sproulman

i was reading and found articile about if you use 3f and not 2f ,your barrel will wear out faster. i believe the articile said 3,000 shots with 3f and 10,000 with 2f.hmmmmmmmmmmm

AQUATECH

I'm not sure if I would agree with that forum.
To me barrel wear would indicate loss of rifeling.
And as deep as that is, in most muzzleloaders, I
just don't think the grade of powder that one
used would cause that process to speed up or
to slow down. I'm not a structual engineer but
I just don't think I could agree with that view.
Just my opnion.

sabotloader

sproulman

Interesting? I never even considered this but would it be any different than standard loads in a center fire and magnum charges in a center fire? Shooting mag charges of smokeless certainly accelerates throat erosion. Would not the hotter temps of 3f cause maybe the same thing? I would really hope the number difference is not that high. 3 to 10 is not a good ratio. Another factor that mightadd to this problem would be the tightness of the projectile in the seated position and the force need to drive the projectile out the barrel. The tighter all is the greater pressure and temperatures that are built up in the barrel.

Just my iniatial thoughts when I read you post...

sabinajiles

The increased wear is reported to occur mainlyat the breech end of the barrel and is supposed to be caused by gas gutting from the increased pressure that Fffg generates. This has been kicked around by others before and there is some basis to it, in theory. However, whether it actually doeshappen seems to be more conjecture than fact. I have yet to see, or hear, of anyone that can actually show a barrel in which it did occur.

sabotloader

sabinajiles

I agree with what you are saying, but I would add, with an inline you can or will could see this gas cutting on the breech plug nose. If you use the same breech plug for the life of the gun it might really become evident. I am making an attempt to change to new breech plugs every couple of years.

One of the reasons claimed for the now famous Toby Bridges Savage failure was gas cutting. Bridges had fired a tremendous amount of rounds from this paticular Savage, he also claims that the breech plug design aids in this cutting. In the case of an inline breech plug if the gases do not get stopped at the face of the breech plug and the rear of the barrel cutting can be increased along the threads of the breech area - the plug and the breech area. This normally a long and miserable time period but the cutting does happen. The greater the pressure and temperature the more this gas cutting is accelerated.

I am really thinking the majority of us will never shoot one gun enough to be overly concerned about this problem. Hotter powders and magnum loads can accelerate this process - but again it will take a lot of bangs.

cayugad

Wouldn't then some of the new current substitute powders also then cause the same danger. My understanding is some of them burn much hotter then the average black powder does and also produces much more extreme pressures. I think a person would need to fire an extreme number of charges from the same barrel to create such a problem. Of course I am not an engineer. So stress or metal fatigue could be happening without many of us knowing.

Tree climber

I had a T/C Hawken in 45 cal.that was about 30 years old ,one year I missed a fine buck(looked to be an 8pt.)I went to the range and shot it and it started to fly all over the paper.I cleaned and shot it over and over.it was hard to keep it on a paper plate.some even missed it.
I took it to a gun smith and he said the barrel was ware out.
I callec T/C and told them.they said send it to them.they sent me a card and told me the rifleings were almost gone.they replaced it with a brand new one. the only old part was the ram rod.
they said it was rare to have one with that much ware.I would say I shot 1,000 rounds a year,some more , some less for 30 years.

so I guess they will weare out after a while,at least thats what T/C told me.

cayugad

tree climber.. how many shots do you figure you had fired out of that barrel to wear it out? I've been shooting an old Thompson Center .54 caliber Renegade for almost that long and for the longest time it was my only rifle. I'd hate to guess how many rounds I have put through that rifle. It still shoots good though. I have shot a lot of different powders through it as well.

roundball

Not trying to be cynical, butI wouldn't trust many "absolute statements" like that thaton the Internet...IMO those kinds of questions need to be put to engineers in the business.

What I live by is the industry rule of thumb when using 3F...which I personally askedTC about for verification.....and thatis to reduce 2F load data by 15% so the 3F chargeoperates in the same pressure range as the 2F charge would have.

ie: if you normally use 100grns 2F, then use 85grns 3F and pressures are in the same ballpark.
Gets meall the benefits of faster ignition and low fouling without any negatives of higher then normal pressure.

I suppose large volumes of large3F powder charges could begin a form of "throat erosion" it the area where the ball is seated...gas cutting the lands enough where blowby could begin around the patched ball, affecting accuracy...no idea how many shots that would take though...I'd certainly guess thousands...and in that light,I can't imagine anyone intentionally using that many of high power3F charges...the recoil itself wasnoticeably violent on the experiments I ran using full size charges of 3F in place of 2F.

My barrels getapowder-puff diet of mild 50-60grn target loads of 3Fon the weekends...then an occasionaldeer hunting shot each fall using a 90grn charge of 3F...19% belowthe max2F chargefor a given caliber.

Tree climber

really don't know how many.I do know when I first started to shoot,I didn't really clean it like I should have. when I would get it out , there would be signs of rust in the barrel. that may have had effect on the ware. I don't think it had that much or they would have said something at T/C. it was never left for more than a week at a time.we shoot all the time.

I do know it was in the range of 30,000 to 40,000 shots.I use to shoot every weekend ,Sat. and Sun.we had a good range and several of us would compete and try all the fancy shots and stuff.we even tried the axe on the target,trying to split a ball.I cut a sliver off a ball one time in all my years.we would try to strick the old kitchen matches.we did do that a time or two.we would take plastic coke bottles and shoot through the opening and hit the bottom without hitting the opening.you know all those trick shots.
just having fun for years.
so I can't really say on the #;a bunch.