sabotloader bullet/sabot combos
12-03-2005, 06:13 PM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Mount Vernon Ohio
Posts: 178
sabotloader bullet/sabot combos
I know you dont shoot SST's. Do you mind sharing or giving me a little advice which bullet/sabot combinations you like? Do you use a .44 caliber bullet? or a 45 caliber bulletlike the SST's? I am looking to do a little experimenting with different bullet/sabot combos in my encore before Ohios late muzzleloader season...thanks in advance
PS- my powder charge typically is 2 pyrodex pellets
PS- my powder charge typically is 2 pyrodex pellets
12-03-2005, 06:58 PM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: sabotloader bullet/sabot combos
lowtempguru
The sabot you use will depend upon the rifle and caliber that you use. I shoot 2 Remington 700ml's on is a 24" barrel and the other is a 26" + I shoot an A&H, then there are several different sidelocks that I use 2 TC Hawkens -fast twist barrels (50 cal), 2 TC Hawkens 1/48 twist 50 cals, a TC Renegade 1/48 twist - 54 caland a Lyman Trade Rifle 1/48 54 cal. All of my barrels are rather tight and I need to use the thinner sabots. The MMP HPH-24 is an asume sabot and has worked for really well - also use a lot of Nosler Sabots, which worke really well with the .451 Noslers, but they arenow made by MMP also.
When I first started shooting I tried to shoot .429/.430 bullets because they have the better ballistics - but I did have some problems with them in the 1/48 twist guns, so I switched and have stayed with .451/.452 bullets + they are closer to bore size. I am anOLD centerfire rifle shooter/hunter - I am extremly confident in the abilty of the Nosler Partition bullets - so for hunting with the inlines thats what I use a 45 cal (.451) -.260 Nosler HP for deer and 45 cal (.451) 300 grain Nosler Partition Protected Point for elk. The last two years with the advent of the MMP HPH .458 Orange sabot I made the change to a .458 (45/70) Nosler Partition PP bullet.It shoots really accurately - well heck they all do.
These bullets are to expensive to play with and I am to cheap to waist them so for all the shooting I do.So forfooling around I shoot equivelent weights in Hornady but the are .452's. One of the reason I do not shoot the SST's/Shockwaves because of cost & sabots... I purchase boxes of bullets and packages of sabots - saves a lot of money.
I will also tell you I am trying a new to me bullet this ML deer season a 250 grain Speer Gold Dot in one of the fast twist TC. So far it really has been pretty impressive but I will let you after I shoot a whitetail with it.
Usually... TC barrels are rather tight - so I would believe that you will also need the thinner type sabots especially if you are loading .452 bullets. TC Mag Express sabots should godown your gun and I think they are probably MMP's also. I think thinnest sabot today is being made by Harvester - their new "crush rib" - I use them for a really quick speed load hunting - they are not as loose as a powerbelt - but the do go down easy.
I am not sure that I gave you the information you were after, and if I didn't please ask again.
The sabot you use will depend upon the rifle and caliber that you use. I shoot 2 Remington 700ml's on is a 24" barrel and the other is a 26" + I shoot an A&H, then there are several different sidelocks that I use 2 TC Hawkens -fast twist barrels (50 cal), 2 TC Hawkens 1/48 twist 50 cals, a TC Renegade 1/48 twist - 54 caland a Lyman Trade Rifle 1/48 54 cal. All of my barrels are rather tight and I need to use the thinner sabots. The MMP HPH-24 is an asume sabot and has worked for really well - also use a lot of Nosler Sabots, which worke really well with the .451 Noslers, but they arenow made by MMP also.
When I first started shooting I tried to shoot .429/.430 bullets because they have the better ballistics - but I did have some problems with them in the 1/48 twist guns, so I switched and have stayed with .451/.452 bullets + they are closer to bore size. I am anOLD centerfire rifle shooter/hunter - I am extremly confident in the abilty of the Nosler Partition bullets - so for hunting with the inlines thats what I use a 45 cal (.451) -.260 Nosler HP for deer and 45 cal (.451) 300 grain Nosler Partition Protected Point for elk. The last two years with the advent of the MMP HPH .458 Orange sabot I made the change to a .458 (45/70) Nosler Partition PP bullet.It shoots really accurately - well heck they all do.
These bullets are to expensive to play with and I am to cheap to waist them so for all the shooting I do.So forfooling around I shoot equivelent weights in Hornady but the are .452's. One of the reason I do not shoot the SST's/Shockwaves because of cost & sabots... I purchase boxes of bullets and packages of sabots - saves a lot of money.
I will also tell you I am trying a new to me bullet this ML deer season a 250 grain Speer Gold Dot in one of the fast twist TC. So far it really has been pretty impressive but I will let you after I shoot a whitetail with it.
Usually... TC barrels are rather tight - so I would believe that you will also need the thinner type sabots especially if you are loading .452 bullets. TC Mag Express sabots should godown your gun and I think they are probably MMP's also. I think thinnest sabot today is being made by Harvester - their new "crush rib" - I use them for a really quick speed load hunting - they are not as loose as a powerbelt - but the do go down easy.
I am not sure that I gave you the information you were after, and if I didn't please ask again.
12-04-2005, 07:01 AM
#3
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Mount Vernon Ohio
Posts: 178
RE: sabotloader bullet/sabot combos
Sabotloader, Imust admit I am green as a gord when it comes to mixing and matching bullets and sabots, When I moved to the farm and switched from ducks to deer Ibought my muzzleloaders,picked upa couple of boxes of 300gr SST's and stuck with them, I too own a Remington 700 ML with the 24" barrel, as well as my Encore which has a 26" barrel with 1in28 twist. I'm going to head to the gunshop tomarrow and pick up a couple of boxes of the nosler bullets and thinner bulk sabots you suggested.Thanks for the tip on the harvester sabots for my field speed loads. I have a 4 weeks until our muzzleloader season to try out the loads you suggested, I am going to drive them with 2 50gr pyrodex pellets and remington STS 209 primers out of my SS Encore.
12-04-2005, 09:02 AM
#4
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: sabotloader bullet/sabot combos
There are a couple people on these forums that really know their stuff when it comes to sabots and bullets. I respect their opinions and information a great deal. Sabotloader is one of them. He is a great source of ballistic information and bullet performance information. Quite some time back while talking with him I got started on the .458 diameter bullets. I have not tried as many different combinations as he has, but the ones I settled on give me some extreme accuracy and down range thump. Nosler, Barnes, and a few other brands make some excellent high quality accurate hunting loads. I just wish they were cheaper soa fellow could play with them more without breaking the bank. When a single projectile pushes the dollar a pop mark, it just causes me to dig my heels in. Maybe that's why I do not shoot Powerbelts anymore. I spent a small fortune shooting them off. Barnes Expanders are another bullet. Accuracy is outstanding with them. Down range performance from what some have told me on this forum is fantastic. But they are a work up a load and then hunt with them only bullet also.
Maybe after I hit the lottery, I will get a box or two of every brand out there and really have some fun...
Maybe after I hit the lottery, I will get a box or two of every brand out there and really have some fun...
12-04-2005, 09:34 AM
#5
Fork Horn
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Georgia
Posts: 182
RE: sabotloader bullet/sabot combos
Me and you both on the lottocayugad. Thanks to you and Sabotloaders posts on all these different loads,my manroom is starting to look like a small muzzleloader supply house and my wallet is a lot lighter. Thanks Guys!!
I just keep telling her you guys say I have to have all of this stuff. I don't think she believes that, but she hasn't called me on it yet.
I just keep telling her you guys say I have to have all of this stuff. I don't think she believes that, but she hasn't called me on it yet.
12-04-2005, 09:45 AM
#6
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: sabotloader bullet/sabot combos
lowtempguru
You no I am trying to convince my son-in-law to move from the land of ducks, geese, & pheseants (Kennewick, WA) to the the land of snow, cold & mountains also... so far he has not made the move.
Back on subject - I have really great succes with Nosler and I am sold on them, but there are all kinds of bullet/sabot combinations out there and everyone will have their favorite. Do not let me dictate to you what to do. If you were here and you were here, and you and I were hunting togetherthat is the bullet I would suggest you start you hunting with. Here in Idaho we can use sabots - some states you can not check your regulations for ML hunting. The .451 Nosler partition 260 grain HP has worked for me from 30 yards to 111 yards and it will work beyond that, I just haven't had the opportunity beyond that. I DO hunt all year now with ML's - have not even took a centerfire out of the cabinet to the field now for probably 3-4 years. It is that infectious.
I am shooting 100 grains of loose t7-2f in the inlines, as soon as I run out of that I will change to 3f - I shoot 3f in the sidelocks. Your choice of pellets is the natural for starting they are quick and they are convienent, with time and experiance I would suggest switching to loose powder you can develope much more accurate loads that way.
Nosler's are expensive bullets, I would suggest getting one box of them and a box of .452 - (1) 260 grain speer hp's (2) 250 grain speer Gold Dots, or (3) 250 grain Hornady XTP's. Use the inexpensive bullets to do your sighting in and plinking and finalize with the Noslers. There will not be much difference in point-of-contact between any of these.
Sabots - they may be somehat difficult to get exactly what you want... Here are the web sites - MMP you can call direct and Connie and even Del himself sometimeswill get them right out to you. The Harvesters you might have to go online to order.
http://www.claybusterwads.com/harvester.html
http://www.mmpsabots.com/
One more thing, I am not a magnum load shooter so there will be people tell you that load higher - get higher BC bullets and shoot out there 200 yards like you have a centerfire -- it can be done with a ML but for me in Idaho really do not think I need that. If the right shot presented itself I would take the 200 yard shot with the load I use, using one of the scoped inlines, or 150 yards with a sidehammer (80 grains inthe 50's - 90 grains in the 54's)and not worry about it and that is normally enough for me.
Good luck, when it comes to shooting the are several excellent resources on this board - Cayugad probably shoots more than the average duck, he can go out in his back yard - me I am a retired FS employee now teaching and I live in the dern city.
You no I am trying to convince my son-in-law to move from the land of ducks, geese, & pheseants (Kennewick, WA) to the the land of snow, cold & mountains also... so far he has not made the move.
Back on subject - I have really great succes with Nosler and I am sold on them, but there are all kinds of bullet/sabot combinations out there and everyone will have their favorite. Do not let me dictate to you what to do. If you were here and you were here, and you and I were hunting togetherthat is the bullet I would suggest you start you hunting with. Here in Idaho we can use sabots - some states you can not check your regulations for ML hunting. The .451 Nosler partition 260 grain HP has worked for me from 30 yards to 111 yards and it will work beyond that, I just haven't had the opportunity beyond that. I DO hunt all year now with ML's - have not even took a centerfire out of the cabinet to the field now for probably 3-4 years. It is that infectious.
I am shooting 100 grains of loose t7-2f in the inlines, as soon as I run out of that I will change to 3f - I shoot 3f in the sidelocks. Your choice of pellets is the natural for starting they are quick and they are convienent, with time and experiance I would suggest switching to loose powder you can develope much more accurate loads that way.
Nosler's are expensive bullets, I would suggest getting one box of them and a box of .452 - (1) 260 grain speer hp's (2) 250 grain speer Gold Dots, or (3) 250 grain Hornady XTP's. Use the inexpensive bullets to do your sighting in and plinking and finalize with the Noslers. There will not be much difference in point-of-contact between any of these.
Sabots - they may be somehat difficult to get exactly what you want... Here are the web sites - MMP you can call direct and Connie and even Del himself sometimeswill get them right out to you. The Harvesters you might have to go online to order.
http://www.claybusterwads.com/harvester.html
http://www.mmpsabots.com/
One more thing, I am not a magnum load shooter so there will be people tell you that load higher - get higher BC bullets and shoot out there 200 yards like you have a centerfire -- it can be done with a ML but for me in Idaho really do not think I need that. If the right shot presented itself I would take the 200 yard shot with the load I use, using one of the scoped inlines, or 150 yards with a sidehammer (80 grains inthe 50's - 90 grains in the 54's)and not worry about it and that is normally enough for me.
Good luck, when it comes to shooting the are several excellent resources on this board - Cayugad probably shoots more than the average duck, he can go out in his back yard - me I am a retired FS employee now teaching and I live in the dern city.
12-04-2005, 01:01 PM
#8
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: sabotloader bullet/sabot combos
y_not5
My thought and shooting experiance shows me tight vs loose affects velocity - I have not seen a direct effect on accuracy - of course the less velocity the more drop. This being said if the sabot is reasonalbly tight.
I use the sabot combination that will allow me accuracy and reasonable ability to load rapidly in the woods without the use of a short starter.
With that theory in mind here is anothertarget that I have shot. One is already posted in this string.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/458.jpg
My thought and shooting experiance shows me tight vs loose affects velocity - I have not seen a direct effect on accuracy - of course the less velocity the more drop. This being said if the sabot is reasonalbly tight.
I use the sabot combination that will allow me accuracy and reasonable ability to load rapidly in the woods without the use of a short starter.
With that theory in mind here is anothertarget that I have shot. One is already posted in this string.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v130/sabotloader/458.jpg
12-05-2005, 12:20 PM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Martinsville Indiana USA
Posts: 23
RE: sabotloader bullet/sabot combos
Sabotloader, you seem to be the person to ask about a problem my brother has encountered. He bought a .50 CVA inline and liked it pretty well except for the barrel tightness. He put up with the extreme tightness for a season, expecting that it might loosen up some with use. It didn't.
This barrel is etremely tight! I shot with him recently and realized just how tight when watching him load. Took absolutely everything he could do to get the saboted load down the barrel, using something to rap on the short starter, then all his 230# (and he's fairly athletic, with very good hand strength) to advance it an inch or so at a time maximum unitl it was near the bottom, where it loosened slightly. He always cleans the gun after each use carefully, and hasn't seen any INCREASE in tightness since it was new, but also hasn't seen any loosening from getting polished in. It was no picnic even with both of us on the ramrod! I've been muzzleloading for many years and have used various load ranging from as loose as I could get by with to pretty darn tight in my .58, but never saw anyone trying to shoot a load as tight as the ones he's struggling with.
He just bought another package of bullets and sabots from a different manufacturer, and found the tightness to be the same with them.
I noticed from this thread that the Powerbelt bullets seem to be OK with most folks except for their cost. He's not into much target shooting except for the sighting in for hunting, and so the per-round cost wouldn't be much of a factor. Would the Powerbelts, in your opinion be an option he should explore? He'll be visiting the store soon to pick up another ramrod and I thought I'd suggest the Powerbelts if I can find someone in the know who also thinks they would be a good idea. We can get them immediately and still salvage some of this season, then try the looser sabots during the offseason if he wants a more economical solution longterm.
This barrel is etremely tight! I shot with him recently and realized just how tight when watching him load. Took absolutely everything he could do to get the saboted load down the barrel, using something to rap on the short starter, then all his 230# (and he's fairly athletic, with very good hand strength) to advance it an inch or so at a time maximum unitl it was near the bottom, where it loosened slightly. He always cleans the gun after each use carefully, and hasn't seen any INCREASE in tightness since it was new, but also hasn't seen any loosening from getting polished in. It was no picnic even with both of us on the ramrod! I've been muzzleloading for many years and have used various load ranging from as loose as I could get by with to pretty darn tight in my .58, but never saw anyone trying to shoot a load as tight as the ones he's struggling with.
He just bought another package of bullets and sabots from a different manufacturer, and found the tightness to be the same with them.
I noticed from this thread that the Powerbelt bullets seem to be OK with most folks except for their cost. He's not into much target shooting except for the sighting in for hunting, and so the per-round cost wouldn't be much of a factor. Would the Powerbelts, in your opinion be an option he should explore? He'll be visiting the store soon to pick up another ramrod and I thought I'd suggest the Powerbelts if I can find someone in the know who also thinks they would be a good idea. We can get them immediately and still salvage some of this season, then try the looser sabots during the offseason if he wants a more economical solution longterm.
12-05-2005, 02:18 PM
#10
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: sabotloader bullet/sabot combos
Russ-
Since your brother is shooting a CVA, the powerbelt might be exactly the way to go. Most CVA/BPI barrels will shoot powerbelts very well. The question is which weight and style. My CVA Staghorn Magnum will shoot the 245 grain Aero Tips and the 348 grain pure lead hollow points with amazing accuracy using 90 grains of Triple Se7en or 100 grains of Goex 2f. Out to 100 yards (I have a red dot on the rifle) there would not be a deer that stood a chance.
They are a slip fit conical. They load easy, and they shoot well. Just have him pull the plastic button off the bottom of the powerbelt, lube the conical spike with a little bore butter or something (lard, crisco, spit) and put the button back on before loading. I think he might like the accuracy. Also Powerbelts do not seem to like heavy loads of powder in the rifles I shoot. 100 grains is plenty of punch for them.
Since your brother is shooting a CVA, the powerbelt might be exactly the way to go. Most CVA/BPI barrels will shoot powerbelts very well. The question is which weight and style. My CVA Staghorn Magnum will shoot the 245 grain Aero Tips and the 348 grain pure lead hollow points with amazing accuracy using 90 grains of Triple Se7en or 100 grains of Goex 2f. Out to 100 yards (I have a red dot on the rifle) there would not be a deer that stood a chance.
They are a slip fit conical. They load easy, and they shoot well. Just have him pull the plastic button off the bottom of the powerbelt, lube the conical spike with a little bore butter or something (lard, crisco, spit) and put the button back on before loading. I think he might like the accuracy. Also Powerbelts do not seem to like heavy loads of powder in the rifles I shoot. 100 grains is plenty of punch for them.