RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

Roskoe said:

"Back in post #9, pglasglow indicated that all Powerbelts were hollowpoints. They make a 444 gr. flatpoint in .50 caliber."

The 444 gr. flatpoints you bought didn't have a gree plastic insert in the nose of the bullet? I've actually never seen one (444 flat pointpowerbelt)in person. I thought I had seen on their website, the one on the left below.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

I got mine from Cabela's a couple years back. They look just like the 405 gr. hollowpoint (which I think the one you show on the right in your photo), except without the hollowpoint. Anyway, I was mainly responding to your comment that somehow the Colorado Division of Wildlife regarded the non-sabot projectiles as more effective/lethal when they banned the sabots. I was a part of that discussion and can assure you just the opposite was the case. They were afraid the line between high performance muzzleloaders and medium caliber centerfire rifles was started to blur together.

But I very much appreciate your point of view. I like shooting theseconicals and have seen some bigelk wobble andfall after being hit with such a large chunk of lead. I remember just this past September the soundof a 410 grain conical hitting and elk in the ribs at about 150 yards. There was no doubt that this was a good hit. I alsoagree with the comments about Buffalo hunting withbig lead conicals. And I respect each shooter's preference to use guns and loads at various levels of traditionalism and performance. Thanks for providing a bunch of thought provoking comments to this topic. Regards. Roskoe

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

I am thrilled with the variety of choices we havewith muzzleloaders these days. By the way, I run some ballistics on the shockwave load. Used 2050 fps, is that about right for 130 gr. pyrodex pellets? Very flat shooting, a good round.

There was a thread where the question was asked, what conical does the most damage. SteveBNy posted a load he used. My congratulatory remarks may have given the impression that I only support the use of heavy conicals. This, I hope by now, is clear to everyone not true. I just found it refreshing, that he had chosen a moderate powder charge and a heavy conical to take his most recent kill, a doe at 110 yards. This load has always been at our disposal, even with our old fashioned sidelocks (I still have and use the original I .50 T/C hawkin I built as a teenager some 27 years ago). Today, in an era of 150 grain charges and saboted boattails, it was just refreshing to seeSteve's choice of load. Not because it is more traditional, but because for his hunting situation, it is just better. In the woods of the East,I would suspect that 110 yards is a pretty distant shot. At that range, the conical is very accurate and flat shooting enough. He probably could have (had a gun rated for it) increased his charge to 90 or 100 grains, but didn't. There is no need to over do it, that is also refreshing.

For the record, I support the saboted loads we discussed wholeheartedly. They are better suited for longer shooting, especially for the inexperienced marksman. Out West, we can be challenged to get close enough with our muzzleloaders.

Regarding the regulations, your guess is as good as mine. We have to use open sights, so I don't see, for most, that taking away their sabots are hurting their chances much. The length twice the diameter doesn't make any sense either. 1:28 twist doesn't allow much longer than a 1" conical in 50 cal. anyway.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

I have a question, when I was trying different loads I also tried different powders When I got up to about 120 gr the777 started melting down the plastic on the power belts but the rs and the AP shot better with heavy loads I took the AP{FF} up to 150 gr and still grouped 2.5.
Does 777 burn a lot hotter?
Lee

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

Lemoyne said:

"I have a question, when I was trying different loads I also tried different powders When I got up to about 120 gr the777 started melting down the plastic on the power belts but the rs and the AP shot better with heavy loads I took the AP{FF} up to 150 gr and still grouped 2.5.
Does 777 burn a lot hotter?"

Oh my yes. By volume, T7 is 15% hotter. Pressure-wise it was probably like putting 200 grains of pyrodex pellets in your muzzleloader (assuming loose T7). Do you own a Savage? Or do you like taking risks?Please don't do that anymore.

Limit loads of loose powder to 120 grains. If T7 or BMag3, limit to 100 grains. Using big powerbelts? Limit your charges even more. Blackpowder is great fun until someone gets hurt. Remember, the maximum charges are only for light saboted bullets. Lighter powerbelts are just going to shatter on your game with maximum loads.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

This has been an interesting thread. I haven't understood anyone to be down on anyone else's opinions - just debating the various issues.
Concerning the non-hollow pointed powerbelts, the only one I have seen is their Dangerous Game bullet, which has a solid steel point. They are on the far right of the picture (if it loads for me). At $62.99 per 15, I doubt that anyone would want to use them for anything but - well, dangerous game!
To answer the original question of this post, I use PB's because of ease of loading. I would love to find something else I CAN load. So far, everything I've tried has been extremely difficult.
From all I've been reading about PB's, it seems to me like I will just need to be more selective about the shots I take with them. I have shot many deer with a .30 cal 165 gr. bullet directly in the front, or quartering to, that passed clear through the vitals and ended up in the ham, or even exited the body. I wouldn't try that with a .223, however, but wait for a broadside shot or not shoot at all. Sounds like the same must be observed with the PB's, as they tend to break up upon hitting heavy bone.

IM jaybe

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

jaybe

And that goes to my point....

What gun are you using?
Which powder?
Have you tried any of the new thinner polymere sabots on the market?

When I first started using sabots made of the old plastics I would have given up also - infact I did, but kept experimenting.

I believe there is a sabot out there will work, god knows there is a ton of different bullets that will work. Purchasing sabot/bullet packs really is not the best way to go - they package a cetain sabot with a certain and the setup my fit a majority of the guns but not all.

I need to qualify that - if you are shooting a 50 cal - and you pratice good barrel care there is probably a sabot out there. If you are using a 54 or 45 things are narrowed.

Jaybe - thanks for the reply

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

Hey Jaybe,

If most of your shooting is 120 yards or less, before you pass on any shots do at least try this.


Logon on to Cabelas and order some 444 flat points. Get enough to sight in and hunt with. IsayCabelas because, well, they have them. If you have an inline rated for 150 grainstry this.

First never use 150 grains with the 444[:o]!

Put in75 grain T7 or 90 grains RS or BP and sight in dead on at 15 yards. Now this is not exact, but it should put you close to zero at 100 yards. Go ahead and test at 50 or 100 yds. At 100 yds, if you are above line of sight your muzzle velocity exceed 1400 fps, the opposite is true if you are below line of sight.

If below you can try increasing the charge. If you weigh charges try a 5 grain increase. To high? decrease by 2. Too low? increase by 2. Then increment by one until you zero at 100 yards.

If you measure by volume, increase 5 grains until you are above zero at 100 yards. Stop there. Your zero is a little beyond 100 yards.

Now lets look at the ballistics:





Range
Velocity
Energy
Moment
Elev
Wind
Lead
Slope
Time

(yards)
(ft/sec)
(ft-lbs)
(lb-sec)
(inches)
(inches)
(inches)
(in/yd)
(sec)

0
1400.0
1932.2
2.76
---
---
---
---
0.000

10
1378.6
1873.6
2.72
-0.46
0.03
3.8
+0.096
0.022

20
1357.7
1817.2
2.68
+0.40
0.12
7.7
+0.078
0.044

30
1337.2
1762.9
2.64
+1.07
0.27
11.6
+0.059
0.066

40
1317.3
1710.7
2.60
+1.55
0.48
15.6
+0.039
0.088

50
1297.9
1660.6
2.56
+1.83
0.75
19.6
+0.018
0.111

60
1279.0
1612.6
2.52
+1.90
1.08
23.7
-0.002
0.135

70
1260.5
1566.5
2.49
+1.76
1.47
27.9
-0.024
0.158

80
1242.6
1522.3
2.45
+1.40
1.92
32.1
-0.046
0.182

90
1225.2
1479.9
2.42
+0.81
2.43
36.3
-0.069
0.207

100
1208.0
1438.7
2.38
-0.01
3.00
40.7
-0.092
0.231

110
1191.5
1399.6
2.35
-1.06
3.64
45.1
-0.117
0.256

120
1175.8
1362.9
2.32
-2.37
4.33
49.5
-0.141
0.282

Not bad is it? More than enough to take any deer. Flat enough for 120 yards. And I GUARANTEE that the 444 with .300 Sectional density is going to burrow in, bust bone, and destroy vitals on shots you would pass up with the 295 PB's.

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

Taking another stab at the ballistics chart. Muzzle Velocity 1400 fps Muzzle Energy 1932 ft-lbs , zero 100 yds



Rge Vel Energy Elev.





0
1400.0
1932.2
2.76
---
---
---
---
0.000

10
1378.6
1873.6
2.72
-0.46
0.03
3.8
+0.096
0.022

20
1357.7
1817.2
2.68
+0.40
0.12
7.7
+0.078
0.044

30
1337.2
1762.9
2.64
+1.07
0.27
11.6
+0.059
0.066

40
1317.3
1710.7
2.60
+1.55
0.48
15.6
+0.039
0.088

50
1297.9
1660.6
2.56
+1.83
0.75
19.6
+0.018
0.111

60
1279.0
1612.6
2.52
+1.90
1.08
23.7
-0.002
0.135

70
1260.5
1566.5
2.49
+1.76
1.47
27.9
-0.024
0.158

80
1242.6
1522.3
2.45
+1.40
1.92
32.1
-0.046
0.182

90
1225.2
1479.9
2.42
+0.81
2.43
36.3
-0.069
0.207

100
1208.0
1438.7
2.38
-0.01
3.00
40.7
-0.092
0.231

110
1191.5
1399.6
2.35
-1.06
3.64
45.1
-0.117
0.256

120
1175.8
1362.9
2.32
-2.37
4.33
49.5
-0.141
0.282

Hope this reads better!

Happy Hunting, Phil

RE: Another -> PowderBelt Question
 

Guy I'm sorry for the bad use of space. It was unintentional. The problem is fixed now see below.

Jaybe,

As I said before, it isn't bad. At 100 yards you have almost twice the energy required to take deer. You could even harvest a buffalo with it. Think about that. A 50-90-444 sharps buffalo rifle is sleeping dormant in your muzzleloader ;). Now I GUARANTEE that with the 444's sectional density you are going to burrow in, bust bone, and destroy vitals on shots you would pass up with the 295 PB's.

Happy hunting, Phil