. From what I could gather the field experiences of others, they usually pass through in this range of velocities. Beyond 1300 fps on impact andone can expect over expansion, excessive weight loss (fragmentation), non-pass through performance.

I would like to be clear that I don't believe that every powerbelt is the same. The data I analyzed was with the 295. I am certain that a 223 PB can't stand as much impact velocity as a 295 and I am certain that a 405 PB can stand more impact velocity.

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

I am a relative newcomer to muzzleloading. Last November I shot my first deer with my Winchester Apex. I had sighted it in using two 50 grain triple seven pellets and a 295 powerbelt so that's what I used for my hunt. I believe that would be equivalent to about 85 grains of triple seven loose powder. I had practiced enough so I was confident in my shot placement. I shot a really nice sized doe broadside at about 75 yards. I waited a while, reloaded, and went to take a look. There was no blood trail near where I had shot her. I knew I had hit her just behind the shoulder so I went back to where she was hit and I could see her tracks. It was the tracks I followed to find her next to the river in some pretty heavy cover. Upon field dressing and butchering her we found several bullet fragments, all of them quite small, maybe 30 or 40 grains being the largest.
I feel very fortunate to have recovered that deer. The bullet desintegrated upon impact with a rib. I am not bashing powerbelts, just relating my experience with them. I wouldn't think at that range I was overdriving the projectile. I am going with something else next season, maybe the shockwave, I've heard good and bad about them too.
Art

RE: On the ability of the 295 PB to penetrate
 

flounder33,

Your experience at that range, with that charge, is typical. Look at the chart below. Figuring your elevation at 1000 ft, I get 1372 for impact velocity. Just like I said in my previous posting, you got over expansion, excessive weight loss, and non-pass through performance.

Oddly enough, I think you would have been satisfied if you had used 2 30 grain pellets instead.