Bullet diameter
11-22-2005, 09:47 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11
Bullet diameter
Hi guys...... I am back again. I do appreciate all the great input. My question this time relates to bullet diameter.
I shoot a Knight Wolverine. "Hard loading" has always been an issue until i tried the Hornady .430" XTP, 240 grain bullets. These load farily easy - which concerns me. Is there a point where a bullet can be undersized too much? I have shot the .451" bullets (which load hard) and accuracy is pretty good. The .430" seem to provide the same level of accuracy.
Am I overthinking this or is there a point where the bullet can be too small?
Thanks
I shoot a Knight Wolverine. "Hard loading" has always been an issue until i tried the Hornady .430" XTP, 240 grain bullets. These load farily easy - which concerns me. Is there a point where a bullet can be undersized too much? I have shot the .451" bullets (which load hard) and accuracy is pretty good. The .430" seem to provide the same level of accuracy.
Am I overthinking this or is there a point where the bullet can be too small?
Thanks
11-22-2005, 10:04 AM
#2
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Bullet diameter
You went from the .45 caliber to the .44 caliber. Sometimes it is necessary in order to get a better loading projectile. I often times look for a .451 diameter bullet such as a Speers to make loading easier. Remember the sabot will flare a little when fired, sealing the pressure in the barrel. The over all indicator of whether it will work or not is accuracy. You have found a good load it sounds like that loads easy.
By the way, my Wolverine II is not fussy at all about loading. I have yet to find anything it will not load.
By the way, my Wolverine II is not fussy at all about loading. I have yet to find anything it will not load.
11-22-2005, 10:48 AM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,922
RE: Bullet diameter
Your bore should not be that tight.
What is in it when you shoot?
How old is the rifle?
Do you remove gun oils & lubes b/4 shooting?
How often do you swab when shooting?
Maybe packing grease is still in the bore. What solvents has the bore seen?
Do you clean with a bore brush?
Answer these 6 questions please.
What is in it when you shoot?
How old is the rifle?
Do you remove gun oils & lubes b/4 shooting?
How often do you swab when shooting?
Maybe packing grease is still in the bore. What solvents has the bore seen?
Do you clean with a bore brush?
Answer these 6 questions please.
11-22-2005, 10:54 AM
#4
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11
RE: Bullet diameter
I measured the bore with a set of calipers (not an expensive set mind you) and it is close to .501, which is the initial source of my concerns.
The gun is only a few years old. I purchased if from a friend earlier this year. I clean the gun with either Bore Cleaner or sometimes I use window washer fluid.
I swab with T/C Bore Butter Cleaning Patches between shots most of the time. On ocassion i will use the window washer fluid and dry patches if i think that the bore is getting a little fouled.
When completed for the day, i do use a bore brush and bore cleaner. Bore Butter cleaning patches follow.
Could there be a buildup in the barrel?
The gun is only a few years old. I purchased if from a friend earlier this year. I clean the gun with either Bore Cleaner or sometimes I use window washer fluid.
I swab with T/C Bore Butter Cleaning Patches between shots most of the time. On ocassion i will use the window washer fluid and dry patches if i think that the bore is getting a little fouled.
When completed for the day, i do use a bore brush and bore cleaner. Bore Butter cleaning patches follow.
Could there be a buildup in the barrel?
11-22-2005, 11:06 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,922
RE: Bullet diameter
ORIGINAL: LyleK
I measured the bore with a set of calipers (not an expensive set mind you) and it is close to .501, which is the initial source of my concerns.
The gun is only a few years old. I purchased if from a friend earlier this year. I clean the gun with either Bore Cleaner or sometimes I use window washer fluid.
I swab with T/C Bore Butter Cleaning Patches between shots most of the time. On ocassion i will use the window washer fluid and dry patches if i think that the bore is getting a little fouled.
When completed for the day, i do use a bore brush and bore cleaner. Bore Butter cleaning patches follow.
Could there be a buildup in the barrel?
I measured the bore with a set of calipers (not an expensive set mind you) and it is close to .501, which is the initial source of my concerns.
The gun is only a few years old. I purchased if from a friend earlier this year. I clean the gun with either Bore Cleaner or sometimes I use window washer fluid.
I swab with T/C Bore Butter Cleaning Patches between shots most of the time. On ocassion i will use the window washer fluid and dry patches if i think that the bore is getting a little fouled.
When completed for the day, i do use a bore brush and bore cleaner. Bore Butter cleaning patches follow.
Could there be a buildup in the barrel?
What bore cleaner? I need the name.
All bore butter needs to be removed when arriving at the range
You should be swabbing with a bore brush after every 2nd shot when shooting.
Bore butter & sabot/bullets are not recommended by a majority of ML rifle & bullet manufacturers.
When buying a solvent for sabot/bullets, the container needs to say it removes, plastic, copper & lead. Very few solvents remove all three.
Any solvent saying it's for blackpowder are generally very weak & I avoid them entirely.
11-22-2005, 11:33 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,922
RE: Bullet diameter
ORIGINAL: LyleK
I believe it is Thompson Center #13 Bore Cleaner. Also, would this account for the rust colored residue that I find in my barrel after it has been cleaned and then let sit for a day?
I believe it is Thompson Center #13 Bore Cleaner. Also, would this account for the rust colored residue that I find in my barrel after it has been cleaned and then let sit for a day?
Blame that on the Bore Butter. That stuff works as a bore protector "only" after removing all traces of cleaners/water from the rifling groovesbefore applying it. You see -- it CANNOT absorb moisture so when you apply it, it slides over the moisture. A good gun oil like Birchwood Casey Sheath will absorb moisture & remove it. But the best medicine after cleaning is using a rubbing alcohol patch to absorb moisture -- then dry patches -- then gun oil.
All this should be done with bore brush. The only thing I use a jag for is seating bullets -- nothing else.
BTW.... the T/C-13 is OK for swabbing - nothing else. Windex, washer fluid or alcohol is better for me as a swabbing liquid. A good solvent that removes all three sufficiently is Birchwood-Casey 2 In 1 Bore Cleaner spray... not the one found at Wal*Marts that says just ''Bore Cleaner".
http://store.tradingpostsupply.com/yhst-12630110006743/2150440.html
Notice how this can says.. "Rust Preventer" below. Your bore butter is a rust inhibitor.... not the best.
http://www.outdoorpioneer.com/index.cfm?event=ProductDetail&ProductID=9153
11-22-2005, 11:42 AM
#8
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Bullet diameter
LyleK,
A couple of thoughts....
How clean is your barrel? sounds a bit stupid, but if you are using BB it might not be as clean as you think, do not get me wrong because I use BB also but it might be the method by which you are using it that might cause some of your problem... #13 is a very good Black Powder cleaner but is not a good bore cleaner for replica powders or plastic fouling. Get a bore cleaner set for modern ML barrels.
I am really hoping your barrel is a little larger than .501 - one way to tell for sure is shove a conical down the barrel pull it out blow it out and then mic the grooves...
If you are willing to try this clean the barrel as best you can with a good bore solvent, clean and brush it more than once - once you know you have it clean and with the breech plug out - Lightly oil the bore - then push a sabot and bullet down through. If it goes down with the effort you feel is acceptable then you have your problem solved. If it doesn't then it is time to look at different sabots, probably not different bullets. Sabot are not all the same thickness even when they say 50 x .451/.452. You do not mention what bullet/sabot you are using - if you a purchasing packages of bullets and sabots it is really hard to tell what sabot you might have.
At this point I think, the thinnest sabot out there right now is the Harvester "Crush Rib" either 50 or 44 caliber. The next thinnest might be the MMP HPH-24 again in either 44 or 45 cal. With that said I really don't think you need a "Crush Rib" in a Knight, but the HPH-24 might be the animal you are after if after cleaning your sabot/bullet combination is really still tight.
I wrote this a long time ago but I still feel it is a great barrel care formula: and yes BB is a part of it...
Barrel Care: this is really a hot topic with a ton of different thoughts - you will develope your own care plan over time.
The use of Bore Butter - I really believe it is a good product but I also beleive there is right way and a wrong way to use it in modern day ML's not using real Black Powder.
I almost hate to mention this because it is going to start up a huge discussion again.... I shoot sabots exclusivly in 6 different ML guns and 4 different shot guns - 2 of them high quality trap guns. I do not get plastic fouling in any of the ML's and I now can also say I have reduced the plastic fouling in my shotgun chokes drastically. OK here is the dirty word "bore butter"
I believe if it applied in what i think is the correct method it really reduces fouling.... Example if you have a shot gun with screw chokes after you have shot several rounds through the choke take the choke out and look at it. It will black and streaky with plasic fouling - put a little BB on your finger and rub it around in the choke - you will really be surprised at what happens to the plastic fouling.
My feelings are "how the bore butter is applied is the real key" - It should not be caked inside the barrel or added to the sabots as a lubricant, nor should it be used as a spitpatch.
The ONLY time I use BB is in a HOT barrel after cleaning and when the the barrel is dry. Apply BB to a cotton bore swab and run it down the barrel, the hotter the barrel the better, because the pores are wide open. When you pull the bore swab out you will not belive what has happen, the pores in the barrel will litterally suck up the BB completely remove it from your brush. I do this a couple of times - then while the barrel is still warm dry patch it with a clean patch and get as much of the loose BB out as you can. After it has cooled re-pete the patch process. The only BB that reamins will be in the pores and a small amount trapped behind the lands.Your first shot will remove that also. The final step is to apply a light of coat of quality gun oil. What you have now is a clean and smooth barrel, I really would not use the words "a seasoned barrel" because it is not... what it is a smooth bore less prone to cause fricton.This coating last for several rounds releasing a bit each time it is fired.
Lots of people are going to disagree but that is what 6 years of experiance has shown me and others. It is all in how you APPLY IT.
Another thing I do not battle and I think it is again becuse of BB - I do not get the "crud ring" in any of my ML's and I use t7 loose powder with 209 ignition.
Now, all of this is my opinion and your results may not be the same - BUT don't shoot the messenger - the non BB folks are a lot more vocal than the bb users.
Hope you find your answers... let me know if I can help with anything - Cayugad is also a GREAT resource he has been there and he is still there...
A couple of thoughts....
How clean is your barrel? sounds a bit stupid, but if you are using BB it might not be as clean as you think, do not get me wrong because I use BB also but it might be the method by which you are using it that might cause some of your problem... #13 is a very good Black Powder cleaner but is not a good bore cleaner for replica powders or plastic fouling. Get a bore cleaner set for modern ML barrels.
I am really hoping your barrel is a little larger than .501 - one way to tell for sure is shove a conical down the barrel pull it out blow it out and then mic the grooves...
If you are willing to try this clean the barrel as best you can with a good bore solvent, clean and brush it more than once - once you know you have it clean and with the breech plug out - Lightly oil the bore - then push a sabot and bullet down through. If it goes down with the effort you feel is acceptable then you have your problem solved. If it doesn't then it is time to look at different sabots, probably not different bullets. Sabot are not all the same thickness even when they say 50 x .451/.452. You do not mention what bullet/sabot you are using - if you a purchasing packages of bullets and sabots it is really hard to tell what sabot you might have.
At this point I think, the thinnest sabot out there right now is the Harvester "Crush Rib" either 50 or 44 caliber. The next thinnest might be the MMP HPH-24 again in either 44 or 45 cal. With that said I really don't think you need a "Crush Rib" in a Knight, but the HPH-24 might be the animal you are after if after cleaning your sabot/bullet combination is really still tight.
I wrote this a long time ago but I still feel it is a great barrel care formula: and yes BB is a part of it...
Barrel Care: this is really a hot topic with a ton of different thoughts - you will develope your own care plan over time.
The use of Bore Butter - I really believe it is a good product but I also beleive there is right way and a wrong way to use it in modern day ML's not using real Black Powder.
I almost hate to mention this because it is going to start up a huge discussion again.... I shoot sabots exclusivly in 6 different ML guns and 4 different shot guns - 2 of them high quality trap guns. I do not get plastic fouling in any of the ML's and I now can also say I have reduced the plastic fouling in my shotgun chokes drastically. OK here is the dirty word "bore butter"
I believe if it applied in what i think is the correct method it really reduces fouling.... Example if you have a shot gun with screw chokes after you have shot several rounds through the choke take the choke out and look at it. It will black and streaky with plasic fouling - put a little BB on your finger and rub it around in the choke - you will really be surprised at what happens to the plastic fouling.
My feelings are "how the bore butter is applied is the real key" - It should not be caked inside the barrel or added to the sabots as a lubricant, nor should it be used as a spitpatch.
The ONLY time I use BB is in a HOT barrel after cleaning and when the the barrel is dry. Apply BB to a cotton bore swab and run it down the barrel, the hotter the barrel the better, because the pores are wide open. When you pull the bore swab out you will not belive what has happen, the pores in the barrel will litterally suck up the BB completely remove it from your brush. I do this a couple of times - then while the barrel is still warm dry patch it with a clean patch and get as much of the loose BB out as you can. After it has cooled re-pete the patch process. The only BB that reamins will be in the pores and a small amount trapped behind the lands.Your first shot will remove that also. The final step is to apply a light of coat of quality gun oil. What you have now is a clean and smooth barrel, I really would not use the words "a seasoned barrel" because it is not... what it is a smooth bore less prone to cause fricton.This coating last for several rounds releasing a bit each time it is fired.
Lots of people are going to disagree but that is what 6 years of experiance has shown me and others. It is all in how you APPLY IT.
Another thing I do not battle and I think it is again becuse of BB - I do not get the "crud ring" in any of my ML's and I use t7 loose powder with 209 ignition.
Now, all of this is my opinion and your results may not be the same - BUT don't shoot the messenger - the non BB folks are a lot more vocal than the bb users.
Hope you find your answers... let me know if I can help with anything - Cayugad is also a GREAT resource he has been there and he is still there...
11-22-2005, 11:46 AM
#9
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11
RE: Bullet diameter
Hey ...... thank all of you for your input. This has been frustrating for me. Frustrating to the point that shooting is turning into an aggravation for me as opposed to the fun it was before BP.
I will try all of the ideas and promise to get back to you when i have this solved.
Thanks again - you guys are the best !!
Have a great Thanksgiving.
Lyle
I will try all of the ideas and promise to get back to you when i have this solved.
Thanks again - you guys are the best !!
Have a great Thanksgiving.
Lyle
11-28-2005, 09:19 AM
#10
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11
Reply to Bullet diameter
Here is the follow-up I promised:
Used the 2 in 1 Bore Scrubber to clean out the excess Bore Butter - took about an hour and 20 patches to get the stuff out.
Once cleaned, the gun loaded easily with both the .44 Hornady's and the .45 Hornady's.
2 shots at range (open sights @ 50 yards) - both bullets cut the bullseye.
So, I am more than thrilled with the results and very appreciative of everyone's input
Lyle
Used the 2 in 1 Bore Scrubber to clean out the excess Bore Butter - took about an hour and 20 patches to get the stuff out.
Once cleaned, the gun loaded easily with both the .44 Hornady's and the .45 Hornady's.
2 shots at range (open sights @ 50 yards) - both bullets cut the bullseye.
So, I am more than thrilled with the results and very appreciative of everyone's input
Lyle
