I know this will start a controversy but that's not what I want.

I want to know what you guys consider a shot group from your muzzleloader. My belief is that it was the distance between the two farthest shots. How exactly do you measure it?

Another thing I wanna know is, "what if you get a 2 inch group and then flinch one and send it out 6 inches?" Would that be an 8 inch group? How do you guys judge yours? Also, do youshoot a certain number of times for your group? I normally use the same target for all of my shots. This could be as many as 30 at a time. As you all know, inmy case, I will probably shoot a 1 foot group. I might have gotten in some good shots, but there's always gonna be several bad ones that ruin the overall consistency when I'm shooting.

So, when I'm trying to get the best groups possible, do you recommend shooting a certain number of shots, and how would you measure the group? When you hear people say they shoot 2 inch groups, what does that normally say? That they can put three shots in a 2 inch circle?

Sorry, if it sounds like a pointless question. I thought it would be interesting to see if all people measured the same. Please, no crap. I didn't want to start anything. Any advice from the people I do believe to be the experts(you guys) would be great.

outdoorslover,

Let me start by commending you on your insight. I noticed in your other post that you continued to shoot into the same target throughout the entire shooting session. Thats pretty cool and show you want a good picture of all the uncertainties involved in hitting your point of aim. I'll try to answer your questions as best I can.

Before the flinched shot you have a 2" group,when you flinch you can miss by 6". The 2" group tells you that you can repeat your pointing skill very well, the flinch shot tells you how far you can miss if you happen to flinch. I have to admit, I appreciate the honesty of the 6" miss, this kind of miss is something you will over come because you recognize its source.

I like to do 4 or 5 shots to a group. Folks tend to shoot 3 shot groupings because they are easy to analyze, and I often do. The centers of the groups are easy to find for one thing (so when you are moving sights this is a bonus). The more shots you analyze though, the more it tells you about your POI uncertainties. So if its 3 shot groups, one wants to consider the attributes of a few of them as opposed to the best grouping of a few.

Most folks measure the greatest spreadto calculate their group size, basically a circle which passes through the centers of the two most distant bullet prints. Another method is to calculate mean radius.The idea here is where should the POI be and how far off is the average miss. Both are useful method of analysis but if you post a particular group size without commenting on the method, most will assume the prior and not the latter.

Keep practicing and you'll continue to improve.

Added: Outdoorslover, here's how you find the center of a 3 shot grouping. I think the picture says it better than I can, but if it isn't clear, just ask.

I think a group is typically the distance between the centres of the two shots which are furthest apart. A group wouldn't be a group unless there are at least 3 shots.If a 3 shot group of 2" is good, a 5 shot group of 2" is better. As for the flinch, you could toss it out, but that wouldn't be very honest now would it. The idea is, after all, to perfect all aspects of our shooting to arrive at tight, consistent performance. I believe the best answer is to keep all targets, date them, record distance, charge, bullet, weather etc., and any special notes such as "pulled the one on the far left- delayed ignition". I get your question though. If we don't have a standard in conversation how do we know? As for a goal, mine would be to extend my range predicated on the ability to land 6 hitsin 6 shots on a 6 inch diameter circle, for deer hunting. I'm glad you brought this up!

Thanks for that help so far. I've always wondered if there was a standard way to measure groups. I for one can shoot alright but need to work on the grouping. IfI shot 20 times at 100 yards,I could maybe get a 3 inch group with ten of the shots but I always have some that won't stay in the group. If you think about it, what if you shoot a bullet 3 inches high of POA and then drop one 3 inches low? It would be a 6 inch group but not necessarily bad shooting. You really were only 3 inches off the mark both times which would still kill a deer without difficulty. I don't focus on the groups when shooting as much as how far off the point of aim I was. It shows inconsistency to shoot a 6 inchgroup but not neccessarily BAD shooting. That's my theory. Sometimes I've gotten 2 inch groups that were nowhere near the center. It shows consistency but it's not good shooting. I would love to hear more comments on this topic.

I personally like to shoot a five shot group. Many shoot only a three, but a five gives me a chance to flinch or throw one for any number of reasons. I like to see where that one might go. Then I look at the group and measure center to center the two furthest apart holes.



for instance, when I was sighting in my Sightron Scope, the final group had a couple fliers. But I still measure the overall group from the two furthest shots. This tells me that although the rifle will shoot where it should I can flinch a few out of the main group.

"Sometimes I've gotten 2 inch groups that were nowhere near the center. It shows consistency but it's not good shooting.."

Outdoors, you may want to reconsider this. If this occurs because of consistency and not accident, then it is in fact good shooting. The problem lies not with the group, but the POA (point of aim). For instance, a crosswind of 15 MPH might wellmove your shots off of the target face dot by several inches at 100 yds. That doesn't mean you shot poorly, only that you need to consider windage if you are truly looking to hit a specific spot at that distance and under those conditions.

I've been getting lots of "flinch practice" lately, as my caps have been failing to fire. (50% of the time on Sunday). I swear I think it's making me a better shot. A useful exercise at the range might be to have a friend put the primer in your gun, or not, just to see how you handle it. I find the fliers are the most educational shots I take. Another useful drill is to "call your shots". Really helps to identify weaknesses in form.

I really like the way you have gone about doing this. You literally know the percentage of shots which land within a 3" group. This kind of information is extremely useful for analysis. Given you have 50% probablity of landing in a 3" group with any given shot. Do you have any idea what the probability of getting a 3" group is? I think alot folks may surmise its pretty close to 50%. But it isn't. Its alot less than that.

You have 50% probablity of landing the first shot in a 3" group.

To get two in a row the probability is 50% for each shot so the Probability P2 = .50 x .50 = .25 or 25 % This basically means that if you tried 4 times you would get two consequetive shotin a 3" group in only one of those four groups. How about 3?

P3 = .5 x .5 x .5= .125 or 12.5 % which means if you try 20 times to get a 3 shots in a 3" group, you will succeed 2 times out of 20 attempts, half of the time, and 3 times out of 20attempts the other half.

In order to geta 3 shot group at 3"half the time, you must put80 percent of your shots inside the 3" group.

Its easy to get frustrated with group sizes when you don't understand what going into making them. There are factors beyond your control, which contribute and add to the uncertainty of POI. Don't make too much of any particular 3 shot group. If 100% of your shots were inside the 6" group, then you knowwhatyou're maximum range for hunting is. You simply plan your hunt to take advantage of your skills at less than 100 yards where your maximum miss is acceptable. Study the movements and signs of your gameand give yourself the opportunity of a high probability shot.

Meanwhile, one continues with the obsession of shrinking group sizes.

That is really helpful everyone. Those are amazing groups Cayugad.

I am fine with the way I am shooting. It hasn't cost me a deer yet. SomedayI know it will bite me though. What if I gut shoot a deer because I'm a bad shot? That would be tragic to me.

I most certainly am gonna work on my groups more. My goal by this hunting season is to shoot 3 inch groups of at least 5 in a row at 100 yards. That would be good enough for me ifI could do that anytime. I couldn't complain about that.

Today I shot 14 times. The crosswind was 35MPH--no kidding, so I stayed at 50 yards. I had one 300 grain XTP and shot it first. It hit dead center despite the wind. The rest were 230 grain sure shots. It was over a 4 inch group and they all hit about 6 inches high. I definetely like the 300's better. I guess that's cause I sighted in with them. Sometime whenI get money I'll buy as many bullets and powder as I can get my hands on. I'll try different kinds of bullets and many different loads. It will take a lot of testing but I'm gonna find the perfect load for that gun and stick to it. Then I'll master the shooting. It'll be nice to have one load all the time. I won't have to keep figuring it out. I guess it's more fun right now becauseI can keep trying to master it. Once youmaster something it seems to get more and more boring. Figuring it out is all the fun. I'm in no hurry. Maybe one dayI can keep up with you guys

Thanks for all the help once again and do feel free to comment any more.