Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading, other sponsors also reconsidering.

"In the past we allowed Mr. Bridges to test our traditional ML rifles as well as our in-line ML rifles and he had our cooperation and limited sponsorship. Due to the new path Mr. Bridges has taken , in which traditional muzzle loading rifles would no longer have their current exclusive hunting period and in which in-line rifles would hunt at the same time as the traditional rifles, we have withdrawn our former support and sponsorship of Toby Bridges.
The Davide Pedersoli company has advised Mr. Toby Bridges to remove our company name from any list of sponsors who support his lobbying efforts because even though we manufacture in-line muzzle loading rifles, we strongly support the use of traditional types of flintlock and percussion lock rifles during hunting periods assigned to muzzle loading rifles.
We always believed that the hunting with muzzleloading guns, both traditional and modern black powder in-line rifles, could co-exist, even if two different muzzleloading hunting seasons would be more required. Certainly we never thought they could get into conflict with each other.
We regret Toby Bridge's decision which surprised us, considering that in the past he took important positions, which we could share, but absolutely not his last one.
The use of traditional muzzleloading rifles for hunting has all the historical, political and rational reasons to continue and to expand and cannot be forced to die, as Toby Bridges warns and predicts (and is trying to make happen) nor can be the enthusiasm and will of people who are dedicated to this traditional sector be disregarded. On the contrary, the traditional muzzle loading guns contributed surely much more than the modern in-line muzzleloading guns have to the muzzle loading hunting being accepted in our states. Rather than trying to promote the in-line rifles and push aside the exclusive hunting season for traditional percussion or flintlock rifles we should all be working to strengthen the separation of hunting seasons for archers, traditional muzzle loading rifles, the powerful in-line rifles and of course the modern cartridge rifles.

The in-line rifles are closer to the modern high power cartridge rifles and we hope that all government officials involved with making or changing hunting rules will recognize the big difference in power and range which in-line rifles (which use conical bullets) have over the traditional antique or replica rifles which use round ball bullets. Both archery hunters and traditional muzzle loading rifle hunters accept the great challenge and limitation of their hunting weapons, the need to stalk the game and get very close in order to make a clean killing shot. For the in-line rifle and modern cartridge rifle hunters a much different challenge is presented and the mixing of traditional and in-line rifles in the field at the same time would be unacceptable to the vast majority of traditional muzzle loading rifle users.
I read the letter Toby Bridges published in his web site in which he explained he has been misunderstood. I acknowledge his effort, however this letter gives me the opportunity to contradict Toby about the in-line rifles being the natural modern evolution of the muzzleloading guns.
The real modern aspect was when many years ago some of the American states opened the hunting season to the muzzleloading guns. This was a modernity sign! What happened later with the introduction of the in-line rifles and the continuous improvements to reach high performances, such as the use of pelletized substitute powder, waterproof ignition systems or sabot bullets, etc. made the modern muzzloading guns get closer to the modern cartridge gun performance. I am convinced that most of the hunters using in-line rifles are only taking advantage of this enhanced performance in a dedicated muzzleloading hunting season. I am also convinced that if the muzzleloading hunting season becomes an "open hunting season", several of the users of the in-line rifles will drop their rifles to hunt only with the modern ones.
I have to say that I am fond of the hunt in all its aspects, I am a hunter with modern guns, with cartridge guns, with muzzleloading traditional guns and with in-line rifles.
Davide Pedersoli is not against the modern in-line rifle hunting, which we consider as an alternative and different activity from the one with traditional guns . Without doubt, hunting with traditional guns must be protected and sustained in the spirit of the rules approved in many of the American states because it gives the American sportsman a hunting challenge and emotional satisfaction which no other type of gun can give."

Pierangelo Pedersoli, President
Davide Pedersoli & C.
Via Artigiani 57
I-25063 Gardone Valtrompia (Brescia) Italy
ph.030 8915000 fax 030 8911019
www.davide-pedersoli.com

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

So the guy is trying to have the federal government tell your fish and game dept it needs to follow his guidelines? Screw him. Let the states set their own rules, they know best how to manage their game.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

While it is the right of Pedersolli to drop support of Toby Bridges, I have to agree with Pittsburghunter. The States determines what type of muzzleloader season and restrictions best serve their State. We should let them implement that.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Cay, not sure I understand your point...the two posts are not mutually exclusive...Pitts is in agreementwith the Pedersoli position

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

A modern inline is certainly an improvement over a trad cap and ball or flinter , but it's no match for a modern centerfire rifle , and is just as certainly no reason for trads and inlines to have separate seasons . They're both front loaders and should share the woods equally . I shoot a recurve too , but I would'nt rule out owning a compound some day either . Pedersoli is running the very real risk of alienating the largest ML market going with their silly rhetoric , you can't manufacture inlines and simutaneously run them down without losing credibility . That which does not adapt shall surely die , this is just as true for guns as it is for life itself , evolve or become extinct .

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

What I am saying is Pedersolli is in their full rights IMO to feel and do what they did to Mr. Bridges. Personally I do not agree with all the points Pedersolli makes, but that is simply my personal opinion and I feel no need to go further into that.

As for Pittsburghunter, , Ifeel the games laws which effect our State should be determinedby that State.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

I agree with Cayugad and I hunt with both types of muzzleloaders as well as centerfire rifles. In Arizona we only specify muzzleloader and no nitrocellulous powder. Personally I don't believe my Omega is that superior in performance over my Thompson Center Hawken especially when many of the conicals and sabot/bullet combinations shoot just as well or very close. If someone (any state that decides to) specify that it must be a round ball and like in Pennsylvania even limit to flintlock; that is their choice. To make a general decision like the Pendersoli president is trying to do that inline muzzleloaders are close to centerfire rifles apparently has not shot a lot of centerfire rifles. My 7X57 Mauser (which by the way is very close historically to blackpowder when it was born) is vastly superior in performance to any of my muzzleloaders and not in the same class by any comparison. I think Mr Pedersoli should stick to making great guns and stay out of the states rule making.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Bravo to Pedersoli, not only do I like their stance on this issue,but I also like their guns. Mr. Pedersoli worded his letter well and it took both courage and conviction to do so.

"Let the states decide": sure, each state has it's own circumstances when it come to deer management, but why use the ML'r season to manage the heard. Want more deer killed, open up the limits during gun season, the orange army would be happy to oblige. Using ML'r season to manage the heard is just what Mr. Pedersoli alluded to, just another season to wack more deer.

"Inlines are not the same as centerfires": I'll wager that many of us started our deer hunting with a cartridge like the 30-30, many inlines easily come close to it's velocity and exceed it's energy, the newer ones top both. Then you have the smokelessSavage....

It's refreshing to see a manufacturer stand up and be counted, even more so that they are on an unpopular side of the issue...

Doug

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

The other view that Toby Bridges has is he wants to ban the use of the patched round ball, and he over exaggerates the effectiveness of the round ball. After corresponding with him through email, he tries to make you believe the patched round ball is totally in capable of ethically & quickly harvesting game with it. This in spite of the fact that the round ball has probably taken more game than any other projectile in history.

Most people that I know who hunt with a PRB will limit themselves to 50 yard shots, and this is clearly within the PRB effective kill zone, but because Toby wants to take 200 yard shots with a ML he wants people to believe the PRB is totally ineffective and is unable to harvest game even within the limits of the projectile.

If you research his writings you will see that he used to brag about the effectiveness of the PRB, but now he's calling it obselete, and wants us to believe it is unable to harvest game, a complete 180 turn in his writings and beliefs.

He is for an outright ban of the PRB which would wipe out traditional muzzleloader hunting.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

The motivation for Pedersoli's positioning is obvious, isn't it? Their bread and butter has been the traditional style rifles for a very long time, only recently had they introduced the more "modern" inlines and without much success in that endeavor as best I can tell (my own specimen of one of their inlines was pathetic at best). They are simply protecting their own financial interests in a cloud of righteousness.

As to their removing sponsorship of Bridges, can't say I blame them.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

I have to agree with UC... Pedersoli's attempts at the inline market have been pathetic. The only positive voice for them was Toby... The bulk of Pedersoli's sales is the trad market. So don't ascribe some righteous traditional views to Pedersoli... they made this move for strictly financial reasons.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Personally I agree with Perdersolli's view point. The majority of states that implemented muzzleloading seasons did so prior to the newer inline offerings.
IMHO the inlines bastardized muzzleloading, taking away from what it was intended to be. It represents a short-cut for those to lazy or unwilling to invest the time or recognize the limitations of the more traditional muzzleloader. It's right up there with decoys IMHO.
If a person wanted to use an inline they always have the option to use it regular hunting season but they chose not to.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

I believe Underclocked is correct - Pedersoli is looking to their own interests. They'd love for muzzleloading season to be restricted to side-hammer rifles, because many of us would then have to buy them, in order to continue to hunt. No doubt, Mr. Pedersoli would like for us to buy his rifles.

I hunt entire deer season with an inline, muzzleloading and rifle. Never have taken a shot past 90 yards. I could easily live with conicals instead of sabots; going to PRB means diff rifle with diff twist, which means somebody gets to make money off me.

No thanks, Dave.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

My 30-30 shoots quite a bit flatter than my .50 cal. inline. The energy in the first 100-150 yards is close but beyond that there is no comparison.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

That is just about as ignorant a statement as I have ever read. Obviously you have no clue as to how dedicated true muzzleloaders are... In fact I would say it can harder to tune an inline... why? Because of the multitude of choices there are for projectiles and finding the one that will shoot best with a specific load. It is a major time, $'s, and effort investment. How is a PRB any harder to find a load for then a sabot round? The easiest I have found is a conical shooter...

I do... I use it for both the firearm and ML season here in IL... and this year? Shock, horror, dismay... I will use a Savage 10 MLII.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

[hr]


I was not aware of Mr. Bridge's stance with a patched roundball. Thank you for the information. I will have to do some further reading.

If thoughMr. Bridges feels this informationto really be true, well then I have to be the luckiest hunter on the planet as I have a large number of deer that "thank goodness" have fallen to the"inferior" roundball for me. And might I add very quickly.

Now I will be the first to admit, I would not nor do I endorse the shooting atover 100 yards if at all possible with a roundball to harvest a game animal. Normally I set a 75 yard limit to myself for ball, unless all other things are perfect. Mostly this is a matter of my ability to accuratly place the ball at further distances in the manner I like. I also limit my conical shooting with open sights for the same reason. If I can't see it and place my shot well, then I can't shoot. Plain and simple.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Pedersoli is WAY-OUT-OF-TOUCH-with the American ML-Buying public. Their reference to the integration of inlines & conical-bonding is a perfect exampleshowing this Italian ML company has no clue what the American consumer wants - or is using these days.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Toby's stance that's asking for the lifting of discriminatory practicesthat many state wildlife governing bodies currently practices. These states failto match their traditional-only ML hunting seasonwith a Modern ML-only hunting season.

Why should only one style of ML or component be allowed -- yet the other be entirely shunned? Separating seasons is fine with me. Butstates like Pennsylvania should have a ML season that prohibts traditional flintlocks. Colorado should have a season that prohibits #11 caps and conicals. Now that would erase the present discriminatory practice in Pennsylvania & Colorado.... just to name two states out of several who are not serving it's ML-purchaser requests fairly,

A poster here earlier commented thathefeels the games laws which effecteach state should be determinedby that state. Well..... all 50 Wildlife/DNR governing bodies EXIST TO SERVE IT'S CITIZENS.... so let the American ML hunter decide -- not the other way around!

If a governmental hunting body is going to stay the present course and not show equal rights to what a vast number of ML purchasers in the past decade are buying - in terms of modern components/accessories -then choose to discriminate against such, well that's an indication that the Wildlife/DNR governmental bodies are NOT SERVING IT'S ML-BUYING CITIZENS with a fair shake. Forcing it's citizens to only purchase traditional MLs is like telling their citizens that color TVs will no longer be allowed -- everyone must buy a black & white.

BTW..... Toby Bridges NEVER STATED he wanted a ban on roundball/patch hunting involving what more than 95% of us hunt on this messageboard.... deer or smaller-sized game. Please show me his "ban roundball" quote poster Paco????????

Nothing worse than typing words at this messageboard that are totally incorrect -- without evidence -- without facts -- without quotations.


Thompson Center Arms -- Triple Se7en Powder -- Buffalo Bullet Co.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

[hr]


That would be my statement and I justify it in the following..

I attend someDNR meetings where topics of all nature are discussed. At none of the meetings I have attended (which is limited I admit) have I heard a "hue and cry" to allow scopes on muzzleloaders in ourWISCONSIN muzzleloader season. The current laws governing the use of muzzleloaders IMO are more then fair in WISCONSIN. And I really do not think I need to concern myself with other hunters from other states wanting it their way, so they can come and hunt in my STATE. So in effect you could say the citizens of Wisconsin have made their voice heard and Wisconsin's laws reflect their views. Granted out of state hunting revenue is nice for any State and local economy. But let the STATE determine how their wildlife population should be managed, with granted, input from thatState's citizens.

When I make a decision to hunt in a different state, I might very well base my hunting selection on what laws that state currently enforces during their season. But again, that is the choice of that State to decide those laws, and my decision to spend my hunting dollars where I feel I can get the most for my money. If I want to hunt in a place other then my home State, that say for example, does not allow scopes or the use of sabots. Why should I be allowed to insist that I want to hunt with a scope and I want to shoot sabots when that State does not feel the need to do so? That State has based their laws for a reason. If I disagree with their reasons, then I simply spend my money some where else, or hire a professional to increase the odds of a successful hunt.

Further more the idea of separate muzzleloadingseasons in Wisconsin, I am not too sure I would be in favor of. While it would be of little problem for me to participate in them equipment and skill wise, I just do not see the need for it. If you want to use the traditional rifle or the inline, that is your personal choice. Just do not scope them in Wisconsin. The addition of a new season unfortunately then reacts with other current sports and seasons taking place. There is simply a matter of time restraints. Too many things, too little time.

These are my views.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Quote from above, "A poster here earlier commented thathefeels the games laws which effecteach state should be determinedby that state. Well..... all 50 Wildlife/DNR governing bodies EXIST TO SERVE IT'S CITIZENS.... so let the American ML hunter decide -- not the other way around!

Yes, that certainly is a very well thought out statement. [:'(] Which exact hunter or groupdo you want to decide? Would you like it if I decided for YOU? Probably not, and likewise I don't want you deciding for me. The ideas on what is "right" or "wrong" very greatly. Yes, each state needs to decide how to MANAGE there wildlife the best. Are they going to make EVERY person happy? No. Are they going to get it right all the time? No. Are many of these people incompetent and don't have a clue? Probably, but that doesn't mean I want you to decide.


Another quote of Triple 7s from above, "BTW..... Toby Bridges NEVER STATED he wanted a ban on roundball/patch hunting involving what more than 95% of us hunt on this messageboard.... deer or smaller-sized game. Please show me his "ban roundball" quote poster Paco????????

Nothing worse than typing words at this messageboard that are totally incorrect -- without evidence -- without facts -- without quotations."

Wow, don't you remember this question I tried to ask you regarding one of your QUOTES? Can you give some "evidence" or a link, or will chose to ignore again? I am still really interested in who these folks are.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Flat....getting a muzzleloader to shoot where one wants is not a problem or difficult and inlines or traditional and each has similarities.
The "lazy" part or unwilling is to put the time in to make sure the gun goes ka-boom under almost any weather or circumstance and more limited range ,which thankfully is why a state like Pa. one can go in the woods ,even on public land during their late season and odds are good you'll not see another hunter.
I'm glad that you use a muzzleloader during your regular season ,which is where IMHO inlines should have been restricted to in states that initiated muzzleloading prior to the inline proliferation.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

If you had more common sense, then you would consider yourself as(1) of a million (hypothetical) that would like more say inthe decisionsthat your Wildlife/DNR governing body make..... not the other way around where these governing bodiesimplement stuff that most hunters would not approve - for no apparent good reason! We need to decidesome of thelegislations... not DNR Boards exclusively ruling over us with an iron fist.

All that other stuff you posted about asking for quote proof - needs to be addressed one-on-one. I missed your response to your earlier concerns about where I get my quotes from. Most are from messageboards - contained in whatever discussions of that day are. Some other quotes I give are from reviews, books, magazines... etc.

Would be nice if you stayed on topic... but then again, I have concern over your common sense.

[size=2]
Thompson Center Arms -- Triple Se7en Powder -- Buffalo Bullet Co.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

I've butted heads with Toby before but I do agree that scopes should be legal. If your state doesn't allow scopes on ML's then it shouldn't allow them on anything else. It is potentially discrimination. If so then the feds should withhold the funds.

Regarding roundballs, I'd have to fight him on that. I think everyone should be allowed to hunt with what they want.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

I want to ask a question and before I do, I'll firstsay that ifyou reviewed my post history, you'll see a clear trend that I do not argue, attack, etc...and Iam doing neither now...I'm simply interested in better understanding the above comment about scopes and discrimination...IE: what would be the basis for insisting that scopes be allowed in established ML seasons?

For example, scopes are notallowed on archeryequipment either...the common thread being that each season was established for use with socalled primitive weapons...short range, up close & personal style of hunting like our foire-fathers had to do...how would it be discrimination for any stateto continue those practices?

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Pedersoli Co will be going the way of Austin & Halleck very soon!

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Triple 7, why do I have to address you one on one and you can challenge someone else, when you think they are posting a bogus quote. I have asked you 2-3 times in that thread about who those "folks" were you quoted and you remain silence. If you missed it the other times, here is your opportunity to answer and shut me up. I doubt you will though.

I am personally glad scopes aren't allowed in my state. If they were allowed, I think many, many more would chose ML over general rifle season. My reasoning is selfish, just like many others'. Everyone wants the rules to benefit them and they way they want to hunt. For every 100 people no two's thoughts about everything will match.

Regarding discrimination. All the laws discriminate and are at the discression of someone making decisions. Should the speed limit be 50-55-60......or what. Well, there is no right or wrong answer, but someone has to decide. Should we just let everyone decide for themselves????? Just like many, many of these hunting regs. There is no right or wrong answer. Some people will never be happy about anything, instead of just making the best with what they have.

By the way,I am sorry for not having common sense, it's just the way I am.:)

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

I have been talking to Tony through e-mail for a while now and I have an understanding for his thoughts now. All he want's is inline to be allowed in the muzzleloading season. He also wants scopes allowed and I am not too much for that. What is the point in shooting 200yds? There is no challenge.

By the way, he is not trying to get of the roundball. He is not doing anything with the roundball. He is saying that if the traditionalist keep trying to push inlines away and not letting them hunt in the muzzleloader season then they might think about making energy restrictions. I do not see why they would get the roundball involved in this whole inline thing but why not just accept inlines? That is what the market is after.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

What thread?

Wouldn't a smart person like youjust postthe threadlink or copy it here- instead of going thru three different replies of accusations? I don't have the time to be the last poster to look at every thread here. I generally skim thru posts/threads & read what's interesting to me. Sorry if I missed your questions - but in many posts you reply in, I don't find you interesting to read.

Besides! Wouldn't a smart person like you - who wants a specific answer from a specific poster - just email him/PM him instead?

That's what everyone else here does.... except you and your buddy Frontier Gander. Where's the common sense?

[size=2]
Thompson Center Arms -- Triple Se7en Powder -- Buffalo Bullet Co.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

First we have to define discrimination. Merriam Webster shows this definition:
In this case number 3a would be the discrimination happening here. By allowing scopes during thegeneral season but not during special seasons is de facto discrimination even if it isn't de jure discrimination. You mentioned archery season, well the same thing applies there too. Archery hunters should be able to use a scope if they wish.

Of course one could make an argument that having seperate seasons is also discrimination and I agree with that. I would much rather have deer season where any legal means is used to hunt deer. If you like using a muzzleloader, then use one. If you like bow hunting then use that. If you prefer cartridge firearms then by all means use them. I have no fear of another hunting tool just because it's different than mine.

But much as it applies to the situation, TheMerraim Webster Disctionary is just a book. The definition that mattersis given by the Departement of interior.

"Segregation or Seperate treatment", that sounds a lot like number 3a above.

Like I said, de facto discrimination.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

MLKeith,

I took a quick look at the ballistics, take a look at the two links, we are both close enough to be right, my point was that inlines are real close to 30-30's. BTW, the Remington site has the 30-30 zero's @ 150 yards and the PRbullet site has them zero'd @ 100 yards, if the 30-30 was zeroed @ 100 the drop would be considerably more. I really like the 30-30 but consider it some sort of sin to scope a levergun..LOL

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R30302

http://www.prbullet.com/drop.htm

Doug

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

As far as Pedersoli going under, I don't think their business is all that geared towards the ML'ghunting crowd, take a look at their site. Lots of repro cartridge guns and many of their ML'rs are aimed at guys who just like to shoot old styled guns. I guess it wouldn't hurt them if more people bought their guns for hunting.

I certainly do hope that their letter is self-serving as to selling more traditional styled guns, just as most of the other manufacturers have their own interests in mind when they promote their inlines. As far as i know, Pedersoli is the only manufacturer to come right out and state that inlines have postituted the ML'g seasons. What ever side you take, speak your mind, and Pedersoli has done that.

Are inline hunters lazy? Probably not many who take the time to post here and boards like this one. Most of the inline posts I read hereare by knowledgeable shooters and gun nuts-(guy who like guns). I'm afraid it's not the same story in my personal life. I've been ML'r hunting with the same 15 or so guys for the past 20 years. In past years, most of them would start practicing and working up loads in late August/early September, just about every Sunday we would meet at a farm and shoot. I am the only traditional shooter left and not one of these guys has shot his gun all year. Most will start two Sundays before the opening day, a few will wait until the last Sunday, and atleast one still has his gun loaded from last season and will just go hunting. Why don't they practice, because they feel with inlines and scopes, they don't need much. It's just like the last weekend before Gun season starts, your local range is overcrowded with guys who will fling a few rounds down range and proclaim their gun "good e'nuff". Are these guy's lazy, I think so, but they can generally get away with it because with inlines, scopes, pellets and sabots, things don't change that much from year to year as far as their gun's performance. What I do see happening is more wounded deer, not because of inlines, but these same guys. They now have a gun and scope that enables them to shoot farther, because they don't practice alot, they rely on what they have heard, read, or imaginedwhen it comes to long range shots. 15 years ago, after a days hunt I might hear one of them say that a certain deer was just out of his range, now I hear the same guy say something like, yeah, it was pretty far but this gun is supposed to shoot that far so I gave it a try.....Give it atry???on a deer???

So this year I'm hunting somewhere else, with a guy who feels like I do. It's not how big the rack is, or how many you pile up, it's about sure kills and having fun. Have fun all.

Doug

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

The "Tightness" thread has been bumped to the top. Please state your source for your quote.

And why take a pot shot at Frontier Gander here? He's not even involved in this and you are slamming him.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

So, a state saying that you can not use a scope on your ML is discrimination and the feds should withhold funds? I sure hope not.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

The way I see it everyone wants to have the longest season with whatever they hunt with. In Missouri, bowhunters have the longest season Sept 15 thru Jan 15 with a break from Nov 11 thru Nov 22 for rifle season. Ml season is Nov 24 thru Dec 3. If you did not tag out by then, there is an anterless portion firearms season Dec 9 thru 17 in select areas of the state. So lets see the longest is bow, then rifle, then ML. Oh and the youth get screwed by only having Oct 28 and 29 (6-15 yrs). I don't see anyone trying to extend the youthseasons in any state, after all that is where our future sport will be. In my state here is what I think should be addressed:

1. Have rifle season and in-line ML season together fromNov 11-Dec 3. (seems everyone likes to take 200-300 yard shots so whats the difference)

2. Have Bow and Traditional ML from Sept 15-Jan 15. (max range seems to be 50 yards so thats resonable).

3. Do away with the extrended anterless portion as you can easily hunt with bow or traditional ML the rest of the season.

4. The youth rifle portion could take place for several weeks in October. (Not to hot or cold for the kids and deer start to move alot around here in that time) It keeps the kids interested. Two days can bore a kid right out of hunting if nothing happens. I think kids should also be allowed to hunt overbait. Here in MO it's NO for all. Bow and traditional could be put on hold during the kids portion for safety reasons. I sure as hell would put off hunting during that time if I knew children were having the exteded season and enjoying the outdoors with their families hunting. This ensures that our sport willcontinue to grow.

Our state pretty much allows anything that shoots (except crossbows but that's another story) and that's what makes each state unique. They all have different rules and methods of taking game which is why I like to hunt other states. Hell if I'm paying $600 for a tag and they say no scopes or fiber optics only open metal sights with a caplock, hey I get a new gun! What a challenge that would be, and if I don't connect the money is used in that states wildlife program. It's a win win for all involved. No one method for taking game is superior over the other, it's the skilled hunter behind the vehicle that drives it into the game we like to hunt. I don't own any traditional MLs but I sure as hell respect the guys who shoot them and want to keep them alive, after all that's the origin of all firearms. (That Lyman Deerstalker in stainless has my name on it:))

It's just my two cents.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

I think so much of this boils down to Gotbuck's first sentence above. Everyone wants the laws to be set up to meet THEIR desires.

Our ML season was 7 days long, today was the last day. Tomorrow starts the modern firearm season. I got to take my 14 y.o. son out 2 days. The first day, we didn't even see a deer. The second, we spotted 7 deer (2 bucks) bedded down 600 yards away. We hiked 1 1/2 - 2 miles to get into position with the wind in our favor. After all that, they had been spooked by something else (I think a vehicle) and had moved out. I gave Matt a high-five and we considered it a successful hunt even though we didn't bring anything home. We didn't have scopes on our guns because they aren't legal. If they were legal, we would have had scopes on, but I certainly didn't feel discriminated against because we couldn't.

I also agree that we all better start supporting the youth and trying to promote hunting/fishing activities to them. They certainly have a lot competing for their time (sports, video games........). They are the future, but most adult hunters really don't want to give up anything to help anyone else, including youngsters. Some adults do a tremendous amount, but not many.

I was at my oldest son's football game this past week and talking to a few other dads. These guys are hunters and I asked them if their boys go out hunting with them. The answer,"No, they really aren't intersted." Or, "No, they are just too busy."

I know a couple sets of guys that do a ton of duck hunting every year. During the youth hunt, what do they do.....they "recruit" some young kid to take out so they can have a couple more days of hunting. Do they invite these kids on any other day of the season? NO!

Kids are most important in my book. Here is a link to some pictures I posted from the youth pheasant hunt a few weeks ago.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1699051&mpage=2

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Yes, I understand about Webster...and IMOif that's where you're coming from then pure Webster definitionsapplied out of context would support the notion that those unfortunate enough to be wheelchair bound should be able to play in NFL football games, etc, when clearly that would be impractical...and fly in the face of a sport that is largely aboutphysical conditioning, speed,agility, etc.

In reallifeI think there are practical applications ofdefinitions whenimplementing somethingto preserve it in the spirit that was originally intended...IMO, there can be no mis-understanding whatsoever that the original intent & purpose of 'primitive weapons seasons' was to recognize and provideopportunities that wouldcontinue to promote the use of traditional style muzzleloaders, similarto those typically found and used backduring the early American muzzleloading era...users of which have to learn their shortcomings, typically have to become a better hunter due to the reduced distance limitations, etc.

Building radically different, modernrifles which includeall sorts of modern accessories and performance enhancements designed to eliminate the limitations that our forefathers had to learn to cope with, and still claimthey're "no different from any muzzleloader andshould be allowed to participate as well" isa blatantly obvious breechof reality.

I definitely understand there's a faction that wants to use all those modern advantages to makehuntingeasier for them...and that they then want to use those same modern advantagesto participate in the long establishedtraditional muzzleloading seasons...I just don't believe there's any practical logic that trying to keep them out is discrimination.

To insist that modernhigh performance muzzleloaders wearing state of the art scopesshould be allowed to participate in the traditional seasons is like insisting that F15 Strike Eagles should be allowedtoparticipate in a WWII Fighter Aircraft competition...just my views on the matter...not saying your view is right or wrong...I just see it differently.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I just don't see any real differences between sidelocks and inlines. You can loadsidelocks to make them perform the same as inlines just as you can load inlines to perform like sidelocks. The line is imposed by the shooter and even traditionalists can't agree on it except that inlines and scopes don't belong.


http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Hi-Res_Sharpshooter_2_op_800x629.jpg

This doesn't look very modern to me but yet it is illegal in states that don't allow scopes.

Also your comments about the NFL are what is known as a red herring. As is your comments about fighters in a WWII competition. And in case your unfamiliar with the term:

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Well, in spite of my attempts to make it clear I was posting a different viewpoint, you seem bent ontaking this to some other place and I won't go there.

Your style appears to bethatwhen someone has a different viewpoint from yours, youkeep jumpingbehindWebsterand claiming things that you disagree with to be"red herrings" instead of having a dialogue exchanging information.

Have a nice day...

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Yes! In fact, the Supreme Court has already ruled that the states are to manage their own wildlife resources.....

This Bridges guy wants an energy limit placed on ML projectiles that would effectively eliminate a lot of round-ball rifles from the deer hunt. I personally oppose the placement of any such limitations on hunting arms in this country, but do think the "caliber limit" used by some states is pretty valid. However, IMO, bullet kinetic energy is not a valid expressionof the killing power of any firearm! Some rifles which would be acceptable under such criteria use varmint bullets that are definitely NOT suitable for deer shooting!

"It takes at least 1,000 foot-pounds of energy to kill a deer cleanly".....RIGHT! Now I'll tell one!

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

Since the NFL or fighters have nothing to due with the topic of discussion they are irrelevant. The conversation was regarding muzzleloaders/regulations. And yes those comments were red herrings but I didn't know if you knew that.

RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
 

MLKeith,

I took a quick look at the ballistics, take a look at the two links, we are both close enough to be right, my point was that inlines are real close to 30-30's. BTW, the Remington site has the 30-30 zero's @ 150 yards and the PRbullet site has them zero'd @ 100 yards, if the 30-30 was zeroed @ 100 the drop would be considerably more. I really like the 30-30 but consider it some sort of sin to scope a levergun..LOL

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R30302

http://www.prbullet.com/drop.htm

Doug
[/quote]

The point I was trying to make is that a 30-30 can and will outperform my muzzleloader for distance (especially if handloaded). I understand that some of the heavier bullets have a lot of drop (in fact what Toby was trying to say is that the older black powder cartridges with heavy bullet in .40 and .45 caliber are very close to present day muzzleloaders and I agree although as soon as you allow them it is very easy to improve the performance). I can make my Badger barrel Rolling Block 40-65 shoot a lot farther and flatter than my .50 muzzleloader as I can run smokeless rounds through it and it really kickes them out. The action is from an original Remington but one of the 7X57 caliber ones so the strength is capable of smokeless loads. Consequently I still believe that muzzleloaders with exception of possibly Savage (which is illegal in several states at least with the smokeless powder) and the Express rifles being made on Howa and Remington actions for about $2000.00, cannot compare with cartridge rifles. Even these cannot compare with a 30-06 or stronger cartridge for flat shooting and energy at the end of reasonable shooting distance.