Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Honestly, what is the difference in most newer M/L's ?? I have a 100 dollar CVA 50 cal. It will shoot a sub 2" group (best is 5/8") three shot group all day at 100 yards. Shoots a 4" group at 150. Whats the difference except the barrel length? I mean my brother in law brags about his Encore , but I shoot a better group?

I'd like to really know what the real difference is, as I am thinking about purchasing the CVA Pro Optima with the 29" barrel.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

The difference is the way the rifle is tested for one thing. Thompson Center, Knight, and a few other companies put their barrels through pressure tests to prove the barrel is safe with the manufactured recommended loads. Meaning they barrel will not blow up under normal manufacturer recommended loads.

My understanding is, when dealing withCVA/ BPI actually, there really is no way to determine what the "safe" barrel pressure rating should be. When youspecifically ask them about barrel pressure limits on the phone they respond.. they are safe. Nothing more then that. Ask them if they even test the barrels and see what they tell you. Yet if you go by the barrel pressure reading on the barrel of the BPI rifles, technically a number of different loads you shoot, surpass that barrel pressure rating. So the first issue would be, under certain conditions, the barrel says they are not safe, but the person on the telephone tells you they are.

I do not have a problem with BPI warranties. Every time I have used them, and we are talking a number of times, they have always came through for me. All it ever cost me was shipping one way to their company headquarters in Norcross, GA. I have had to use Thompson Center customer warranty for work, once. I broke the stock of a Renegade in a hunting accident. I called to purchase a new one. They instead shipped me one for free.

What I want to say, is your happy with your rifle, don't worry about the difference. If you're happy with a CVA, Winchester, Traditions, New Frontier, and a few other brands, then purchase them. Save your self some money. The barrel issue must not, or at least should not bother you. Load them to manufacturer's recommendations. I know there are reports of BPI barrels blowing. And it was suggested some of these incidents happened when the barrel was loaded to manufacturer's recommendations. The trouble is there is little to no solid substantiated information about the circumstances and loads at the time of the incident. These incidents are handled out of court and parties involved are not permitted to discuss the incident per agreement.

If you deal in some of the higher end BPI rifles, you find the fit to finish excellent. Look at all the recent posts on the Apex and Kodiak. They praise the rifle's appearance, finish, fit, and accuracy. So something must be right there. I personally own one CVA inline rifle. It is a great shooting rifle. I shoot it all the time. It is a very accurate rifle. I do not load more them 100 gr of powder, but that is a personal thing with me for MY peace of mind.

Now we come to the idea, will a Thompson Center barrel blow? I am sure they will. If you want to load them enough to make them. Do I ever worry about a T/C barrel blowing? Every timeI load one. That's why I am so careful to make sure it is loaded to the specifications of the manufacturers. That is my safety net I feel.

As for your brother in-law's Encore that is not as accurate as your $100.00 CVA.. IMO he needs to work harder on his load or your shooting skills are better then his. Although I will say, the CVA is a good shooter most of the time and not all rifles, no matter who makes them, are perfect every time off the line.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

bowhunterjohn,

IMO the difference is the quality/craftmanship, and the grade of steel used by T/C. The lifetime warranty says a lot about the companies faith in the products that they manufacture too.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

bowhunterjohn

I have really tried to figure out how best to answer this question, and not cause a lot of controversy - yet try to be truly accurate.

It is obvious the biggest difference is the price between the two compainies. The other difference you should notice is that BPI also spends a lot of time trying to clone the accepted ML's that TC makes. Also remember BPI/CVA is not a gun maker company the are a marketing company. If you are a marketing company you need to market something the public really likes - well a lot of the public really likes the ML's that TC makes. Hence they will market a gun that looks like a TC but costs a lot less in most cases. Why, how are they able to make this big of a price difference?

I think are a couple of very obvious reason again...
a) When you purchase a TC you are also buying a warranty that really is a substantial thing. TC knows what this program cost them, actuaries have computed the costand this is included within the purchase price. I believe it is worth the extra for the coverage.
b) Labor costs in Spain are significantly less than labor cost here in the US where TC chooses to build their guns.
c) Environmental laws in Spain are not as much of a concern as they are here in the US again reducing costs.
d) Material costs are significantly less in Spain than they are here, again making a significant difference. Are the material an inferior quality to the ones that TC use, they certainly could be. TC has had to reduce some of their quality also to be able to compete with foriegn goods.

Are the barrels (the major component) and the concernbetter than the Spainish barrels - maybe - probably... Unfortunately we will never really know unless somebody poinies up and have the barrels tested by an independent testing facility. Which you would think that somebody would do - especially an American Company that is getting bit by the foriegn import or a safety advocate like RW and his personal mission to destroy BPI/CVA.

I once asked Doc White about his pressure testing, which was done in Utah, he did not give me pressure numbers either, just load numbers, but I believe UC found a copy of the testing report and posted it one time - it was impressive.

Cayugad, mentions, the pressure stamp on BPI/CVA barrels. The pressure stamp is placed on the barrels by a Spanish Company - The House of Elbar. By Spanish law no barrels can be shippedoutside Spain with out being testedby the House of Elbar, a good way to keep your government sponsoredproofing house in business. The fact is there is only two proofing house in the world, Spain and London, England. I have been told there is onein Honk Kong also but I have not been able to find it. It costs money to have a barrel tested - the higher the test the greater the cost. Spain has set the minimum standard by law - so what do you think BPI/CVA is going to test to - correct the minimum. Rifles shipped from the US or in the US do not have this requirement. There are testing facilities in the US but they are not government proofing house.

Your CVA product shooting tighter groups than brothers Encore might be possible, but I would think if you got your brothers Encore and worked up your load you would should the same group with his gun. Yet then again not all barrels are created equally even amoung the same manufacturer.

I would not have a problem purchasing a BPI/CVA product but as with my centerfire rifles - I have tried to purchase upscale rifles and when it comes to ML's I have progessed to the same point. You are only as good as your tools and the confidence you have in those tools - I have confidence in the TC products that own. On the same thought would I buy a TC Black Diamond or a CVA product like a Kodiac/Apex/ even a X-150 -> then any of the 3 CVA's would be a better purchase for me because of the personal perception that I have, and conversly I would purchase a Black Diamond before I would purchase the low end of the BPI/CVA line.

This has already gotten to wordy - I quit....

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Cost is the biggest difference, and marketing. If you have a gun that will shoot 2" groups at 100, stay with it, unless your like me and just want something newer/different.
Chap Gleason Va

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

I love these kinds of posts.
Guys get on the net and try to drag down higher quality firearms because they personally won't spend the money on them. Never fails, the argument is always the same. Why should I pay 600 dollars on an Encore when I can spend 200 dollars on brand X. Funny thing is that you never hear of Encore guys bashing the 200 dollar guns. There isn't anything wrong with these guns, but they aren't even in the same league as an Optima or Encore. Most are well built and will function very well as long as you stay within their limitations.

How often do you hear about Encore or Optima users talking about how they are going to get one of the 200 dollar brand X guns?

Bottom line is that the T/C guns are better made, have a better guarantee and would probably be the last m/l a person would ever have to buy. You want a top of the line M/L, whether it is a T/C or not, spend the money. If something less satisfies your need and meets YOUR standard, buy it. If you want to go the cheap route, do that then. But, you can not compare an Encore or Optima w/ a good quality Nikon or Leupold on it to a CVA gun with a BSA.

So, if you just don't want to spend the money, ok fine.Why try to talk bad about the quality guns to make it ok in your mind?

Hank

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Encore or Optima??? You must mean Encore or Omega. The Optima is the $200 gun.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Hey I wasn't bashing any gun, just asking honest factual opinions

I own a Mathews Outback, close to 700 bucks in it. I bought it because of the ease in drawing and feel. Its kinda hard to try out a gun though, maybe some store that offered this might be making a mint.

My neighbor bought a Traditions XLT with thumbhole stock. he asked me to mount the scope and sight it in for him. It felt nice, shot good. Got me thinking about buying a better M/L

I like CVA, but am open. The new Optima with 29" barrel isn't a 200 dollar gun, more like 300-400 depending on stocks and barrel preference.

Hank, its the same in anything some people can shoot, others can't. same in Golf. I golf competivly for many years. Some guys would have 3k in clubs but couldn't break 90 to save their lives. Don't take things so personal, I started this thread for some honest answers, not to start an arguement

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

bowhunterjohn

I can relate.... I have been shooting trap now for about 5 years (recreationally)- I break 22 with regularity - I shoot a $600 Russian Sporting Gun and some of the guys I shoot with have them $15,000 dollar guns but youknow - cause I know I could use one of them for 5 years and I would still be breaking 22 birds...

mike

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

I am a strongT/C supporter after purchasing my Black Diamond. I got a great deal. I could have bought a CVA buckhorn for half the cost but I just have alot of faith in the T/C name and have friends who've delt with them on warranty on stuff that probably shouldnt be warrantied. I have friends who love CVA. I considered a wolf and looked some at the new Optima Elite since its interchangable. But I believe I'll be throwin the extra green down on an Encore.I just trust it alot more. I was at the range the other day and some guy had a brand new CVA of some sorts it was an inline with a nice lookin wood stock. For about 30 trigger pulls it only struck the primer about 7 times and the guy kept askin me about my Diamond which on 20 trigger pulls sent out 20 powerbelt platinums into a 1-1.5" group. Another guy I work with has a Wolf and loves the crap out and shoots a 1.5-2" at the same 100yard range. Another guy has an inline and has had several internal component failures(cant remember what exactly). I think its kind of like with bows. It dont take a 800 dollar Hoyt Vectrix to kill a deer when a PSE Nova will for $150. But if you have complete confidents in the quality of your weapon you will be confident in the hunt.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Man, I am surprised that there are so many posts on this thread after cayugad said it all pretty well in the first reply.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Yup,
Omega, not Optima. But, that IS what CVA intended, isn't it?

I don't take it personal, just trying to set the record straight.
Anyway, you personally may have not intended the argument. But, it is a frequent occaision here that someone brings up the cheap gun vs T/C argument. There are several high quality, well made m/lers out there, not just T/C.

Like I said, there is nothing wrong w/ the CVA guns.I started w/ an optima pro, then tried an Encore and knew that the additial money was what I had to spend it I wanted to moveup in quality and capability. They are well made and as long as they are used within the limitations that they have, they are fine hunting weapons. If that is what a person wants, then fine, buy one. There may be a better m/ler out there than an Encore. I may not feel that the additional expense is worth it, but you won't hear me bash the better made gun just to justify what I have settled with.

The best thing I can advise is that if you have not shot an Encore, you should probably try it. May even want to look at some of the White, Knight and other guns as well.

Hank

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

ahankster

Nope! the Optima is a cloned Encore frame- the Kodiac and the Winchester Apex are the Omegas...

Hard to keep up with CVA...

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Wow, this is one interesting topic. Everyone has said everythingI could possibly want to.

I also think that TC is better quality than CVA or any brand for that matter. They have an unbeatable warranty and amazing guns with wonderful barrels and near flawless craftsmanship and design.

However, CVA is perfectly suitable.The barrels might not be as good, blah, blah, but they are still wonderful guns. What difference does it make if a gun can shoot a one inch group versus a 3 inch group? It's not gonna matter on game. If you're a competitive shooter it will. I'm not. For hunting I don't see any reason to spend the extra money on the TC when you can get a wonderful gun for half the price.

I still love TC more than any manufacturer. If you have the cash to blow on one then get it. If not settle fora slightly lesser but perfectlysuitable CVA.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Sabotloader,
I bet to differ. I think that is exactly what they intended. Confuse the marketplace by using similar names. I agree that the Optima is a copy of the Encore, but I still think the choice of names was as much a copy of a T/C product as the gun is.
The M/L marketplace has a few innovators, T/C, Savage, White to name a few, most of the rest are copiers using cheaper spanish materials and labor. Much like many marketplaces today.
Hank

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

ahankster

There-you-go... you are correct - wonderful world of marketing...

Sometimes it is not all bad though.... look at an American car in the late 60's early 70's - if it wasn't for Honda, Toyota, and the German imports we would still be driving those things... The competition forced GM-Ford-Chrysler to upgrade and build a better mouse trap just to compete. And that competition contiues today throughout the market.

And is that not good for us the consumer?

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

optima is based off the nef sidekick. not the encore. I really dont know what to say about these kind of posts anymore. Every rifle that comes out or atleast a good percentable will need work, no matter what brand. Some get lucky, some dont. A few years back i wanted my first compound bow, my brother and i were looking around i and a i saw a pse nova at walmart for $100. He bought me that and its a great shooting bow. The only thing ive changed is the rest, i put a whisker biscuit on it and i added 2 more sights to have a total of 5, and added a peep sight. Great shooting, quiet bow, why spend more when a cheaper version offers great results? I dont need all this fancy stuff, i just want a rifle/bow thats built well and will hold up for many years. I just started using carbon arrows and love them! Nice not to bend an arrow on every missed shot.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

I think the answer isnoone really knows for sure. Unless I own an Omega or Encore, how could I even begin to tell you. I have owned a SSSidekick and I have owned an SSApex. I can tell you that my impression is this. The Apex is many times the rifle the Sidekick. My satisfaction with the Sidekick, (when I didn't know better), was good enough. But after owning the Apex, it was clear to me that I didn't want to shoot a Sidekick any longer. The difference in quality and features are just that compelling.

So why you might ask did I not buy a SS Omega? I don't know exactly. But for the most part I wanted a rifle which would shoot conicals excellent and if it shoots sabots well thats a bonus. I didn't feel I could take a chance on a rifle that most (tc users)here say is a "designed for sabot only" rifle (even though some findconicals to shoot well). Cabelas had discounted the Apex so much, I could buy two with my Cabelas points for less than the price of one Omega. That suited me, I could have two rifles if the first worked out, one scoped for rifle, the other unscoped for ML season.

For me its not a question of whether Omega is better than Apex or vice versa. I am totally satisfied with my choice and aint gonna look back. Will I own an Omega in the future. Sure, why not? But for the extra money I do want to know what the differences really are and whether they will mean any thing meaningful to me. It'd be great to be able to go out to the range with an Omega owner and let him shoot the Apex while I shoot his Omega. Without doing that, I have no idea what the Omega is really like and just what I am missing out on.

It is clear to me. That for BPI/CVA to survive, they must put enough value into to their products to compell folksto purchase them. With all trashing that goes on about their barrels, they must sell them for less because the trash talk devalues them. After owning one of the higher end ones, I must say that I thinkthe value is there. If my Sidekick was worth $249, then the Apex is worth every penny of $399. So obviously I was happy to get mine for $180(my dad got his for $160 after discounts.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

If the designs, as concepts, where all that unique, would it not infringe upon patent rights? I can't see anything innovative, in terms of new technologies, in any of the examples yougave. A break action, drop type action, bolt action, whatever. Its just using old ideas in a modern muzzleloading product. How many actions can there be out there?

Another thing, how can you be sure that labor is cheaper in Spain? Real estate, food, energy, literally everything is more costly there. Maybe their labor does cost them more. They are competing against foul claims not substantiated in fact, send products across the ocean, and still surviving and really barely at that.I own one of their products, my first, I don't feel bad one iota that someone earned their daily bread in Spain because I purchased one.

The one thing you guys are missing, is that competition is good for the consumer. It doesn't make sense as a consumer to wish the demise of market participants who ensure you won't get raked by a monopoly. Some of you folks are sad that White is gone and maybe Knight will also be going. How would you like if the only muzzleloader available was a T/C?

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

i am lucky enough to own an Encore. Just love it's accuracy, reliability, versatility,and good looks. Also own two CVA guns, an old 100 grain limited Staghorn and a Mag. Hunter. That old Staghorn is just as accurate as the Encore. It will easily shoot one inch groups at 100 yards when i am up to it. The Mag Hunter is problematic. Had a hard time working up loads for it. Used it as a loaner for a few years. Fired it a couple of weeks ago for the first time ina year or so. Got it to liking 100 grains of loose Pyrodex and aTraditions 300 grain .429 XTPsabot. It is not nearly as accurate as the old Staghorn or the Encore.

Years ago when i bought the Staghorn i did the conversion from the Spanish metric"proof" to psi. It works out to about 10,000 psi. That is not much. Many Pryodex,APP and even black powder loads easily exceed that. The old Staghorn with the two piece barrel/receiver is was limited by CVA to 100 grains of Pyrodex. Then they came out with the guns with the one piece barrel/receiver and claim that they are safe with 150 grains of Pyrodex. i used to load the Mag Hunter with 150 grains of Pyrodex and a 240 grain XTP but found it was not needed and was, perhaps, unsafe in that gun. My Mag Hunter is now limited to 100 grains of loose Pyrodex and a 300 grain bullet.

i'm going elk hunting in New Mexico and Wyoming this year and will work up a heavy loadusing a 300 grain SST for the Encore.i would not even think of such a load in any CVA.

Bottom line: I trust the T/C Encore toperform safely with heavy loads. Until they are properly tested, ino longertrust CVA (BPI) with heavy loads.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

:)I personally like the slogan BUY AMERICAN. [:@]Is awful hard today to findMade in the USAon any product sold in this country. [:@]Shoot we are taught all thru school that countrys like russa and china are bad but we sure buy a bunch of china crap.
Keep buying it and won't be many jobs left in AMERICA except unloading the boats and shipping the crap to the stores to be sold.

:)So I say the biggest differance is buying an AMERICAN product.

:) Al

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

while I am TC and custom build for myself I do have to say if I could not get a TC it would be a Knight far and away the gun is as good the quality is as good I just like TC design a bit better. Lee

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Hey,
I have two Black powder rifles.
My first muzzler was something I got just for fun.
Before Texas had a Muzzlerloader season.
This was aCabelas.54Hawkens,had it drilled and taped for a side mount.
Knight was out of my price range at that time,and I think the only in inline you could buy.
Never could get the rifle to shoot better than 4" group at 100yds.
But with that kind of group killedeverything that I shot at,within 100yds.
Years pass and won a hunting story contest,won $150.00
Ha ha I had the only story in the contest,so that made me the winner'''''.
Had to almost pull teeth to get the money,but I got it.
Took off to Bass Pro and got amark down Knight Disc,the one that shoots the orange disc with the new won money and a little extra in hand.
The knight shoots rings around my old Hawkens,the trigger is so sweet it's like the doubble set trigger on the Hawken.
The trigger is better than my Win.model 70 and shoots just as good.
But both brothers have the CVA's inline Mag Bolts.
Their is alot of differnce in the two rifles that are the same rifles.
One brother's CVA has a ok trigger pull,and loads with no problem.
The other brother's CVA has a very hard trigger pull,and loading the same bullet is like night and day.
Older brother's rifle you have to use your whole body weightjust to get the bullet down the barrel.
This all comes from the controlthey have at the factory,in what they send out to sell.
Buy the best you can and you want ever be sorry.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

In the past 5 weeks I have bought a T/C Omega and a CVA Kodiak. I have taken both of these out shooting many times. The CVA shoots just as well if not better than the T/C. The only difference I see in the two guns as far as performance is the trigger pull on the CVA is a little harder. After pulling it, it really makes the T/C feel like butter. The CVA comes with a lifetime warranty just like the T/C.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

I have two CVA's, both have great triggers on them, you just have to breath on them and the roar. But I can see where quality control is probably better on some high end M/L's

I am actually looking at the smokeless savage M/L, I know a guy who has one and says it hammers the deer, shoots a 335 grain bullet faster then his Black Diamond shot a 200 grain bullet. Not sure if thats true, but I read a review on the internet and it highly rates the Savage

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

I'm glad to hear your Kodiak is shooting so well. I've got a SS Kodiak Pro coming and hope mine does also. Since you do alot of shooting, it would be interesting if you could keep us updated on the two rifles and how each stands up to use relative to each other and the shots you've fired. Another thing of interest would be if one is pickier than the other about the loads it shoots well.I, and perhaps others, considerflexible feeding requirements a bonus and a feature which adds value.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Gander,
First off, as regarding the Optima being a copy of the NEF gun, you are totally wrong. The Optima was out at least two years before NEF made a m/ler.

Second, " i just want a rifle/bow thats built well and will hold up"
Ok, that is a great reason to buy what you want to buy. My point is that you decided on the amount you wanted to spend and the limitations that come with that. A person that makes this choice should be confident in their choice and not so insecure as to try to find reason and make up negatives about the higher quality of product. For example, I put Nikon scopes on my high powered and quality guns. On my 22s and plinking guns, I'll put a BSA or Simmons any day. I CHOOSE to not go with Swarovski or Kahles because I am happy with the price and level of quality with Nikon. But, you won't hear me bashing high end scopes because I am insecure with my choice.

I agree that the competition among M/L gunmakers is good. Helps us all. I am planning to buy one of the CVA Beraga barrels for my Encore to check out. If the quality is there, I may buy others.

Bottom line here is that you don't hear me bashing the less expensive guns. Most of them are safe and dependable. A person should be proud of what they choose, not try to bring other products down because either they wouldn't or couldn't afford them.

Hank

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Hank, in fairness to bowhunterjohn, I don't think his intention was to bash the Encore. I can certainly understand how you can take issue with the comparison of a $100 CVA to the Encore. The Encore costs more and never seems to go on sale, and has good resale value not just for the fact it is an accurate shooter, but also for qualities it possesses thatthe $100 CVA doesn't.

Even so, the question is valid. What really is the difference? How much is the difference costing? And is it worththat muchto me? I agree that a person should buy as much quality as they can afford and you have never read a post where I discouraged anyone from purchasing a T/C product, for any reason,but certain would neveron account of its cost or quality. I actually intended to purchase a T/C this year but it just didn't work out and when the SS Apex went on sale for 55% off, dang, I was compelled to try it. Once I tried it, the value was so compelling that I tried to buy another.

I really meant it when I said that it its not clear what the differences are. There is alot of heresay, prejudice, and downright unmeaningful misinformation floating around which prohibits sensible analysis of cost vs. benefit/value. What is best for everyone is to understand, if its even possible, the qualities each make and model generally possess and what one must pay for them. For example one could look at the following value additions:

Accuracy/precision at differing ranges

Load flexibility.

Bore consistency / trigger characteristics

Durability and service or warranty resulting from wear and use

Form, fit, comfort

Quality of customer service

Status (even this is something someone must pay for whether he likes it or not)

Its not until some sense of this is forthcoming, that we will ever get a sense of the answer to the question bowhunterjohn posed. But knowing these answers, and more importantly,letting manufactures understand we know the answers can not help but to improve, energize innovation, and improvethe overall quality in the rifles we are offered.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

The only one who can decide if the cost between the different kind ofrifles is worth it, is the consumer. I really see no argument at all in this discussion. It boils down to, if I feel the Thompson Center line of rifles with their favorable aspects suit my needs better then a BPI which might very well preform as well.. then I open my wallet and purchase what I want.

The best thing about forums like these are, people do own different rifles. And I have noticed the owners of the different rifles seem very honest in their evaluation of the rifles they shoot. If there is something they do not like, they are more then willing to tell you. If there is something they feel the rifle does exceptionally well, then again, they like to brag that up... as they should.

When judging whether one rifle is worth more then another.. open your ears and mind. Read the posts on the rifles that interest you, ask questions of the poster, try and handle a rifle you like, and then decide for yourself. After all, I am not going to buy your rifle for you. You are, so know what your buying before you buy.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

based on off the huntsman. Not the sidekick oops.

Additionally, the ramrod on the CVA is big step up from the Encore's painful factory rod. However, this gun is in no way related to the Encore. The action is virtually identical to the Harrington and Richardson "Topper" shotgun, and is better described as an H&R "Huntsman" with an Encore style stock. Take the forearm off, and the barrel falls to the ground. Even the telescoping ramrod is "borrowed" from the H &R Huntsman.

Either way the only design near the encore is the stock. chuckhawks.com and we all know randy is never wrong.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

For me it is a matter of personal safety. i should have recognized that years ago when i found out that CVA (now BPI) muzzleloaders are "proofed" at 10,000 psi. Testing by Lyman has shown that shooting 120 grains of granular Pyrodex in an M/L can easliy exceed 25,000 psi. That is why my Staghorn is limited to 80 grains of granular Pyrodex and the Mag Hunter limited to 100 grains. Can CVA guns be accurate? Yes. Are they safe with heavy loads? For me the answer is maybe. Maybe is just not good enough.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

I guess you better ooops again.
The sidekick came out after the Optima too.

I don't know what you are talking about on the Ramrod for the Encore. All the ones I have seen look to be aircraft aluminum and very sturdy. The end is open and you need to get one of the handles to screw on, but once you go there, I would put that rod up against any from any other gun. Not any better, pretty much all the same.

Everyone here knows that the basic action of the Optima is similar to the H&R guns. But, the reason they went that way is because it is a good design, less moving parts, probably cheaper to make and is easier to copy. The actual mechanical stuff aside, the gun is a copy of an Encore, just like the new model that can use rifle barrels. As far as the cheap telescoping rod on the NEF guns,they used that design out of necessity. The barrel lug, as it is designed, makes it impossible to have a full lenght rod. So, they had to improvise and "create" a way to store a ramrod on the NEF. On the Optima, they worked around that.. There is nothing wrong with being a knockoff, that is what is common in the marketplace. Find something that works and copy it. So, yes, the stock is an almost exact copy, the rest is just vaguely similar. Other than the cheap nickle plating. Just because on the inside they copied something else, it is the outside that is what is important. They went after an Encore lookalike, right down to the under trigger action release,and that is exactly what they made, regardless of what is under the hood.

OBW, I like the NEF BP guns. I have one as a spare for guests to use. It shoots very, very well with 240 grain XTPs and 100 grains of 777. Cloverleafs at 50 yards and around an inch and a half at 100. Other than the ramrod and goofy plastic primer holder, I like the gun much better than the Optima.

Hank

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Plsglow, thank you, I asked an honest question, show me where I "bashed" the higher end guns please Hank?

If i was going to bash it I might have stated " why would someone pay 700 bucks for a t/c that shoots worse then my CVA", but I did not now did I.

I asked a real question, as I am looking to purchase a better gun this spring, I had in mind the 29" Cva Optima, T/C Omega or the smokeless Savage M/L.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

John,
I apologize if I jumped the gun on your intent. But, it is often the case that threads start similar to yours with the only intent to bash T/C or other products.

I also apologize if I highjacked your thread.

My humble opinion is that given the choice between the Omega, Optima and Savage, I think I would opt for the stainless Savage first, stainless Encore or Omega second and I would look elsewhere for another option for a stainless gun rather than a nickle plated Optima. If you are sticking w/ blued, then the order is still the same but that the Optima would be third. I just don't think there is much advantage in the nickle plate, at least not as much as stainless.

Hank

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Pic

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

If you were to ask some one who works on a lot of guns some of the answers might suprise you; for one thing the barrel of CVA's is usually the best part of the gun and will shoot with any other brand as far as accuracy is concerned that does NOT mean that they are safe with the same load nor does it mean that they are as problem free as some of the higher quality brands but that does not mean they are junk either it some times comes down to the fact that some can afford to pay more for higher quality and want to.
JUST REMEMBER READ THE MANUL AND DON"T MAKE MISTAKES stay with in the limitations set by the manuel and be more careful about things like double balling and over loading some of the money some of us put out [some do not like to admit this] for TC 's is for the safty factor the stronger barrel gives us because we know if you shoot enough someday you will make a mistake. Lee

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: ahankster

I guess you better ooops again.
The sidekick came out after the Optima too.

I don't know what you are talking about on the Ramrod for the Encore. All the ones I have seen look to be aircraft aluminum and very sturdy. The end is open and you need to get one of the handles to screw on, but once you go there, I would put that rod up against any from any other gun. Not any better, pretty much all the same.

I didnt write that review, i got it right off www.chuckhawks.com , randy's website. The optima looks just like an old shotgun we had, IMO it doesnt even look like an encore at all.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

Here in lies the wisdom, to some degree, its a matter of personal preference. After owning a break action ML, I personally, don't want to own another one. Considering I like to spend alot of time at the range tinkering with this and that, and in general, just like to hear my rifles go BOOM! So I don't like a rifle that takes alot of maintenance at the range. Which is what the NEF does, it takes alot of maintenance. Its filthy around the breech making cleaning necessary as one shoots. The breech plug cruds in from the outstide. Hands get filthy. Clothes. Not to mention having to breath deep clouds of blowback. The experience is so different with and APEX, (and I suspect also with the Optima which has the same breech plug), that I would be astonished if anyone who loves to shoots in extended range sessions as much as I, would tolerate an NEF knowing he had other options.

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

That is sort my progression--Knight Disc, then to a TC Omega (longer barrel, easier cleaning, no Disc which are expensive)and I am in the market for a Savage 10ML Stainless. In each case I am keeping each rifle, 'cause I like it. They both shoot about the same, 3" at 100 yards. I am buying the Savage for the Smokeless, trigger and because the states I hunt in now allow it, last year they didn't. I was also considering the TC Encore Pro hunter, but I didn't want to pay that much for another BP ML, I wanted the smokeless to try it out. I like the Omega, it is a good gun. I can't say a negative about it for a BP gun. I do find that I use the Omega more than the Disc and tend to loan the Disc. The two guns areabout the same price and about the same accuracy.My Omega is back aTC because the trigger won't stay back, not sure of the reason.
Chap Gleason

RE: Honestly whats the difference in the T/C's M/L's over others
 

I like all guns!!:D I really like T/C guns a lot. I just did a count and I own 9 of the things, 11 if you count the extra Encore barrels. I also own 5 imports that are fine guns as well. They are made by BPI or Traditions and shoot fine as the T/C's do.

I say buy what you want and you should be happy no matter the brand. If it fits you and your budget, does what it is suppose to do, and doesn't break. It is a good rifle and what else could you want?

I have never been interested in the Knight rifles or NEF. My son owns a MDM and loves it.

Buy what you want.