Your 50-70 analogy is excellent.
Like I have been saying, about 85 grains of powder for the 295 grain PB is more than enuff. I wonder what happens to the 50-70 shooters bullet if he pumps up the powder charge to 50-150 and puts a humongous hollow point on the end of his bullet? I think the only practical diff between your plains hunter's bullet and the PB is the hardness of the lead. I always thought they were too soft. Others keep telling me they are too brittle. I don't know which it is, I just know the end result.
Being kind of a macho guy myself I understand people wanting to pound their chest and brag about how hot their loads are (funny though, some of the same people cry like a schoolgirl if their sabot is too difficult to load, go figure). But, with a M/Ler there is a point of declining benefits when it comes to too much powder. With my Encore and 250 grain shockwaves, that point appears to be about 110 grains of 777. Maybe with a different bullet I could get a hotter load. But, as long as I use common sense and stay within the limitations of where the gun performs, I get excellent results. If I got caught up in the escallation of "my gun shoots 150 grains of..." " aw man, mine shoots 175 grains of....." and super macho man "heck ya'll are wimps, I shoot 250 grains of ....." I would find that my results would not be nearly so good.
Hank

Pgleasgow,
Yes, I see what you mean now. Sure it will penetrate a deer if it will a bison. Your saying you have to define the hunting situation--the game the yardage etc. OK I buy that.
Thanks Chap

Well this is a bit off the subject but I have noticed several people commenting about how hard it is to load a sabot,their are quite a number of differant thicknesses of petals on a bunch of different sabots so fighting that battle is not only unnecessary but these people would find that when they get the right combination not only will it load very little if any harder than a PB but it will also shoot better and more consistantly. Lee

Right, I am aware of that. I use the Harvester Crush Rib sabot, Cabelas sells them for $5.99 and MidSouth sells them for $4.99. I know MMP now sells a thin EZ load sabot, but I don't know the product number. I like the idea of someone on the forum to buy 4 or 5 different kinds and try them all in your guns. I now also clean between shots even in the field, using either alchol or bore butter. The alchol tends to dry out quickly, so I often forget to moisen them up, but the bore butter is always there and works as general fouling cleaner. I don't know if that is OK for long term care of the firearm, but I know it works for me. I am not saying other should do it either, that is their choice.
Chap Gleason

Having a few good measuring tools and being able to use them accurately could make the whole process easy, for instance with a smooth polished bore of .500 a MMP_HPH24 [a lot of TC's]is perfect with one at .504 -502 [some White's] MMP 12 Now if you happen on to a tight bore say .497 -.498 a Chrush Rib or the new 3p will get yyou where you need to go. Its really has not been that much of a problem for those of use who enjoy experimenting and keep a varity on hand. Lee

i just got thru with cva company that makes the POWERBELT..

THEY AGREE WITH US 100 %..they said to many hunters are pushing the LIGHTER powerbelts at highest velocityand they will not hold together..

they said ONLY use the heaviest bullet you can when you do this or use the new platinum one..or reduce you powder down..

they mostly agree with us and said PLEASE GET WORD OUT TO YOUR FELLOW HUNTERS..

i can only assume they know all about this, that may be why they cameout with the new harder bullet..

i know from years of hunting, we tried hollow point bullets on deer and got terrible results..we stopped them along time ago..jackets on those bullets were harder than powerbelt but we were pushing higher velocity than muzzleloaders..

then came along the IN-LINES,VELOCITY WENT WAY UP..i dont think cva counted on those in-lines to be as high on velocity on muzzleloader..

i think they were judging their bullets on flintlock velocity ,i dont know, just guess or they were trying to get bullet that would SHOOT GREAT..

maybe a little of both..

someone said, why would you use bullet that you should only take a side shot..i agree and said, IF SPROUL WOULD TAKE A SHOT AT A BUCK OTHER THAN SIDE SHOT, I WOULD USE THE HEAVIEST BULLET WITH MEDIUM POWDER OR GO TO MAXI- BALL 370..

deer running, angle, close to dark, brush,flinching, excitement of the big buck,bad eyes,cold,fog,other hunters ,all this adds up to 1 thing, no way i would use light powerbelt at high velocity on deer..under those conditions, i would use the heaviest powerbelt i could that shot good at medium powder charge..

now,say i am siiting in treestand, open field where my shot would be 150 yds,calm deer all broadside shots..i would use the FLATTEST shooting powerbelt i could..

Amen for calling the company and getting the facts out. My brother had trouble with 348G aerotip PB Platimum this past hunting season, it fragmented at 60 yards on a buck, fragments were on the ground along with bone, hide and hair. My theory is that the PB Platimum is just same old PB but with shiny Platimum, instead of copper. However, I have never cut one in 1/2 and compared the copper to the Platimum. Thanks for making the call. Chap Gleason Va

I know some one who uses them for elk. 110 grains of 2f 777. He says both he and his brother shoots and they've both layed elk flat with them. He said in both cases they found the PB fully expanded (like a quarter) on the far side. The vital organs just jelly. He's sold on them, he is also a member here.

I have read on the old Muzzleloaderforum.com when they did inlines that some elk camps outlawed PBs. I don't know which ones in which states, but that is what I recall. I am not saying that they don't kill elk, I am just saying "there elk camps didn't want their hunters shooting with them". I know 3 years ago when I did my research on the Internet I searched for "Power Belt Outlawed" or PowerBelt discouraged from use. I never found a document that said it in the "Camp Code", but it must exist if they felt that strongly about it. If you read what Toby Bridges (author ofmany books and articles on MLing)says about them, I wouldn't say he is a big fan either:

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/feedback.html

This is what he says:

"I have never hidden my feelings for "Power Belt" Bullets. I don't like them. Truth is, I simply don't want to hunt in any state where today's modern muzzleloading hunter is denied the opportunity to hunt with a well designed saboted bullet. And any game department that permits the use of a bullet that performs as poorly as the "Power Belt", but prohibits the use of a saboted bullet like the Barnes TMZ...Precision Rifle "Dead Center" ...Hornady "SST"...and other similar performance-proven bullet designs means that game department is totally in the dark about muzzleloader performance on big game."

"What I don't like about the "Power Belt" Bullet is that they fragment horribly when driven into a big game animal. And there are several hundred of you who visit this site that I don't have to tell that to...you've already shared with me your experiences with these bullets...and they are basically the same as what I have experienced. I can remember one big doe I took with the 295-grain "Power Belt" a couple of years back. The deer walked out into the field about 70 yards away. I was taking the deer for a friend who wanted one for the freezer, and decided to wait until the old doe was perfectly broadside, placing the shot just a bit back from the shoulder. I figured the big bullet would punch through the rib cage, take out both lungs, then probably punch out the other side - eliminating as much meat loss as possible."[/align]


[/align]

[/align]The deer cooperated and stood perfectly square to my stand. The rifle and load hit exactly where I wanted. And the deer dropped where it stood. Great performance? Hardly! That bullet had literally exploded before ever getting into the lungs. And fragments, some fairly large, found their way into the backstrap and opposite shoulder. When that deer was skinned, nearly 1/4th of all edible meat was a total loss. And the largest piece of the bullet recovered weighed no more than 40 grains. And I have heard of similar bullet failure from many HPML viewers."
[/align]
So I am not alone in these fragmentation issues. I hope that helps balance the thinking on PBs for elk. There are better bullets in my mind. Toby mentions them in his article.
Chap Gleason

You knowchap, I've hunted with GP 385 conicals for a number of years. I have a couple of friends who hunt with them also for elk. I've charged as high as 90 grains 2f BP with them. Talk about a balance between expansion and penetration. MyGod these things knock the crap out of deer. My friends say they do the same on elk, a very popular bullet here in colorado. Frontier gander hit a 130 lb doe with one. Busted right through the scapula and lodged on the far side (80 grains the charge). I've also shot alot of maxiballs made with dental xray lead. Just punches a hole right through a deer without hardly any expansion. Expansion isn't required, but if you saw the golf ball sized exit wounds that a 385 GP conical makes in deerand watch the incredible BOOM! FLOP you get with them, you may change your mind. There islittle difference between a 348 PB and a 385, they both have generous hollowpoints. Evidently your brother poorly placed it because the "typical" experience isn't what happened to your brother.

Using no more than 80 to 90 grains, I personally think nothing is going to smack a deerany harder than a 348 or heavier full lead conical, especially one with a hollow point. A person needs to place them just like he should, like he would ANY bullet. FYI, I'm not fond of the philosopy that a bullet is going to correct a missplaced shot, or of taking less than ideal shots because you "trust" the bullet. I say, if the conditions are not favorable, pass on it, or get closer, hell, hunt, that's want hunting is, don't be an idiot and gut shoot a hapless deer in a 10 mph crosswind.

I'm gonna tell you the mistake you are making Chap. You are trying to get everyone else to cater to your whimto accomplishwhatever is motivating you. Changing yourself is sufficient. Its still the all or none and there isn'tany responsibility you or your brother will share in wounding those deer.It's always gonna be the Powerbelts fault and ifits the lastthing you do, you aregonna make thempay for your lack of understandingofhow tohunt with them.

I personally wouldn't choose a 348 PB for elk. But it illustrates perfectly to me, that there is no guarantee you brother or you would have harvestedthe deer you wounded using a different bullet. I know what they are capable of, and I trust the comments of someone who successfully hunts with them more than one who is unsuccessful. Primarily because, the one who is unsuccessful, is completely, utterly, and totally responsible for the outcome.