cayugad

I decided to play with my Ultra Mag .504 today as well. It was 86 degrees and a slight breese. Rather nice actually. I set the bench at 50 yards and was using the fiber optic sights that came with the rifle.

I originally wanted to see how the 385 grain Buffalo Bullets would shoot out of the White. Well at 50 yards they shot OK. Not great and not bad. Nothing to get excited about. Just OK. They would be grouping well and then all of a sudden a flyer would hit and you'd be 6" out of the main group. I still have not figured that one out yet.

After getting disgusted with the Buffalo Bullets, I got out some of the 460 grain BullShop bullets casted in .504 for me. This batch does not fall down the barrel like the last batch. There is not really resistance mind you, but they are not as loose as the others were. I decided to try the same type of shooting Cascadedad did, with one shooting bag on the bench rest.



The target on the right you will note has a red X through one of the hits. That's because it was made by a 385 Buffalo Bullet. When I said flyers, I was not kidding... The others are not as good as Cascadedad's peep sight can accomplish, but for simple fiber optics, more then good enough for me to take a deer out of the running at that distance.

I shot 70 grains of Triple Se7en 3f and on the other 70 grains of Goex 3f. On the Goex target I had a respectable group going, then had to push the issue and had a slight flier. Still not too bad, but I should have quit when I was ahead...

I am starting to think, Warne QD rings and a Thompson Center 1X 32mm scope (legal for our muzzleloading season) which could be switched back and fourth on the mounts with my Nikon Pro Staff 2-7x32mm. I just have been finding it harder and harder to focus with the open sights when I get any distance on it...

cascadedad

Redclub, Both the ramp and the sight are significantly lower than the ones that came on the gun. Together, they are way lower, which is needed with the Lyman Peep sight, especially for shooting the conicals. I kind of just guessed on it and I think I hit it right on the money.

Actually, I think someone else pointed out the ramp at one time when I first started lurking here and then I asked UC and he pointed out that exact sight. Based on how it shot 300 gr saboted bullets, I decided to change the ramp and sight.

Thanks for doing some comparison shooting Dave. I believe that shooting the peep with the real small aperature on the back is a very precise combination, but it is definitely ONLY for target shooting. I will do some testing later using the larger aperature and then also with no aperature. I amagine my shooting will be similar to yours with those set ups.

Pglasgow

Hey cayugad,

The Sidekick has land diameter of .501, and the Whiteis .504. I got the feeling thatis "too much" play. I would bet that the BB's lower rings barely mate the lands of the Whiteif they do that at all. With the 410s I used a wad which probably reduced alot of blow by. You might get a little betterperformancefrom them with a sub-base or even maybe a wad. One of these days I'm going to "mike" the Buffaloes when I get my hands on a micrometer.

The buffaloes are working in my "tighter than your White bore" butthe groups aren't asgoodas those of hornady's GPs whichhappen to be5 orders more difficult to load. In fact I think the goal of 4" is going to only be at 85 yards for the Buffaloes, but scoped, I am pretty sure the hornady's can sub-MOA at that same range, especially with BP for powder. I've thought about the Bullshops, but I think they would be "way to tight" to get started in my rifle. The hornadys begin easy and get tighter as one approaches the top band. I think B.S. is right. The top band needs to be groove diameter or pretty close to it. Maybe the hornadys would do well for the White, if you have some laying around, you might try them.

For hunting I am thinking of "pre-rifling" some hornadys in my barrel by crowning them, then rodding them out the muzzle. Kind of like B.S.'s swaging of Buffaloes, only I'll be more like resizing the hornadys so that they load easier in the field. Also I like this idea because I can cull any that get deformed going in for use at the range, leaving the most pristine for use while hunting.

The BullShop conicals shot well in your White. All critters had better stay clear of your aim!

Happy Hunting, Phil

cascadedad

Have any of you guys tried the PowerPunch 460's?

I was just reading this over and remembered I had brought my calipers home from work to measure the Bullshops. They were a consistent 0.5040" and I do mean consistent. Every one, all the way around, no matter where it was measured. No wonder they shoot so good.

Then I thought about measuring the conicals (PowerPunch 460's) that came with the Ultra Mags. Much to my surprise, right on the package it says .50 (503) caliber. Hmmmm, that's interesting. I measured and they were for the most part 0.5030 but that was on the front rib and back rib only. The inner 3 ribs are more like 0.500" or a little less, but not very consistent. The front and back ribs were not near as consistant as the Bullshop bullets either.

So, based on my experience with the slip fit of the Bullshop bullets (504's) in the Ultra Mag, why in the world would they supply 503's with the gun. I haven't tried it, but I would imagine they would just slide freely in and out of the barrel and I can't believe they would be accurate. Am I missing something???

Pglasgow

My conical experience has always been at fairly short range. 75 yards and less. Easy slip fit with top bands that kinda pop in after moderate pressure has been what I have been used to with GPs and Maxiballs in a TC Hawken. The accuracy has been "acceptable" at 75 yards,but never really great like under 2".

My objective on getting the Sidekick was to achieve a load which was comparable to a 50-70 cartridge rifle, which in capable hands, are remarkably accurate with 400+ conicals to ranges I would have never considered in the past. I needed the 1:28 twist. So when one has the barrel to handle the big bullet and 70 grains to 90 grains black powder, its like an old cartridge rifle, except for one thing. The bullets in those rifles were groove diameter so the process of propelling them cut the grooves in the bullet so the bullet is always reliably stabilized.

With a muzzleloader, such a bullet, which were not typically pure lead, would be impractical andmaybe unsafe to load. So muzzleloading bullets have to be under groove diameter for most of there length or the difficulty in loading is unacceptable. As such we depend on obturation to get the kind of grip which would be necessary to sufficiently stabilize the bullet. A slip fit, obviously isn't enough, the bullet must obturate. In this sense, it would seem that the greatest the diameter, which in practice, can be consistently and reliably loaded from the muzzle, would be the best choice.

U. C. can comment on this, but I suspect in working out the sizing of the Bullshop bullets, he was trying to improveon thePower Punch's accuracy and I am convinced that there is an improvement,which, evenifsmall at ranges like 50 yards, could be considerable at ranges of 100 - 200 yards. Bullet instability effects on groupings grow exponentionally with range.

B. S., I think, has done considerable research on the "bore fit" aspect of conicals in muzzleloaders. He has gone as far as building a swage for swaging bullets to the precise dimensions of his barrel, to include its rifling, and as far as modifying his maxiball mold to produce bullets whose top band is groove diameter. From his comments, the results of doing these things are improvements in accuracy. From my experience with the tight fitting GP's, I have to say I think his comments are right on target. I do hope he comments here about it further.

Happy Hunting, Phil

cayugad

I've shot only the Power Punch conicals that came with the rifle when I bought it. They load very easy. In fact fowl the barrel first before shooting them. They still load easy and are very accurate. Also the Power Star Sabots (I believe they are called). I shot two of them and they shot great. I used 90 grains of Triple Se7en and with the scoped Ultra Mag they touched in the bull at 60 yards. I am kind of saving the rest of them for when we finally get some rain. Then I can safely get over into the hay field and do some long range shooting. Right now its too dry to be shooting over that field.

Redclub

Cas, I changed the slide on my U-M and it works very well with 460's.
I also use a twilight apperature.
Ken

Underclocked

Bullshop can size from .500 to .504 and most bullets are done in a final double sizing. He will do a single sizing at the stated diameter, if requested, which will result in a very slightly larger diameter bullet. His bullets mic' perfectly so far (for me at least). Aclean bore fitting conical is almost ideal in most cases for those that shoot a fouled bore and the beauty of the things is their accuracy (in a good barrel)combined with ease of loading. Slight engraving will only somewhat diminish ease of loading, a small amount being nota bad thing oftentimes in terms of accuracy. Depending upon your area and type of hunting, a small amount of engraving on the clean bore might be more desireable as it would certainly help hold the bullet seated. For my rifles, the perfect compromise just leaves very slight rifling markings on a clean bore yet still loads quite easily.I'm in the habit of and recommendperiodically checking to seethe load has remained seated while hunting or after being loaded for any significant length of time.

I've got some PowerPunches that are .505 and came with one of my UltraMags. I'm sure they would load and probably shoot well, but the inconsistent sizing from batch to batch is a bit of a problem, IMHO. Haven't tried them.

Bullshop now has some ".50 Lites" at 300 and 350 grains (I believe those are the weights he indicated) if some of you want to try lighter weight conicals.

cascadedad

Is this right? I always thought, at least for a centerfire, that it took the bullet 100+ yards to stable out and after that things were more consistent. So, you can sight in one day at 100 yards and the next day with different conditions, you may have to adjust things. But if you sight in at 200 yards things remain more consistent, because at that distance the bullet has stabalized.

I haven't tested this at all, just what I remember reading somewhere years ago and it always stuck with me.

One of these evenings, I will push one of the Bullshops into the barrel and out and see what kind of engraving I get. I will do it on all 3 of the Ultra Mags and see if there are any differences at all. That will be interesting.

Pglasgow

What I mean, is that if the bullet is not stable, the effects get worse in units of MOA the more range you put between the muzzle and target.

I haven't been shooting the buffaloes on a fouled barrel, but after reading UC's comments, I'll give that a try to see if it tightens groupings any. I know I'm engraving them.

Happy Hunting, Phil