Shooting Artillery bullets....
 

Newbie - shooting conicals......

Not that I want to but the State of Idaho has declared we will shoot conicals from a pivoting hammer only. The rest of the rules almost confines you solely to flint locks or percussion guns.

I recieved an order of 460NE last week from Dave Stevens last week and I have been really wanting to get out and shoot these heavy weights. We have had lousy weather since I got them and have not been able to get out. Well taday enough was enough - I went to Strychinine and decided to shoot no mater what... This was my first experiance shooting conicals by myself on my own - I had shot a few years and years ago but nothing you can call experiance. But listening to Cayugad, UC, and shooting with Casecadedad - I felt I could handle it alright.

My mission today was to shoot through the chrono and find out what velocity I moght be shooting... I am a velocity person - I want velocity, but I knew I was not going to get anything like I get with sabots and copper clad bullets. For my own piece of mind I need to know. Another thing that worried me was loading them.... I don't think I have ever used a short starter - in fact it took me awhile to even find one.

Anyway arrived at the gravel pile set up the table and bags, the chrono, and the target - in the snow and while it was snowing. Next project load the Hawken, I decided to start @ 80 grains first (T7-3f) - dropped the charge, then inserted a .125 shot card, thought that might be a little difficult to keep it flat, piece of cake, pushed it down on the powder, then picked up a goowy 460 placed it in the barrel, used the short starter to start it, the the short ram rod in the starter. Heck it was easy - it went down easier than a lot of sabots... never used the short starter after that, placed the shot card - thumbed it down flush - insterted the 460 thumbed it down about halfway - set the range rod on, (by the way the spin jag fit the bullet perfectly) pushed it and the card down together - piece of cake....

First shot (labeled #1 - dang set trigger) was not good and had nothing to do with the bullet or charge. 2-3 and four followed. I actually was not to disappointed in the final three - I am not the best open sight shooter in the world, and I was more concerned with getting the bullet through the chrono than anything else. 80 grains and the 460 - did provide a decent recoil - not as bad as it could have been but I was shooting with just 2 "T" shirts on for padding and the Hawken does not have the best recoil pad in the world. I was surprised with the velocity - I should say I was really happy and surprisedwith the 1500 fps second range.

Then of the heck of it, I thought I would try 70 grains just to check the velocity difference. A lot of things went into those last three shots.... I was much more comfortable shooting, I was figuring out the open sights again, and I was a whole lot more confident in the bullets. Anyway the last three were really great.

I have not given up on 80 grains yet - but the 70 grain thing looks awful good. I know I do want to change the rear Williams sight from from a bump and guess sight to a TC adjustable sight. I that will help my comfort level also. And right now, because of the weight of the bullet I think I am going to do the Cayugad thing and sight in @ 75 yards and try to use the placement of the front sight blade in the rear sight for longer shots whenthey are necessary.

I have not ran a ballistic chart on the bullet yet that will be my next project. But I think if I can learn how to shoot it to 100+ yards it should have the energy to stop an elk or awhitetail.

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Sabot loader those velocity readings are most impressive. I would have never guessed the 80 gr of Triple Se7en would have had that kind of speed. I was always running them at 1350 fps. Thanks for the new information. You made my White Ultra Mag smile big time.

Be sure and try them without wads, and maybe steal some cornmeal from the kitchen and try that too. 20 grains is plenty of cornmeal. 5, 6, & 7 look mighty fine to me. Good shooting.

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good shootin. id take either group. and that sucker is packin a PUNCH. wow. 1500fps...460gr bullet..wow.

if for no other reason im glad my gun hates conicals is the recoil. i shot maxis i think 350gr or somethng. 80 or 90gr of BP..man did that thing HURT. it wasnt sharp like a centerfire hit. it was a solid punch and push and hang on tight or the brass buttplate will bust you in the mouth kinda kick. im not recoil sensative either. i just got tired of shooting them big ole hunks of lead. i still wanna try some conicals with cornmeal and bore buttons. theres no reason everyones 1:48 shoots conicals and mine wont. ive shot 4 or 5 conicals and 100 diffrent powder combos and cant get it to satisfy me. id love to hunt with them. them big ole suckers will knock the snot out of anything it hits!

kills on one end..cripples on the other!

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cayugad

OK help, what is the purpose of the corn meal? The only reasons I was using the wad is to protect the bottom of the lead bullet from the heat of the 3f load and to prevent the lubricant from the bullet contaminating any of the powder, and I was thinking of this more on the lines of hunting in warmer weather and the fact the gun may stay loaded for long periods of time.

I have to say I was surprised by the velocities... and this chrono has been very consitent and accurate in the past. It was placed 10' off the muzzle.

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sabotloader, the only way I can get some guns like my Omega to shoot conicals good is by using cornmeal we dont know exactly why just that it works. Lee

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The cornmeal acts as a buffer like the wad. It also seems to clean the barrel a little at the same time. My White shot well with cornmeal. My Knight does not. So, since you're a old hand with this sport I am sure you will figure out the best kind of load...

Although the figures are excellent. I ran some numbers and the energy is amazing.

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cayugad

Not really! when it comes to shooting conicals... I have a lot of worries, the contamination thing, lead fouling in the barrel, trajectory, & etc...

I just asked Terry, about corn meal - not sounding like she has any - at least she knows what it is - I don't... So then the next question - if you are using speed loaders in the field - how do assure the corn meal stays on top of the powder? or do you have to load from 2 different containers?

I just ran the ballistics on Barnes - gees! this might not be that bad at all from aHawken/Renegade- I know I have more faith in the 460 than I do most PB's. The Renegade NE's are 535 grain 54's - can not even imagine that one... it is like you were going after elephants or something. I would like to "myth busters" do a impact test on that one...

here is the ballistic chart.... Kinda neat... look at the 6" point blank range information - that is really interesting....

RE: Shooting Artillery bullets....
 

Big heavy conicals are great. You might try the roundball to.

So how do you like conicals vs. sabots so far?

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Sharp Shooter

I do NOT want to hurt anybodies feeling, but given a choice I would shoot fast, flat, sabots all day. There is a reason that bullet manufactures, people, and guns moved from all lead bullets to copper jacketed bullets.

But in the same breath it was kinda fun shooting them today....

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Hey Mike,

Thats awesome! I appreciate the T7 chrony numbers, I just bought a pound about a month ago and your data will be useful. I am very impressed with2000 ft-lbs at the muzzle. 777 is very energetic. 70 grains with the 460 NE will take whatever you plan tohunt.

I know you are dissappointed in the loss of sabots in Idaho ML season, but this will definitely spice up your life and add new dimension to the sport for you. For maximum point blank shooting, 1/10 the muzzle velocity is a pretty good rule of thumb.For maximum PBR, I like to be a little higher than 3" at the top of the arc so that the PBR range limit isn't right at 3" low. The top of the arc is alot closer than the end of the useful PBR, it can be trusted more, and more easily adusted to. You will get it all worked out. Great to hear your first outing was successful:D.

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Pglasgow

That is better than I thought I would get from you... I thought for sure you were going to tell me about the 45/70 Buffalo gun... and what it could do... I remember it was one of your favorites.... and I was going to come back but, even Quigley shot 110 grains of BP when he was down under....

OK - lost me explain again in everyday terms that I will understand, what you are telling me.....

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Now come on folks you all know according to TB it is un ethical to shoot them there rounds you will have wounded deer running all round that state. (Just kidding great work from a great rifle)

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sabot, why dont you try the 385 grain great plains bullets out? you'd be good out to 150 yards with them. im using 90 grains pyro rs and the 385gn bullet and Phil did his chart on the computer and it shows me good out to 120 yards dead on and i believe 7" low at 150. Seeing how t7 is more powerful than RS, you'd probably be only a couple inchs low at 150.

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Sabotloader, your chosen name says a lot. I wonder if Conicaloader s available! Having been a long time user of the 370 maxiballs, I'll be interested to see how you work up a 100 yd. load with that weapon. Be careful. At 90 grains RS I get a major pounding after 10 rounds or so. Good thing I don't bruise easily. Can't imagine a 460 gr. wallop. Don't be too concerned about lead fouling. Solvents probably deal better with lead than with plastic. I have a feeling well be seeing some pictures of your elk on the ground next Fall. Good shooting.

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I was just saying that you really can't be certain that the bullet will be 3" low at the MPBR. It is better to lift the trajectory so that you are say 1.5" low at that range. Yes, it will raise the arc above 3", but it is a more predictable trajectory for a number of reasons. If you happen to 1 1/2" off at the MPBR, you still hit within 3" of POA. So maybe the top of the arc is almost 4" at 70 yards, but70 yards is pretty easy to tell and if you need to adjust for it won't be difficult.

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90 grains RS and the 385 grain bullet feels like peanut butter. 14 shots one day and a huge smile on my face and zero pain. Except for my hands, they were frozen. #1 rule, always keep a set of gloves in the truck!

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If you want to try some 385 grain Buffalo Bullet Conicals, let me know.. I have a case of them.. :D

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Im still interested in buying some off you! I'd easily buy up 100 bullets for starters.

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Gander, what gun are you using? The metal buttplate on my CVA mountain rifle is pretty unforgiving. Maybe I'm just soft....

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ouuuuuuuch! metal buttplate + 385 grain bullet for me = Im on the way to the hospital with a broken collar bone. The rifle im shooting those out of is a Win. X-150 with a nice recoil pad. My traditions flintlock likes the 295 grain powerbelts and even then i drop my load down to 70-80 grains.

RE: Shooting Artillery bullets....
 

cayugad

Dave, I do not even know what they look like - I'll try to find some on the net - ya no! looks are everything - can not shoot a bullet that doesn't have class...

What are your feelings between the two bullets, again remembering I have not shot conicals.... I do want to get one bullet for both elk and deer - for me making hunting adjustements with open sights is much more difficult than adjustments with a scope...

Found them - they do not look that bad at all - Hollow Points right... wonder what the BC on them might be? and if they will fly as well as the NE's...

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yeoman

I like that handle... "Conicaloader" - but I really do not want to get to attached to conicals.... I hunt all year with ML's now so really most of my hunting will still be with sabots and Noslers or Speers...

Conicaloader - some body should jump all over that handle....

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I have no idea of the BC of the buffalo bullet conicals. Of the ones your shooting I would think the No Excuse would be the best choice. Well good luck with them. I will have to try some of the Bull Shop conicals out of my GMB and see how they shoot.

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cayugad

The only reason I have a BC on the NE is "Big 6x6" tested them along with some White conicals for UC

Cascadedad has a bunch of Bullshops - that are undersized for his White - I am going to get a few of those from him and try them also - maybe - I think... I am headed over to Kennewick this weekend - the grandkids have baseketball and indoor soccer games this weekend - so I will probably make contact with Glen over there....

I respect your opinion on the NE's I am pretty sure you are the one that first drew my interest to them vs powerbelts...

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Mike,

Since you have a chrony anda good working knowledge of using ballistics program, you can easily adjust the elevation from one load to another, (even windage if you have a typical T/Crear sight with the screw windage adjustment with graduations) Below I describe how to do it. Also, you can log sight locations in grads so that you can go right back to anold setting for a previous load.


[blockquote]quote:

ORIGINAL: cayugad

Also it's amazing how accurate your sight adjustment is.. [/blockquote]


Dave, its precisely 2 MOA per grad. Everysight has an MOA per grad. Its nice when its a whole number like 2, makes it easy for adjustment. Its a very simple thing once you know what the drop/grad ratio is. The easiest way to find it is to shoot the rifle. I like 25 yards because one can do a considerable change in MOA and still be on target and the sighting MOA is small. First pick a Major Grad low on the ramp, shoot a 3 shot group, Next take a large step up in grads, I did nine when doing the Apex. The larger the step up the more the change in ramp position will swamp sighting error. Just divide the inches separating the centers of the upper and lower groupby the number of grads adjusted.Multiply that by 4 to get inches per grad at 100 yards. This number is roughly the MOA per grad.

Then its just a matterknowing the trajectory. In my case, if I am4" lower than I want to be at 100 yards, just adjust 2 grads. This because the drop from the boreline is the same no matterwhere the boreline is pointed.So need to lift the POI of 4" at100 yards" just lift the borelineso that it intersects100 yards4 inches higher. It's handy stuff.

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Pglasgow

That is my problem right now the GM barrel came with williams sights. They are what I call bump and guess - you loosen a screw and push the it up or down the ramp - the windage is even more difficult to adjust... I am going to replace the rear sight and hope the front is the correct height to work.




The graduation marks on the side are hard to use and there are not windage marks....

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Atleast yours has markings on it, my new ones had zero, i just got done making a little scratch so i know where im at if i adjust for different bullets. Im not a big fan of those williams sights, they were always to blurry for me and somewhat harder to line up.

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If you can get a T/C fiberoptic rear sight I bet it would work perfect.I have not found any noticeable difference between loads on windage POI, so once you have that pinned down, you can probably leave that untouched (provided the sight is aligned with bore) between different loads. The grads on my rifle sight for elevationare similar to whatyou have and it works great for me. I won't have any trouble making an elevation adjustment just as soon as I know wherea load prints in elevation. Sorry its not helping you though, I tried:).

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I must of missed something, what kind of gun was shooting 1500fps with 80gr of 777 and a 460NE?

I am only getting 1470fps using 90gr of 777 and the 460NE. I have a 26" barrel so if you have a longer barrel it may account for the difference. Maybe the bore is a bit tighter and therefore develops a bit more pressure. Just interested in what made the difference.

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I fyou want a flatter trajectory try some lighter conicals. How about the Buffalo Ballet or the Buckslayers.

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He is shooting a 28" Green Mountain Barrel which gives probably 27.5 " of working bore. If you are shooting an inline, then you'd have maybe 24.5" of working bore? He is shooting 777 3f, so that may also have an effect. His chronies were higher than I would have guessed, evidently the GMB 3f 777 are very efficient with the 460 NE.

Based on his results, I would guess that 90 grains of 3f 777 would yield 1575 +- 15 fps at the muzzle in his GMB. The extra length of barrel and the difference between 3f and 2f could account for the difference. It will be interesting to read your findings on the results you get with your new fast twist lyman rifle.

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Sabotloader (or should I say Former Sabotloader :)) - I have a pretty good conical load that has performed well both at the range and on elk in the field. I'm not sure how bad the recoil is going to be out of a hawken type rifle though - it wasabout like a 12 ga.turkey loadout of a Black Diamond.

I use a 410 gr. Hornady Great Plains with a MMP Ballistic Bridge sub base; and load 120 gr. 2F Triple 7. It was goingabout 1800 fps in mygun and shot 2" at 100 yards pretty consistently. The 200 yard groups were about 6". This bullet shot fairly well with charges in the 70 to 90 gr. level without the sub base - but really opens up at the higher charge level unless you use the plastic base. On elk, it is one of the big bruisers that mushrooms moderately, but still has good penetration for shoulder shots.

The use of a Caldwell Lead Sled will allow you to shoot these extensively without getting all bruised up. I never feel the recoil when actually hunting.

You might first check and see if your sidelock is rated for magnum loads before going this high with 2f Triple 7. My understanding is that the 150 gr. Pyrodex loads are in the same pressure and performance bracket. Good luck. Roskoe

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Dear Conicaloader, :D:D:D

If you remember right, the last time you were over, I tried to get you to shoot some of my conicals. I was just trying to give you a head start on all this, but noooooooooooooo. :D

Send me an email when you firm up your schedule for this weekend. Josh has a basketball game sometime Saturday also. If nothing else, we can meet at Sportsman's WH in the evening and try to get each other in trouble. I think they are having a sale on scopes!!!!! :D

I don't think it has been mentioned here, but given the new Idaho rules, isn't the length limited to 1 1/2 times the diameter? I have a good assortment of Bullshops. They are all .5040" and .5045" diameter. What diameter are the 460's you bought? I have 300 gr, 350 gr, 400 gr, 460 gr, 500 gr and 620 gr. Yes, the 620 gr on top of 100 gr of T7 packs a punch. Remember that???? But, on a side note, two weekends ago I got out and shot some of the 460's on top of 70 gr of Swiss fff. Dang, that stuff has a SHARP recoil.

Mike, you can see a picture of the 300's and 350's on the Mr. Bullshop post on DWB's. Also, the length of the 300 gr is .625" and the length of the 350 gr is .720". So, if 1 1/2 times is the limit, the 350 might be as big as you can go in the .50. I haven't measured the 400, I'll try to remember to do that tonight.

Nice shooting by the way. And stop telling everybody you are not that good of a shooter with open sights.;)

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Boy! That 80-grain load looks real good to me. It should do for most anything you aim it at.....

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Sabotloader, I'm nothappy to see the edit to "yards" on the target. I had been thinking "I might be able to do that with my gun at 50 feet". Now you're back out of my league! Nice shooting "newbie".

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yeoman

Sorry sbout that... i have been working for the forest service using my laser to measure trail and parking lot distances - so I have to remember to convert the yards it reads to the feet the fs uses- so I just had feet on my mind I guess... but it was suppose to be 50 yards.. the gun was already sighted in for 300 grain sabotted bullets - so I went right to 50 yards... I am hoping to shoot some @ 75 and 100 tomorrow if everything goes right....

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Those are some really good numbers for that bullet. I shot the 410 gr. great plains conicals this past season with 90 gr. of FF 777. The range results were very good andthe results on deer and hogs were impressive. I've got some I can send your way if you want to try'em. They're a hollow based, flat point.

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Chris W.

Thanks for the offer Chris... I am going to hold up right now there may be a bullet length issue... there was nothing posted in the "new rules" that I down loaded from the Idaho Fish & Game, but I do know the"trads" would really like to keep it to PRB's.....maybe they got that language in also...

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A bullet length issue? Oh brother :eek:. Just let me know and I'll sendsome your way.

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I had overlooked this thread Mike, but I don't see why you need be concerned with anything better than that 70 grain load. Stacking holes at 50 yards out of a sidelock with 460 grains conicals -you are THERE. Those velocity figures are impressive for the heavier charge but the only one that's going to know the difference so far as effect is YOU. You will be punishing yourself to make a dead animal deader. :D

I've not ran any ballistic charts but either load should be fine out to about 125 yards without worrying much withholdat ranges from here to there. Again, the additional powder is only going to leave more bruise on your shoulder - you still won't have anything resembling the kind of trajectories you've gotten used to seeing. In fact, to heck with ballistic charts. Settle on that 70 grainload and learn your rifle's behaviorwith further practice. My guess is you'll run out of eyes before your rifle becomes limiting. :D

Be interesting to see where that 70 grain charge puts you at 100 yards with no changes (sights, load, nuttin). I'll guess you'll be about 2" low at 100 yards and 32" low at 200 yards :D. Now if you used the heavier powder charge, you might only be 28" low at 200.

Are range finders legal out there? Wheels? ;)

I'll confess that I only skimmed this thread to before posting, looking back through to make this edit - saw your ballistic charts... you know they might be pretty close. :D

Snowball arc but the arc isvery consistent - snowballs from hell!! :)