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RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
What thread? The "Tightness" thread has been bumped to the top. Please state your source for your quote. And why take a pot shot at Frontier Gander here? He's not even involved in this and you are slamming him. |
RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
ORIGINAL: Wolfhound76 I've butted heads with Toby before but I do agree that scopes should be legal. If your state doesn't allow scopes on ML's then it shouldn't allow them on anything else. It is potentially discrimination. If so then the feds should withhold the funds. Regarding roundballs, I'd have to fight him on that. I think everyone should be allowed to hunt with what they want. |
RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
The way I see it everyone wants to have the longest season with whatever they hunt with. In Missouri, bowhunters have the longest season Sept 15 thru Jan 15 with a break from Nov 11 thru Nov 22 for rifle season. Ml season is Nov 24 thru Dec 3. If you did not tag out by then, there is an anterless portion firearms season Dec 9 thru 17 in select areas of the state. So lets see the longest is bow, then rifle, then ML. Oh and the youth get screwed by only having Oct 28 and 29 (6-15 yrs). I don't see anyone trying to extend the youthseasons in any state, after all that is where our future sport will be. In my state here is what I think should be addressed:
1. Have rifle season and in-line ML season together fromNov 11-Dec 3. (seems everyone likes to take 200-300 yard shots so whats the difference) 2. Have Bow and Traditional ML from Sept 15-Jan 15. (max range seems to be 50 yards so thats resonable). 3. Do away with the extrended anterless portion as you can easily hunt with bow or traditional ML the rest of the season. 4. The youth rifle portion could take place for several weeks in October. (Not to hot or cold for the kids and deer start to move alot around here in that time) It keeps the kids interested. Two days can bore a kid right out of hunting if nothing happens. I think kids should also be allowed to hunt overbait. Here in MO it's NO for all. Bow and traditional could be put on hold during the kids portion for safety reasons. I sure as hell would put off hunting during that time if I knew children were having the exteded season and enjoying the outdoors with their families hunting. This ensures that our sport willcontinue to grow. Our state pretty much allows anything that shoots (except crossbows but that's another story) and that's what makes each state unique. They all have different rules and methods of taking game which is why I like to hunt other states. Hell if I'm paying $600 for a tag and they say no scopes or fiber optics only open metal sights with a caplock, hey I get a new gun! What a challenge that would be, and if I don't connect the money is used in that states wildlife program. It's a win win for all involved. No one method for taking game is superior over the other, it's the skilled hunter behind the vehicle that drives it into the game we like to hunt. I don't own any traditional MLs but I sure as hell respect the guys who shoot them and want to keep them alive, after all that's the origin of all firearms. (That Lyman Deerstalker in stainless has my name on it:)) It's just my two cents. |
RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
I think so much of this boils down to Gotbuck's first sentence above. Everyone wants the laws to be set up to meet THEIR desires.
Our ML season was 7 days long, today was the last day. Tomorrow starts the modern firearm season. I got to take my 14 y.o. son out 2 days. The first day, we didn't even see a deer. The second, we spotted 7 deer (2 bucks) bedded down 600 yards away. We hiked 1 1/2 - 2 miles to get into position with the wind in our favor. After all that, they had been spooked by something else (I think a vehicle) and had moved out. I gave Matt a high-five and we considered it a successful hunt even though we didn't bring anything home. We didn't have scopes on our guns because they aren't legal. If they were legal, we would have had scopes on, but I certainly didn't feel discriminated against because we couldn't. I also agree that we all better start supporting the youth and trying to promote hunting/fishing activities to them. They certainly have a lot competing for their time (sports, video games........). They are the future, but most adult hunters really don't want to give up anything to help anyone else, including youngsters. Some adults do a tremendous amount, but not many. I was at my oldest son's football game this past week and talking to a few other dads. These guys are hunters and I asked them if their boys go out hunting with them. The answer,"No, they really aren't intersted." Or, "No, they are just too busy." I know a couple sets of guys that do a ton of duck hunting every year. During the youth hunt, what do they do.....they "recruit" some young kid to take out so they can have a couple more days of hunting. Do they invite these kids on any other day of the season? NO! Kids are most important in my book. Here is a link to some pictures I posted from the youth pheasant hunt a few weeks ago. http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1699051&mpage=2 |
RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
ORIGINAL: Wolfhound76 ORIGINAL: roundball I want to ask a question and before I do, I'll firstsay that ifyou reviewed my post history, you'll see a clear trend that I do not argue, attack, etc...and Iam doing neither now...I'm simply interested in better understanding the above comment about scopes and discrimination...IE: what would be the basis for insisting that scopes be allowed in established ML seasons? For example, scopes are notallowed on archeryequipment either...the common thread being that each season was established for use with socalled primitive weapons...short range, up close & personal style of hunting like our foire-fathers had to do...how would it be discrimination for any stateto continue those practices? 1 a : the act of discriminating b : the process by which two stimuli differing in some aspect are responded to differently 2 : the quality or power of finely distinguishing 3 a : the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually b : prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment <racial discrimination> Of course one could make an argument that having seperate seasons is also discrimination and I agree with that. I would much rather have deer season where any legal means is used to hunt deer. If you like using a muzzleloader, then use one. If you like bow hunting then use that. If you prefer cartridge firearms then by all means use them. I have no fear of another hunting tool just because it's different than mine. But much as it applies to the situation, TheMerraim Webster Disctionary is just a book. The definition that mattersis given by the Departement of interior. Discrimination includes: denial of services, aids, or benefits; provision of different service or in a different manner; and segregation or separate treatment. In addition, sex discrimination is prohibited in Federally assisted educational programs. Like I said, de facto discrimination. In reallifeI think there are practical applications ofdefinitions whenimplementing somethingto preserve it in the spirit that was originally intended...IMO, there can be no mis-understanding whatsoever that the original intent & purpose of 'primitive weapons seasons' was to recognize and provideopportunities that wouldcontinue to promote the use of traditional style muzzleloaders, similarto those typically found and used backduring the early American muzzleloading era...users of which have to learn their shortcomings, typically have to become a better hunter due to the reduced distance limitations, etc. Building radically different, modernrifles which includeall sorts of modern accessories and performance enhancements designed to eliminate the limitations that our forefathers had to learn to cope with, and still claimthey're "no different from any muzzleloader andshould be allowed to participate as well" isa blatantly obvious breechof reality. I definitely understand there's a faction that wants to use all those modern advantages to makehuntingeasier for them...and that they then want to use those same modern advantagesto participate in the long establishedtraditional muzzleloading seasons...I just don't believe there's any practical logic that trying to keep them out is discrimination. To insist that modernhigh performance muzzleloaders wearing state of the art scopesshould be allowed to participate in the traditional seasons is like insisting that F15 Strike Eagles should be allowedtoparticipate in a WWII Fighter Aircraft competition...just my views on the matter...not saying your view is right or wrong...I just see it differently. |
RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
ORIGINAL: roundball Yes, I understand about Webster...and IMOif that's where you're coming from then pure Webster definitionsapplied out of context would support the notion that those unfortunate enough to be wheelchair bound should be able to play in NFL football games, etc, when clearly that would be impractical...and fly in the face of a sport that is largely aboutphysical conditioning, speed,agility, etc. In reallifeI think there are practical applications ofdefinitions whenimplementing somethingto preserve it in the spirit that was originally intended...IMO, there can be no mis-understanding whatsoever that the original intent & purpose of 'primitive weapons seasons' was to recognize and provideopportunities that wouldcontinue to promote the use of traditional style muzzleloaders, similarto those typically found and used backduring the early American muzzleloading era...users of which have to learn their shortcomings, typically have to become a better hunter due to the reduced distance limitations, etc. Building radically different, modernrifles which includeall sorts of modern accessories and performance enhancements designed to eliminate the limitations that our forefathers had to learn to cope with, and still claimthey're "no different from any muzzleloader andshould be allowed to participate as well" isa blatantly obvious breechof reality. I definitely understand there's a faction that wants to use all those modern advantages to makehuntingeasier for them...and that they then want to use those same modern advantagesto participate in the long establishedtraditional muzzleloading seasons...I just don't believe there's any practical logic that trying to keep them out is discrimination. To insist that modernhigh performance muzzleloaders wearing state of the art scopesshould be allowed to participate in the traditional seasons is like insisting that F15 Strike Eagles should be allowedtoparticipate in a WWII Fighter Aircraft competition...just my views on the matter...not saying your view is right or wrong...I just see it differently. Discrimination includes: <snip>segregation or separate treatment. http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/Hi-Res_Sharpshooter_2_op_800x629.jpg This doesn't look very modern to me but yet it is illegal in states that don't allow scopes. Also your comments about the NFL are what is known as a red herring. As is your comments about fighters in a WWII competition. And in case your unfamiliar with the term: Main Entry: red herring Function: noun 1 : a herring cured by salting and slow smoking to a dark brown color 2 [from the practice of drawing a red herring across a trail to confuse hunting dogs] : something that distracts attention from the real issue |
RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
Well, in spite of my attempts to make it clear I was posting a different viewpoint, you seem bent ontaking this to some other place and I won't go there.
Your style appears to bethatwhen someone has a different viewpoint from yours, youkeep jumpingbehindWebsterand claiming things that you disagree with to be"red herrings" instead of having a dialogue exchanging information. Have a nice day... |
RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
ORIGINAL: Pittsburghunter So the guy is trying to have the federal government tell your fish and game dept it needs to follow his guidelines? Screw him. Let the states set their own rules, they know best how to manage their game. This Bridges guy wants an energy limit placed on ML projectiles that would effectively eliminate a lot of round-ball rifles from the deer hunt. I personally oppose the placement of any such limitations on hunting arms in this country, but do think the "caliber limit" used by some states is pretty valid. However, IMO, bullet kinetic energy is not a valid expressionof the killing power of any firearm! Some rifles which would be acceptable under such criteria use varmint bullets that are definitely NOT suitable for deer shooting! "It takes at least 1,000 foot-pounds of energy to kill a deer cleanly".....RIGHT! Now I'll tell one! |
RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
ORIGINAL: roundball Well, in spite of my attempts to make it clear I was posting a different viewpoint, you seem bent ontaking this to some other place and I won't go there. Your style appears to bethatwhen someone has a different viewpoint from yours, youkeep jumpingbehindWebsterand claiming things that you disagree with to be"red herrings" instead of having a dialogue exchanging information. Have a nice day... |
RE: Pedersoli Co. drops support of Toby Bridges due to his extreme views on Muzzleloading
MLKeith,
I took a quick look at the ballistics, take a look at the two links, we are both close enough to be right, my point was that inlines are real close to 30-30's. BTW, the Remington site has the 30-30 zero's @ 150 yards and the PRbullet site has them zero'd @ 100 yards, if the 30-30 was zeroed @ 100 the drop would be considerably more. I really like the 30-30 but consider it some sort of sin to scope a levergun..LOL http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R30302 http://www.prbullet.com/drop.htm Doug [/quote] The point I was trying to make is that a 30-30 can and will outperform my muzzleloader for distance (especially if handloaded). I understand that some of the heavier bullets have a lot of drop (in fact what Toby was trying to say is that the older black powder cartridges with heavy bullet in .40 and .45 caliber are very close to present day muzzleloaders and I agree although as soon as you allow them it is very easy to improve the performance). I can make my Badger barrel Rolling Block 40-65 shoot a lot farther and flatter than my .50 muzzleloader as I can run smokeless rounds through it and it really kickes them out. The action is from an original Remington but one of the 7X57 caliber ones so the strength is capable of smokeless loads. Consequently I still believe that muzzleloaders with exception of possibly Savage (which is illegal in several states at least with the smokeless powder) and the Express rifles being made on Howa and Remington actions for about $2000.00, cannot compare with cartridge rifles. Even these cannot compare with a 30-06 or stronger cartridge for flat shooting and energy at the end of reasonable shooting distance. |
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