Colorado regulations, Powerbelts, and Sabots
01-10-2006, 04:54 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Posts: 1,470
Colorado regulations, Powerbelts, and Sabots
Roskoe was remarking that the DOW was thinking that the line between muzzleloading and high powered rifle was so thin that the DOW felt compelled to intervene, ergo, the ban on sabots to make the hunt more primitive. I've been thinking about it too. I really don't see howrestricting sabot use is making muzzleloading more difficult or challengingin Coloradoduring ML season. The rut is peaking, and the bulls can be called by bugles and cow talk alike. Since we have to shoot open sights, it seems to me, that flatter shooting sabots are only marginally flatter at the ranges most are shooting from.
I've come to realize something about our regulations. They accommodate the powerbelts perfectly. In fact, they almost seem to be designed just for powerbelts. In colorado, the minimum projectile weight for .50 cal is 210 grain while for .45 caliber the minimum is 170 grains. These weights neatly take in the very lightest, that is all, of powerbelt bullets except for the big game bullet. Coincidence? Maybe so. But lets take a deeper look at it.
The roundball for either .50 cal or .45 cal are now illegal. People who own these calibers and wish to continue shooting roundball must now buy .54 caliber rifles. Those that don't must use a different projectile. The nearest thing to a roundball is a 223 powerbelt. I wonder if any did this.
Also get this, a minimum of 50 cal is required for Elk. So what we have is regulations which allow the use of a 2321 ft/sec 223 grain .50 calpowerbelt and prohibits the use of a 1600 ft/sec 325 grain .45 calhornady great plains bullet. A bullet I might add which though prohibited, is a far better Elk bullet. Do the regulations really make the hunt more primitive, I would contend they do not.And does the DOW care about the humaneness of how we take Elk? Perhaps Roskoe is right, maybe, they actually don't.
Is it possible that Powerbelt designed there entire product line around Colorado's regulations? Or is it possible that Colorado designed its regulations around Powerbelt's product line. It really makes me wonder. The uncanniness of the relationship makes me suspect that one is a chicken, while the other, well, an egg. I just don't know which came first.
The next time you come to Colorado, please come prepared with all your bullets with you. Because what you may find at the nearest Walmart is stacks of powerbelt bullets of weight 295 or maybe 223's (both legal for elk, all powerbelts are legal for elk)with the hornady 385'ssold out.
There may only be one bullet manufacture left unscathed by the Colorado regulations. If there is, it is definitely the powerbelts.
If there are moves in your states to revamp the allowed projectiles. Beware, what happened in Colorado, can also happen in your state too.
Happy Hunting, Phil
I've come to realize something about our regulations. They accommodate the powerbelts perfectly. In fact, they almost seem to be designed just for powerbelts. In colorado, the minimum projectile weight for .50 cal is 210 grain while for .45 caliber the minimum is 170 grains. These weights neatly take in the very lightest, that is all, of powerbelt bullets except for the big game bullet. Coincidence? Maybe so. But lets take a deeper look at it.
The roundball for either .50 cal or .45 cal are now illegal. People who own these calibers and wish to continue shooting roundball must now buy .54 caliber rifles. Those that don't must use a different projectile. The nearest thing to a roundball is a 223 powerbelt. I wonder if any did this.
Also get this, a minimum of 50 cal is required for Elk. So what we have is regulations which allow the use of a 2321 ft/sec 223 grain .50 calpowerbelt and prohibits the use of a 1600 ft/sec 325 grain .45 calhornady great plains bullet. A bullet I might add which though prohibited, is a far better Elk bullet. Do the regulations really make the hunt more primitive, I would contend they do not.And does the DOW care about the humaneness of how we take Elk? Perhaps Roskoe is right, maybe, they actually don't.
Is it possible that Powerbelt designed there entire product line around Colorado's regulations? Or is it possible that Colorado designed its regulations around Powerbelt's product line. It really makes me wonder. The uncanniness of the relationship makes me suspect that one is a chicken, while the other, well, an egg. I just don't know which came first.
The next time you come to Colorado, please come prepared with all your bullets with you. Because what you may find at the nearest Walmart is stacks of powerbelt bullets of weight 295 or maybe 223's (both legal for elk, all powerbelts are legal for elk)with the hornady 385'ssold out.
There may only be one bullet manufacture left unscathed by the Colorado regulations. If there is, it is definitely the powerbelts.
If there are moves in your states to revamp the allowed projectiles. Beware, what happened in Colorado, can also happen in your state too.
Happy Hunting, Phil
01-10-2006, 06:46 AM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fargo, ND
Posts: 1,800
RE: Colorado regulations, Powerbelts, and Sabots
I like how we have to have full size bore projectiles. I dont like how you cant shoot around ball in the 50cal or 45cal. Are you sure that is right? I have never seen that in the regulations. I do think it is reasonable to say you must have a 50cal or larger for elk.
01-10-2006, 07:06 AM
#3
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 714
RE: Colorado regulations, Powerbelts, and Sabots
Hunting regulations seldom make sense.
For example, my home state legalized smokeless this year for muzzleloaders (which can really improve velocity), however when asked about 40 caliber bullets (which are illegal) an offical of the Illinois DNR gave me this answer:
Another interesting fact about Illinois regs, a 45 caliber muzzleloader shooting a round ball is legal. The roundball for a 45 measures .440 and weighs 128 grains. The smallest 40 caliber bullet is 150 I think.
I'm sure every state has dumb regs written by folks who don't know a muzzle from a breech. These are just a sample of Illinois dumb ones.
For example, my home state legalized smokeless this year for muzzleloaders (which can really improve velocity), however when asked about 40 caliber bullets (which are illegal) an offical of the Illinois DNR gave me this answer:
The same projectile specifications (.44 caliber) apply to both shotguns and muzzleloaders. While that regulation predates my tenure here, I'm guessing that the reason it was put into place in the beginning was an attempt to keep projectile size fairly large and limit velocity (i.e., and therefore distance). Part of the same package as prohibiting use of high powered rifles.
I'm sure every state has dumb regs written by folks who don't know a muzzle from a breech. These are just a sample of Illinois dumb ones.
01-10-2006, 08:34 AM
#4
Spike
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 21
RE: Colorado regulations, Powerbelts, and Sabots
Speaking of Colorado Conicals,I found some of the Precision Rifle "Colorado Conicals" in the bargin bin at Cabela's yesterday. Bought a couple of packs to run through the new gun, these are .54 caliber and weigh in at 500gr.(big chunk of lead).I got them for 4.99$ for 20, they have 3 more packs left and I may go get them..........never know, might make Colorado again someday.
01-10-2006, 09:17 AM
#5
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Colorado regulations, Powerbelts, and Sabots
This is a good point to remember and someting all of us should keep in mind when you plan a hunting trip to a State different from your own. Be sure and know the regulations and restrictions you are gonig to be facing. Also make sure that the rifle you intend to use is readyto work in that environment. For instance if your rifle was the best sabot shooting rifle in the world, it would be of little value in Colorado it seems.
01-10-2006, 02:48 PM
#6
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,127
RE: Colorado regulations, Powerbelts, and Sabots
Actually, the ban on sabots, pellets, and scopes was a compromise solution that came about the year after the Colorado Wildlife Commission banned all in-line guns. The ban on in-line guns was imposed when a small special interest group called the "Colorado State Muzzleloading Association"convinced the Wildlife Commission it was in the general public interest; andit wasimplementedwithout much public input and against the recommendations of the field staff (game wardens) of the Colorado Division of Wildlife.
This "Association" is a group of several hundred traditionalists who hunt with Hawken type rifles and are also involved in mountain man rendezvous activites. This group was, at the time, also the only organized association that presented viewpoints to the Wildlife Commission. When the regulation banning in-lines went into effect, there were an estimated 7,000 hunters in Colorado using in-line guns. This caused such an uproar among the muzzle loading hunting community that arecall of the entire Wildlife Commission was seriously discussed. The ban on in-line guns was reversed the following year, but not without additional discussion on where the new technology in modern muzzleloading was going to lead. This was when the ban on sabots, pellets, and scopes came into being. They have since banned smokeless powder and red dot scopes as well.
You got to love this process . . . .
This "Association" is a group of several hundred traditionalists who hunt with Hawken type rifles and are also involved in mountain man rendezvous activites. This group was, at the time, also the only organized association that presented viewpoints to the Wildlife Commission. When the regulation banning in-lines went into effect, there were an estimated 7,000 hunters in Colorado using in-line guns. This caused such an uproar among the muzzle loading hunting community that arecall of the entire Wildlife Commission was seriously discussed. The ban on in-line guns was reversed the following year, but not without additional discussion on where the new technology in modern muzzleloading was going to lead. This was when the ban on sabots, pellets, and scopes came into being. They have since banned smokeless powder and red dot scopes as well.
You got to love this process . . . .
01-10-2006, 07:23 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
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Join Date: Jan 2006
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Posts: 1,470
RE: Colorado regulations, Powerbelts, and Sabots
Sharpshooter wrote:
I like how we have to have full size bore projectiles. I dont like how you cant shoot around ball in the 50cal or 45cal. Are you sure that is right?
Sharpshooter,
I am pretty sure the weight of a 50 cal roundball is in the neighberhood of 175 grains. A .54 cal roundball is around 225 grains. So with the weight limitations a .50 roundball would be prohibited. If I am wrong about the weight, I maybe wrong about this. However, if a .50 cal roundball is less than 210 grains and a 45 cal roundbal is less than 170 grains, then both are prohibited.
Happy Hunting, Phil
I like how we have to have full size bore projectiles. I dont like how you cant shoot around ball in the 50cal or 45cal. Are you sure that is right?
Sharpshooter,
I am pretty sure the weight of a 50 cal roundball is in the neighberhood of 175 grains. A .54 cal roundball is around 225 grains. So with the weight limitations a .50 roundball would be prohibited. If I am wrong about the weight, I maybe wrong about this. However, if a .50 cal roundball is less than 210 grains and a 45 cal roundbal is less than 170 grains, then both are prohibited.
Happy Hunting, Phil
01-10-2006, 07:38 PM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location:
Posts: 1,470
RE: Colorado regulations, Powerbelts, and Sabots
Roscoe wrote:
"This "Association" is a group of several hundred traditionalists who hunt with Hawken type rifles and are also involved in mountain man rendezvous activites. This group was, at the time, also the only organized association that presented viewpoints to the Wildlife Commission."
Yes, I know some members. I hate for them to catch me at walmart's hunting department, the discussionsoften gets tothe inline "cheaters". I should draw antlered elk next year.I not sure if I amhunting with my hawken or my inline though. With open sights, at the range, my hawken actually shoots better and it loads easier.I'll get it all worked out before season.
Happy Hunting, Phil
"This "Association" is a group of several hundred traditionalists who hunt with Hawken type rifles and are also involved in mountain man rendezvous activites. This group was, at the time, also the only organized association that presented viewpoints to the Wildlife Commission."
Yes, I know some members. I hate for them to catch me at walmart's hunting department, the discussionsoften gets tothe inline "cheaters". I should draw antlered elk next year.I not sure if I amhunting with my hawken or my inline though. With open sights, at the range, my hawken actually shoots better and it loads easier.I'll get it all worked out before season.
Happy Hunting, Phil
