i wish i could find that article on barrel wear. i guess author was saying that 10,000 rounds is what you would get with 2f. he then said with 3f you would get around 3,000 rounds. i too am curious on when you started having bad shooting with your hawkins and what powder, 2F or 3F. i may have just got scared out of using 3F.so, i guess we have to lower the charges if we use 3f,which we do anyhow.i am trying to find that article, i swear i put it under favorites.

cayugad

Without a doubt mostare hotter than BP and again can be accelerating the problem - but I am still inclined to believe this takes a lot of rounds - a lot more than most of us shoot.

I still feel one of the bigger areas of concern will be in the breech plug area of an inline - sidelocks the gas is pretty much sealed in except what blows back out the nipple and most nipples are replaced long before the cutting gets to be out of hand. Flnters you replace the vent liner every so often to defeat the same thing. Even the Savage breech plugs come with a replaceable vent liner. Inline breech plugs may be the weak spot once the cutting starts it keeps cutting in the same track (path of least resistance). Again, I think it is important to stop these gases at the face of your breech plug not in the threads.

I have included an crude drawing of what I am trying to say.

Having replaced a lot of "shot out" barrels over the years, I would think it would take a tremendous number of rounds to shoot out a MZ barrel. With CF rifle and pistol, jacketed bullets tend to wear on the rifling more than lead. A lot of my customers are competition IPSC shooters and will wear out a match grade stainless steel pistol barrel in one or two seasons. Shooting jacketed bullets, the barrel life is generally limited to about 30,000 rounds. I have had some .45 ACP's that were shot with only hardcast lead that went 100K rounds. As pressures and "overbore" calibers get pushed to the limit in rifles, barrel life really takes a dive. Some of the worst are overbore rifle calibers that use long heavy bullets. Like the .22-284 with 80 gr. VLD bullets. 500 rounds?

As I see it, the lead bullets combined with relatively low pressures and zero overbore is going to make a MZ barrel last a long time. The part of the barrel (other than the breech plug) that I would expect to wear out first would be the muzzle end - from all thebullet starting andseating necessary with each shot. I'd be surprised if MZ barrels were particularly prone to the same classic throat erosion that plagues CF rifles. I also think swabbing the barrel in between shots is going to make it last longer. As each bullet passes over the gritty residue left behind by the previous shot, it is bound to have an abrasive effect over time.

Just my thoughts, as a gunsmith. I have no practical experience to back this up, though. Maybe some day I will shoot out of one my smokepoles, or get a shot-out one in the shop that has a well documented history.

Roskoe

Great response thank you...

What might your thoughts be about escaping gases moving by the breech plug and out across a few of the threads? I am not concerned about the breech plug as I am the the threaded area that the breech plug screws into. Inspection of this area would be very difficult.I have this personal thing to stop these gases at the face of the BP. After reading the reports on the Savage blow-up and the suggested reasoning for the blow up, that area does concern me. But again I can not even imagine the number of rounds that would take at BP or even with Sub powders.

One thing that adds to my concern a little bit - TC will longer sale breech plug replacements for their Hawkins - they must be sent in for replacement so TC can make sure they are sealed. They have the same breech plug face and barrel face. The first one I built before TC clamped down did leak a little and I had to replace the breech plug with a new one and achieve that seal.

Somehow this all make sense my head but I probably am not presenting it correctly.

This is a total and complete crock!! IF you use lead bullets, your barrel will last literally forever. If you shoot cloth patched or paper-patched balls/bullets, it is the PATCH MATERIAL that wears out the bore, NOT the powder. I don't know what damage a plastic sabot causes,but the mechanism which wears out a ML barrel is entirely different from what ruins smokeless powder barrels. In smokeless powder arms, the hot powder gasses actually melt and carry away a small bit of the barrel steel each shot, just like a cutting torch. BP operates at so much lower temp/pressure than smokeles that this does not occur. Instead, the barrel is actually worn away by the friction of the projectile. Leadbullets are too soft to wear away steel, but paper and cloth patch material does!

i wish i could find that article again.the author was a person who shoots competion stuff etc.so, patchs and roundball wear out a barrel, oh my. i was just ready to switch from my maxi-balls to roundballs. i bought all this stuff to start again. if a patch is lubed and i use bore butter in barrel, would that not reduce the wear of patch in barrel?

AHawkeye bore scope would allow a very thorough inspection of the threaded area of a MZ barrel, just like we use them to inspect the throat of a CF rifle. I'm not seeing that as a big issue, though; since the main "pressure relief valve" of the system is the nipple - and even the 209 systems are somewhat leaky.

If I were T/C, I too would be hesitant to sell breech plugs because of all the folks out there who are building their own guns; andwant to try to thread and install the plug themselves. These barrel threads need to be machinedprecisely and torqued up very solid. Also, there is the issue of the flats on the barrel being indexed - and this would certainly require the services of a skilled lathe operator to shave the barrel shoulder off just enough to index under torque.

Overall, I would be surprised to find the breech plug threads worn away on a MZ barrel that has been shot a bunch. I could imagine some throat erosion on a gun that has had agadzillion 150 grain loads shot through it. And mostly crown/muzzle wear from the bullet seating process on any MZ rifle.

Eldequello - I think you are right on the money in you supposition that patched round balls and plastic sabots will have a minimal effect on barrel wear. The only thing I have wondered is that black powder residue seems to be a lot more abrasive than other powder residue. I could imagine this abrasive effect, over time, wearing the rifling down. As you probably know, one of the standard methods of cutting hard steel is to use an abrasive compoundand apply it toa softer metal (like brass or aluminum) first. This will cut the hard steel better than applying the abrasive to hard steel lap. Something like this probably goes on with the lead bullets going down the a bore coated with black powder residue. (I know it happens with aluminum cleaning rods coated with powder residue). Bet it would take two lifetimes, though. And those of use who swab between shots might not get much wear of this type either.

I also agree Roskoe. However I am not a gunsmith, but I've done most of the smithing on my own weapons and for many other folks over the years.

I happen to have an abused CVA Mountain in 54 cal that has a barrel that's on it's way out. Not because it's shot out but because it was horribly rusted when I obtained the rifle and I had to polish out the bore quite a bit to clear much of the rough areas. Since, I have easily a couple thousand rounds through that bore. It still shoots ok, but the accuracy is not as good as it could be were the rifle cared for in the first place.

I also have yet to shoot out an ML bore. My first ML (a T/C Hawken 50 Cal caplock kit) is 36 years old. I don't have a clue as to how many PRB's and conicals I've tossed down the bore. Tens of thousands? Not a clue. I've also shot all sorts of powders and countless pounds of 2FG and 3FG through that old T/C.

I switched to largely 3FG powders about 12 years ago.

It still shoots just as good as the day my Uncle and I put it together 36 years ago. The bore and the rifling are still clear and crisp.

Now if you don't properly care for your ML, you will be lucky to get 200 rounds out of it.


m2c.

Tahquamenon

I wouldn`t rule out gas cutting either, as a cannon freak, I know cannonballs don`t use patches and the touch holes need drilling, tapping and a bolt is put in then drilled. Thus renewing the touch hole. Then again, cannons use a lot more powder.