Remington Genesis
 

I was wondering what the scoop is on the Remington Genesis. Is it made better than a Traditions? Will it shoot as well as my Omega?

RE: Remington Genesis
 

BobD

Can not give you direct answers... but every one of the things that I have read from the owners has been positive... even over on the White Muzzleloader board those guys that don't like anything but Whites are putting up positive marks for the Genesis... I almost bought one when they first come out but I let UC kinda talk me out of it now he is thinking about getting one... He really didn't talk me out of it but is easy to blame him for not buying and then I blam cayugad for buying - it is never my fault.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

I just got one is September. Also own an Omega and a Black Diamond. I like the Genesis. Real simple design. Nice balance. Good groups. You might check the archives from back in late September. Quite a bit of info there . . . .

RE: Remington Genesis
 

SL, yes - it is my fault. ;):D

And I did buy that stainless one that was for sale here. Should be here by Monday at the latest.

Now I'm trying to figure out the best mounting system for a scope... and you know what a grueling process that can be for me. [:-]

The main complaint I've read about on the Genesis is the trigger is too heavy. I'm going to take a look at what can be done to alleviate that problem. The rifling is also deep cut so may not be very effective with conicals - and the ez-load (QLA-style) barrel may also pose a problem. If so, a chunk of the barrel may disappear. :)

RE: Remington Genesis
 

UC

I am really surprised that the barrel is deep cut! The other spanish Adressa barrels aren't. I am going to wait for you to look at it. I will be surprised if you are not able to lighten the trigger up. I just do not want to even think about maybe getting another Remington - I really like the two that have and all the rest of the inlines I have I do not need another one... but, I got tell you I was really surprised that so many souls over on DWBS were giving positive comments....

I am not even going to bring up the search for scope hardware....

Why would deep cut effect conicals that much? - the old CVA side locks that i had/have were deep cut they shot conicals...????

mike

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Pretty much everything is UC's fault, that is for sure! :D

Once you find that "best mounting system for a scope", let me know, I might make ya a good deal on it. ;)

And SL, just wait on the Genesis, because UC'll have one for sale soon.

I know, "Shuddup".

RE: Remington Genesis
 

cascadedad

glen you do not know how close I came to writing that in - "when you get done with it let me know..." I am not buying another ML - well it would have to be an exceptional deal... for me not them.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

I know exactly what that means...............you'll be getting another right after Christmas. Then you'll get the stuffing knocked out of you by your wife, same as with the scopes. :D:D:D

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Why? U ax me why?

Conicals must obturate to form a full gas seal and do so consistently in order to be accurate. The deeper the grooves, the more likely a seal will either not be formed properlyor be blown during its course of travel through the bore. Cupped-base conicals would probably tend to do better in such barrels than the solid base boolits we generally shoot (in Whites). That is my understanding of such things - but it may really have more to do with magic. :D :D

I have some PRBullets Ultimate 1 conicals that did very well in my 700ML. I think their design is a little more forgiving of rifling depth than the bore-riding style ofconical typically used in Whites. I'll first have to determine bore dimensions to see if any of my ~.504 stuff even has a chance - if not, I'll bring the Ultimate 1s to the line.

At the rate I've been getting things done lately, don't look for any rapid revelations. [:o]

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Meant to add that this is how it will look after I've tinkered with it..


;) ;) ;)

just kidding guys.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

I will be interested to see Underclocked range results and in the field impressions of the rifle. Roskoe has some real good comments about the rifle. If they are supported by Underclocked, this could be a good rifle to recommend.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Be careful tinkering with this trigger. The same spring that controls the hammer also provides resistance against the trigger/sear. Anything you do to reduce the trigger spring tension is going to lighten the hammer fall. I left the spring alone and played around with the sear angles and engagement depth. This was fairly touchy stuff.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Will do Roskoe. What you did was pretty much my plan of attack. Were you able to improve your trigger pull?

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Mine is here - so first impressions:

Genesis Revelations

Got my slightly used Genesis by mail today. The box felt so amazingly light that I wondered if there was a rifle in there. A guy gets used to the way Whites are usually shipped and those other boxes just get lighter. ;)

The rifle certainly has a modern appearance! The receiver area is a bit hard to describe but is a near-gloss black and slick looking finish over some sort of very lightweight alloy. The stainless steel barrel is matte finished and outwardly looks much like any other stainless muzzy barrel. The two piece stock on my sample is a plain black synthetic with what appear to be permanently affixed inserts(?) to provide grip at both sides of the forearm and pistol grip. Without destroying them, it would be hard to say just how those inserts (if they are inserts rather than appliqués) are installed. They are reasonably attractive in a grayish color that has a leathery grain and rubbery feel. The stock should be easy to grip even in wet weather. The buttstock is hollow and will benefit greatly from a stuffing of packing foam. It wears a rubber recoil pad that is somewhat poorly fitted but should be at least functional. The rifle weighs 7 pounds 3 ounces on my ofishul DFK scales. :D (actually fish scales)

The barrel has decent sights attached... fiber optic front that is superior to the one provided on Whites in that it has 3 metal retaining bands around the brittle red fiber stick. Should be much more resistant to breakage and is very comparable to the fronts used on some TC rifles. It appears to be a single unit (rather than ramp and insert) that is held in place by a single, unhidden screw. The rear sight is an abbreviated ramp which would not appear to offer a great deal of adjustment but, if of proper height, would not be a problem. The ramp has the typical adjustment mechanisms incorporated. The rear has a small green fiber optic in a short U-shape which forms two green dots, one to either side of the shallow U cut of the actual sight. Were I able to use open sights, these would do nicely and are superior to those found on many others. The barrel is also drilled and tapped and will accept mounts made for CVA round barrels or the Traditions Yukon. The Traditions website is now offering mounts and other supplies for the Genesis.

The barrel measures exactly 28" from one end to the other, 26.5" ahead of the breechplug, and 26" if both the plug and the ~.5" of non-rifled section at the muzzle are subtracted. I suppose that is intended as an easy loading feature. At least that non-rifled section is shorter than most that use such "innovations". The rifling, while much deeper than on a White, is not as deep as I had expected and looks to be 8 quite nicely done pairs of lands and grooves. Per a quick slugging with a .504 diameter bullet, it looked like the micrometer indicated .501 for a land to land measure. The bullet was insufficient diameter to get the groove to groove measurement. I will have to take more time later to properly slug the bore. I do not like easy load (or QLA) barrels as those unrifled sections of bores can havesubstantial negative impact on accuracy if not done near perfectly. Such designs also make it difficult to examine the crown area to see whether it is distorted in some way. But we'll see. :eek:

The barrel wears two thimbles for ramrod retention. The thimbles are significantly thicker walled than most and appear to be of some synthetic closely matching the action finish. They are not so bulky as to be unsightly and function well. The ramrod is of black anodized tubular aluminum of insufficient length due to the length of the barrel underlug. An attempt to provide additional length was made by including a roughly 4" long section at the end which must be completely unscrewed, then reversed and screwed on to the now exposed thinner section it covered. Even with that extension, the rod is not full length. It is poorly done, IMHO, and the ramrod found on the CVA Optima would be a marked improvement. I might just get an Optima rod if I keep the Genesis long term.

The rifle points and comes to the shoulder nicely. The stock's dimensions are obviously proportioned for scope use as natural alignment for me is above the iron sights considerably. Those that choosethe provided sights may experience some difficulty in that regard. The action cam appears to need a bit more than 3/8" clearance beneath any scope to operate freely so it would seem choosing HIGH rings would be the correct choice both for that consideration and stock fit.

So far, so good (with some few minor exceptions a very satisfactory rifle). Now... the action. The best single descriptive word I can think of is spongy. The action feels spongy. The torch cam is not quite that, but does not seem to lock as positively as I would prefer nor does it seem to have any built-in compensation for wear of the locking feature. That may or may not prove a problem but it seems to me it would develop into a severe one after sufficient use and wear. At what point that might occur... who knows? Surely the once-a-year shooter/hunter would never have a problem but for someone that does a lot of shooting at the range, or someone that gets hung up on cycling that cam :D , I think it would cause issues.

The trigger-hammer assembly contains the real sponge. It's very simple in design with only the trigger, the hammer, two springs, and a trigger blocking button-safety contained in a synthetic housing that removes from the rifle via one hex-head screw. The entire assembly is very lightweight. More attention should have been given to feel and function of the hammer and trigger. The trigger pull on my specimen has a pull weight between 5 and 6 pounds and is not all clean nor crisp. Some sensation of creep is evident most all the time and even after the trigger releases, the rattle-trap sensation of sloppy tolerances and far too much motion is evident. The hammer cocks in a much longer arc than most, and feels "spongy" in doing so. Operation also does not seem totally consistent from cycle to cycle. I will have to take a further look at what might be done to improve that assembly. I have already had it apart and back together (easy disassembly/assembly) but have made no changes as yet. If anything, I believe the operation of the assembly would be improved by replacing the provided hammer spring (the one that drives it forward) with a heavier spring. Using a better alloy for both the hammer and trigger, one with more substance and weight, would surely give a better feel and a much better trigger function. There may be some benefit in adding spacers also.

That's as far as I've got with it. I do not believe the rifle is worth anywhere near the suggested retail price and anyone that pays that much for a Genesis is paying far too much. The rifle does have some good points and may prove to be a real shooter, but with the substantial negative of a poorly done trigger I find that very unlikely. [:-]

RE: Remington Genesis
 

UC,

Great review. Looking forward to hearing how she shoots.

About your ramrod. Check to see if it is extendable. I just discovered the one in my Apex is. The jag end on mine is extends by twisting counter clockwise . . . I think.

Also, I am kind of thinking that the stainless Genesis and the stainless Apex barrelsare similar. First, the QLA in the Apex is a little bigger than the groove diameter. Seems to be of constant diameter though until its final rise into the rifling. Is the Genesis QLA of similar design? And BTW, thanks for the slugging info. (Also, damcl was asking the proper procedure for slugging)

One other thing. Are the lands of your Genesis narrower than the grooves?

RE: Remington Genesis
 

UC

Thank you for your initial assessment - makes me feel a whole lot better and now really makes room for the Savage 93R17-BV I am after for Christmas...

RE: Remington Genesis
 

The ramrod is only extended by the method described, unscrew 4" section, reverse and screw back on thinner internal part. The rifling groove to land ratio looks 1:1 to my eyes but... :eek:

SL, I was right back then. :D Don't know why I'm so happy about that.

Must say the Tyler Bormann is a great guy to do business with (and probably otherwise).

RE: Remington Genesis
 

I'd bet the ramrod is quite similar to the Apex rod.

The width of the grooves in the Apex were probably twice the width of the lands. If yourGenesis barrelwere rifled that way, you couldn't miss it.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Very detailed review. I agree with comments about the ramrod. I have a Dewey rod I use for everything except reloading in the hunting field, so the factory ramrod wasn't much of issue. But it is a little short. I liked the tight manner in which it fit into the stock, with no rattles.

The "lock up" of the torch cam breech block on mine is tight enough to where I'm not worried it will hinge open in the field. But I thought about the detent and how time would probably cause this device to loosen up. Looks like you could just deepen the detent at some point in the future if this became an issue.

Trigger on mine was very clean and broke at about 4.5 lbs right out of the box. Later, I decided to stone the surfaces to a very smooth finish and the trigger got lighter - but it also developed a bunch of creep. It took me the better part of half a day to get rid of the creep. The design of the trigger is not one bit condusive to trigger modifications. I'm still thinking about isolating the hammer spring from the trigger spring. With this feature, the trigger pull could be adjusted to a very light pull.

I got rid of the rear sight right away and replaced it with a Williams WGRS peep sight. Also put a green fiber optic rod in the front.

Bottom line is that accuracy and function on mine was very good. I also have an Omega. For $50 less money, I though the Genesis was a pretty good value.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Just trying to describe what I see Roskoe. The Genesis trigger designhas been outdone in the past on toy cap pistols. :D But the proof is in the shooting and if she does a good job there that will be a major plus. Probably be awhile before I get to that point.

And I still think a HEAVIER hammer spring would help, bothwith the creep and the pull consistency.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

The heavier spring will no doubt make the pull heavier, butwould also very likely reduce the creep. If I wasn't already so busy, I'd have half a notion to put together a redesign of the Genesis trigger. Maybe market it through Brownell's. These type of guns have really simple triggers - compared to a something like a semi-auto. Maybe something like a replacement hammer and trigger, with independent springs and a set screw to control sear engagement.

My Black Diamonds, for all their design shortcomings, have great triggers.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Okay, I won't bore you any more than usual with a grat big ol picture ;)but I just improved the trigger on my Genesis about a zillion %

http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2004552887929817754

The pic shows what I did, but it might be something only a few should try. So if you try it, you are on your own. There is one very minor drawback to what I did but it in no way affects function. It could also be avoided by doing part of this a bit differently. The honing of sear surfaces did very little - it was the other experiments that worked for me.

Trigger breaks much, much cleaner and could even be called crisp. It is also considerably lighter in pull weight and the rattle trap sounds are GONE!. What I did is so simple that I wonder why it wasn't done to begin with - and that worries me just a little.I went into the garage afterwardsand fired off 10 mixed primers, both CCI and Win209, without failure. I do believe the hammer now strikes faster and just a wee bit harder.

All of a sudden, this rifle seems a whole lot better! :D

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Awesome! So when you gonna shoot her UC?

RE: Remington Genesis
 

I'll have to get some appropriately sized bullets or get a .501 sizer ordered in. Have some LEE REALS but I'll probably wait until I have some other conicals ready to go. I've got some sabot stuff I could shoot now - but that aint my thang. :D

ps: I also do not yet have scope mounts - no point in me trying the irons, wouldn't be fair to the rifle. :eek:

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Interesting approach to problem solving this little mousetrap. Did you heat up the hammer spring to put such a severe bend in it, or did you just grab it with the pliers and go? Obviously, anything you can do with springs sure beats doing what I did - particularly in case you need toreverse it. My deal was frustrating - took all morning and involved re-heat treating the parts after I finally got there. What sort of final pull weight did you get? Roskoe

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Roskoe, I don't have a very reliable trigger gauge but the gauge I have indicates 2.2 to 2.4 lbs on several consecutive pulls. By my calibrated finger ;)measure -I think closer to a full 3 lbs. And I just grabbed two pair of needle nose and went after it. Got exciting when the larger spring flew out of the pliersand hit me in the chest once. I considered using heat but didn't know if I would be able to control that well enough. The bend was made in a non-critical part of the spring so even if it broke as I did the bending it would have still been functional. The picture I posted is not a real pic of the final result, I just doctored that original to show where I made the bends. It is a close representation of the bend around the hammer, but exaggerates the bend I made on the return spring.

The return spring bend is the one I would do differently if I had another. It does just what I intended but you've probably noticed that both legs of that spring fit into a cutout on the side of the hammer. The bend I made relieves most of the pressure exerted against the lower part of that cut on thehammer when it is uncocked - the result of that is the hammer is a bit "floppy" in the forward direction but it isn't serious at all. I much prefer that to the terrible trigger I had.

I've read how to make custom torsion springs but would probably hurt myself if I tried it. :D

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Resurrection...

I FINALLY shot the Genesis. No accuracy results though - ran into a problem.

At first thought things were fine. Started shooting some LEE improvedMinie conicals (altered base cup) that weigh just shy of 400 grains. Was shooting 65 grains (by weight) of T7 FFg in vials remaining from last fall. Used CCI 209 primers just for that halibut and that may have been a very big mistake. The LEE Minies had been sized to .501 and only took a bit of palm pressure to start, then slid down the bore almost too easily. At 25 yards the first shots tracked nicely and I was able to get the scope adjusted at that range with 4 bullets.

Moved the target box out to 100 and tried some PowerPunch conicals. These took just a wee bit more palm pressure to start (must have been .503 size) but then went down the bore just as easily as the Minies. My first shot with those at 100 was about 4" dead low of the bullseye - just about where I figured it would be. I don't know the weight of those PowerPunch bullets as I've not bothered to weigh them, but I knew they were considerably heavier than the Minies. I had a weak load next - might have been contaminated powder or just a short measure - and it was lower still.

Started tweaking the scope adjustments again and brought the impact to about even with bull on the horizontal but the next shot went left about 4 inches. Fired again and hit right. That's okay though, what's now bothering me is that it is getting more difficult with each shot to open the "action". Two more shots and I could no longer open the pivoting action. Done.

There was a light deposit of residue on the bottom of the scope over the action but it was of no real consequence. Others have claimed none of that encountered with their Genesis so that might be just this particular rifle. Cleanup was fairly easy and there were no problems noted during that process.

The rifle handles recoil from the big conicals exceptionally well and would very probably shoot well with a bit of experimentation. I have a feeling sabots might perform much better from the riflebut they're not for me. Benefit would surely be had from re-doing the internal crown as the rifling seems to end at an almost 90° angle. Thatwould eliminate overcoming the sharp hump and allow conicals to load more evenly (AND sabots - this really needs doing - a little hard to figure out how to accomplish itwithout a lathe). Primers were erratic so far as their removal - one would come out very easily while the next required some prying. Blowback was the reason for the action locking up, perhaps wiping out the action every 3 or 4 shots would prevent that from happening. A replacment breech plug and/or better fitting primer might alleviate some of that blowback as well.

I will say my trigger work paid off as the trigger broke very cleanly and there was no perceived delay in ignitionat any time. May yet do a bitmore tweaking using different primers and loads - as well as perhaps giving those Lee Minies a bit more of an effort.

Don't know if I want to mess with further experimentation though - have other rifles that need shooting ..... :)

RE: Remington Genesis
 

;)

RE: Remington Genesis
 

u lookun ta buy, Cdad? ;)

RE: Remington Genesis
 

I don't have any money, I have to send it all to Tom for triggers. May not ever be able to get those triggers again, you know? I bought one from Doc a few months ago for about $50. I'm figgurin one day, I might be able to sell one back to him for twice that much. :D

I just wanted to give conicaloader a headsup on yer Genesis. :)

RE: Remington Genesis
 

cascadedad

He has already got it for sale... but I am not interested - I believed him in the first place when he said not to waste your time... but you know UC he just can't help himself he has to try to make everything better.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Well... I sorta became Dr. Denali over at DWBs in the interest of science ;) but my need to experiment and tinker has decayed to near zero lately. I was going to shoot for Dr. Genesis but one doctorate is enough.

Besides, Doc White already did what needed doing.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Unfortunately, Doc left the job unfinished. If he had finished it, there would still be U-M's for sale at Sportsman's Warehouse and they wouldn't be $299.Triggers would be a lot easier to get also. :D

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Underclocked - When I shot your genesis I used the triple 7 primers (with triple 7 powder). I did notice that with each shot the action got tighter, but it never got to the point that I couldnt open or close it.

I would recommend trying some different primers, or like you mentioned, wiping off the blowback from the action every few shots.

Also, I had the best accuracy results with 250 gr. shockwaves. I also shot some TC maxiballs, but they shot erratically. I was using 2 T7 pellets.

Good Luck.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

i find cci primers the best for not giving off a lot of fouling. even the federals im using right now give a touch more fouling but not as bad as the remingtons i tried. Gotta love muzzleloading and all the fun of trying new stuff that helps you out.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

Newbie Question for Sabotloader: In one of your earlier posts in this thread, you said:

"every one of the things that I have read from the owners has been positive... even over on the White Muzzleloader board those guys that don't like anything but Whites are putting up positive marks for the Genesis..."

After I read your post, I tried to find the White Muzzleloader board. But, I couldn't find it. How do I get to it? Thanks in advance.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

DWB forums are at http://dwbs.proboards28.com/index.cgihowever you have to be an activated member to read the posts there. We are a bunch of wild and crazy guys and do not want to offend anyone with our sometimes borderline behavior :D.


I think I've figured out what they need to change in the design to eliminate the increasingly difficult Torch-Cam operation - but it's way beyond my abilities to do such a change even though it would have been simple if done originally. :) Also, the aluminum rod that goes through the torch-cam to hold it in place needs to be just a bit bigger aroundto provide a more snug fit to the barrel - and I may experiment with that a little.

Could be the heavy conicals create more blowback than you observed with the lighter bullets. Those PowerPunches weigh about 500 grains and 65 grains (weighed) is PLENTY of T7 behind that bullet. And I do think the primer choice made a difference - not a positive one. I think most of the blowback was definitely routed through the primer pocket as the grease I had put on the plug was barely dirty toward the nose-end threads. Seems I recall the CCI 209s are just a bit smaller diameter than Winchesters. Might have to give them a trysome year. ;)

The rifle does handle recoil very well.

Should have shot it long before but weather had not cooperated ATALL and I'm getting far too lazy! :D My next outing will be with a White that I have yet to shoot... beyond that I don't know.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

take1a

That was the early case - then one of the Head Chief's @DWB's bought one and gave it a very long look... it did not turn out to be as positive as first anticipated. I do not think UC is saying that it is a bad gun even right now but - as he first believed it was not the gun that he/we hoped that it might be. Myself, I took his forst impression and went another direction. I was leaning towards the the new Remington because of the positive experiance I have with my two Remington 700ML's.

RE: Remington Genesis
 

RE: Remington Genesis
 

shuddup RC! ;)