RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

mayguy wrote:

"I tried BM3 and it was, at least, 200fps faster than T7. I had some accuracy problems and some large diffrences in velocity, from shot to shot. It is very clean and I am going to experiment with it some more(different grs. of powder and different bullets). You only get a little white residue when you patch between shots. It was quite warm(nearly 80 deg.) when I tried it. I am going to try again in cool weather.

That is incredible. I have read that weighing charges helps with the velocity distributions. This powder is as close to smokeless at we may ever get. It has an incredible amount of energy in it and, I think, should be used with a little more caution. But overall its slower burning nature and broader pressure curves are supposed to subject our muzzleloaders to less pressure than equal volumes of blackpowder.

Come on, did you clock them? What was the average for the 460 and the 444?

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

1 - yes
2 - yes
3 - yes? (haven't recovered bullets, but did get a deer this year)
4 - i have been able to get good groups (only sighting in at 50 yds) with BP; didn't have as good of luck with sabots

I have always been a bit skeptical of the copper hollow points, but still use them. I would like to see them come out with a lead jacketed hollow point (like you might see in a .44 cal bullet) or simply a lead nosed bullet (like a rifle cartridge). just seems like they would work well (better?)

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

Roskoe: Yes, my best elk load to date was 95 grains 777 with a 405 powerbelt aerotip. However, haven't been able to get one into an elk yet.

I am torn between going back to the 444 grain flat nose and sticking with the 405 aerotip. The only bull I have killed with a flat nose on a double lung/heart shot had an exit hole that was no better than the entrance. However two things made me think that was ok. First a 50 caliber hole through the chest is probably bigger than any 30-06 wound channel, and the elk took only 1 step and went down for good.

Just thinking it might be better to have a more bone crunching bullet if I had a not so good placement. Anyway, I am going to see how they shoot.

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

This is a very informative thread. I'm glad that the 250gr. Shockwaves work in my ML. I have taken two deer with it and they didn't complain. I can also load at least three of them without cleaning the barrel. I'm lucky I guess. One of the deer that I shot was a neck shot towards the back of the head and 3" section of the spine was convered to dust and goo. So I feel like the Shockwaves would do find on a shoulder blade.

Tom

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

A poster put up a picture of what a 250 grain Shockwave did to the shoulder of a moose. After seeing the hole through that and how is shattered everything, I was more then impressed with their ability to penetrate. Of couse he was shooting an Omega with 150 grains of pellets. That's a strong load. I think 100 grains and that same bullet would have no problem on a deer... Congrats on the deer.

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

Hi Sabotloader,

Question #1 - How many of you use PowerBelts because of the ease of loading? I would offer that this is the main reason why most folks use them. They are "easy" and blend nicely into the marketing fold of the modern muzzleloader. I am not picking on Powerbelt because they have certainly come up with a better mousetrap from a sales perspective. But I would say easy is the main reason. Perhaps that's a good reason?

Question #2 - How many of you use PowerBelts because of the ease of loading the follow-up shots... (when you do not have time to run a damp patch)?I'm sure folks are carrying speedloaders with powerbeltsbecause of a fast follow-up shot. This is somewhat marketing-speak, because what is fast in muzzleloading terms? You can load any other slip-fit conical just as fast. I can load a PRB pretty fast from a loading block. The fast MLfollowup is really a myth for many (if not most?)hunting situations. You still need to go through the motions of loading, de-priming and re-priming and then target aquisition and while all of this is going on the intended game is supposed to be just standing there waiting, which does in fact happen. But it only takes a couple of seconds for a missed or poor shot to result in a lost opportunity. Even with an autoloader.

All this said, I do typically carry a slip-fit conical of some flavor (normally a HornadyGreat Plains) for a quicker second shot. In the event I would need a second or finishing shot. I have yet to need a fast followup shot with exception to more than one animal opportunity. In those instances I was still able to load either a sabot or a PRB quick enough to be able to down an additional animal. The beasts cooperated in the those instances by not even knowing where I was on the initial shot and just stood there. On other occassions, I could have had an autoloader and the opportunity would have still dissapeared.

I don't buy into the "fast followup marketing". Yes you can with practice and the correct equipment and preparation rapidly reload. Along the same lines as pellets (of which I am not a fan). Pellets are supposed to save us huge amounts of time in loading and re-loading.

Question #3 - How many of you use PowerBelts because of their performance, both down range and their peformance on bringing the animal down? I have heard quite a few stories of Powerbelts not performing well on game. Excessive fragmentation is one routine comment and in-adequate penetration is the other. I have actually seen the excessive fragmentation and the poor penetration on four different deer. These could all be attributed to poor shot placement which is an essential element. But I doubt this is the case in all cases and certainly not in the deer I helped recover and one deer that I killed with a PRB afterit had been first shot in the shoulderwith a 295gr Powerbelt. I feel that the Powerbelt is among the worst performing projectiles from a consistancy standpoint. I would say in the lighter grains not even as effective as a PRB. At least I know that a PRB will penetrate. You can't always say that about a lighter weight powerbelt. Not much data to back that statement up though, just what I have seen in the field after kills and heard on the web. But Ibelieve there are vastly greater performing projectiles. The trade-off is the greatest performing projectiles don't load as easy as the powerbelt.

As you can likely gather, I am not a fan of the Powerbelt. But I am not saying they are not a good product because their ease of usehas many more folks hunting with ML's that would have given up on muzzleloading due to a lack of patience and effort. I don't mind that muzzleloading takes more effort. That's one of the things that I love and cherishabout it.

I have shot them on occassion when folks have given me somefor targeting fun and now and then I will toss a 348gr Aerotip along with 80gr or so of loose for my second shot. One that is only for finishing, not for accuracy or my one shot.

I have not purchased any Powerbelts, but I have shot about200 or soof them that were given to me in various weights in several different rifles.

If I were to hunt with one, I would hunt with either the 348 or the 405 grain Aerotip as I have seen kills with those that have performed much better with a blend of penetration and expansion.

1) I have had issues with powerbelts not releasing the "skirt" and theneither key-holing down range or accuracy shift on POI. I have found skirts at 100 yards at my range. For this reason alone I don't trust them. Plus the accuracy has not been as good as with other projectilesat the higher velocities that I like to hunt with. I find that you can only push Powerbelts so fast and then they "strip" the rifling.
2) I suspect that Powerbelts are too soft and fragment too much. I prefer a more conrolled expansion and more consistant penetration. I prefer a PRB (Patched Roundball)over a powerbelt.
3) Because they are really slip-fit (in some of my rifles they will all but drop to the breech), that upon inital firing, they raise off of the powder charge. This could be where I could have had accuracy inconsistancy.
4) After contacting Powerbelt regarding some accuracy issues I was having, they suggested that I shoot them from a fouled bore. They do seem to POI better on a fouled bore. The only problem for me is, that in 36 years I have never hunting on a fouled or otherwise dirty bore. The POI that I rely on is from a clean bore. I detail clean with alcohol-windex patches in-between each shot when working on hunting loads regardless of the rifle or the load (PRB, Conical or Sabot). I find my best consistant POI accuracy from a clean bore.
5) Powerbelt is owned by Blackpowder ProductsIncorporated, the same giant that owns CVA. Ordinarily this would not make any difference to me. But I am not a fan of CVA or BPI. Thus not a fan of Powerbelt either and would not recommend nor purchase any of their products regardless if they were the greatest thing on earth.

I'm sure that my comments could be taken as Powerbelt bashing. Which is not what I intend. I do think they are a hugely successful product in sales and general performance and do offer folks a fairly easy loading alternative which for some folks is the ticket. A dear friend of mine shoots the 348gr Aerotip on 95gr 777 FFG from his Knight MK-85. Why? Because after a terrible shoulder injury, he has great painful difficulty loading everything else and the 348PBelt was the only projectile he and I could find(I did most ofthe testing for him) thatthe easiest for him to load and still hold decent accuracy. He has harvested three bucks and one bear with the 348gr Pbelt.

Regards,

:)

Tahquamenon

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

I clocked them with a chronograph,I also hand load handgun ammo. I don't have any of the info from my tests (got thrown away buy accident). I didn't try any of the ones you asked about. I did try one heavy bullet, 375gr. Buffalo Bullet, this is just what I think I remember about the vel.---- 110grs. BM3, about 1900fps out of my Omega. When the weather clears up I will try it again and report my findings. I remember it was always faster than 777 with equal weights of powder and bullet. I am going to try weighing some charges and see if that helps the spread. GOOD HUNTING

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

Tahquamenon

Excellent, well writtenresponse. You shared a lot of the thoughts that I do not have the ability to write.

Most of my point is or was that in todays world we do not have to shoot PB's just for the ease of loading the different variety of sabots that are available make loading a lot easier + there are really some really decent slip conicals out there. It is my belief that eiter of these alternative would offer a better all around projectile than a PB.

Thank you for your editorial

mike

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

Yes to all three. I've never had any issues with PB's. The deer I have taken with them were all recovered with 80% dropping in place and the rest running no more than 40 yards. If it isn't broke why fix it?

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

Firehawk7309

And that is my error and not one of my questions - if they work for you and you are satisfied - use em.

But on the other hand if we all accepted what we have as the best - there would be no need for invention or investigation. So that makes me an offender of the this very point - Nosler Partitions are the best so I look for no other projectile in crunch time. The only reason I shoot other projectiles is I can not afford to shot Noslers for everthing and certainly somebody must make a projectile that is as good but cost a whole lot less - and I am hoping the Gold Dot is that projectile - but I will still shoot Noslers at elk.