Barrel proofing, How?
10-14-2005, 04:59 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,081
Barrel proofing, How?
I'm considering building a muzzleloader at some time in the hopefully not to distant future and was thinking through some of the things I would want to do to insure the safety of the gun.
I have read several places about people "proofing" their guns with double charges and/or double projectiles and firing them with firecracker fuses and such. What I would like to know is, How do you determine if the gun has "survived" the proofing?
The obvious answer is, it didn't if it blows up. But what if it doesn't blow up but is stressed and therefore weakened but not obviously damaged? How does one quantifiably measure if the proof load did/did not damage or overstress the barrel?
One thought I had was to measure the diameter of the barrel before and after to determine if it had changed, but how much change would be too much change? Maybe it should be magnafluxed before and after to show any cracking, etc. What do you all think? Is there some place where this kind of information can be found?
Thanks in advance for any knowledge you can send my way.
I have read several places about people "proofing" their guns with double charges and/or double projectiles and firing them with firecracker fuses and such. What I would like to know is, How do you determine if the gun has "survived" the proofing?
The obvious answer is, it didn't if it blows up. But what if it doesn't blow up but is stressed and therefore weakened but not obviously damaged? How does one quantifiably measure if the proof load did/did not damage or overstress the barrel?
One thought I had was to measure the diameter of the barrel before and after to determine if it had changed, but how much change would be too much change? Maybe it should be magnafluxed before and after to show any cracking, etc. What do you all think? Is there some place where this kind of information can be found?
Thanks in advance for any knowledge you can send my way.
10-14-2005, 06:13 AM
#3
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Jim Thorpe, PA
Posts: 536
RE: Barrel proofing, How?
I'm sure a lot of guys will disagree, but I wouldn't buy a CVA as there have been enough posts about problems with the Spanish barrels, which are not proofed. Buy a TC or a Knight if you must have an in-line. Also, there is no reason to load a barrel to the max unless you're hunting Kodiak bear.
10-14-2005, 06:40 AM
#4
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 69
RE: Barrel proofing, How?
ORIGINAL: Firehawk7309
Why not just use the gun the way the manufacture suggested? Let them do the "proofing" and you do the hunting. I must admit that I've never heard of this before.
Why not just use the gun the way the manufacture suggested? Let them do the "proofing" and you do the hunting. I must admit that I've never heard of this before.
Sorry I have no information on this. I'll look around and if I find anything i'll let you know.
10-14-2005, 10:07 AM
#5
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 21,193
RE: Barrel proofing, How?
Are you actually going to bore your own barrel? WOW.. that is really going to be a project. Good luck with this. As for the proof testing, I have no idea how they test the amount of pressure that the rifle will take.
I know the old rifles we did not trust we used to load them, tie them to a tire and fire them off with a long string. When you're young a foolish thinking ahead is not a requirement. Then you get thinking about what you just did, and what if that was the last amount of stress that barrel could take before it was ready to rupture.
Just a quick comment on BPI products. These include much more then the CVA line of rifles. You need to add Tradition's, Winchester, New Frontier, and even some others. Yes they are not proof tested to standards some people find acceptable. If that bothers you, then do as Mike said, he does not buy them. I personally own a number of them. I do not load them hot, then again I do not load my Thompson Centers, Green Mountains, or Knights hot even though they are alleged able to take the pressures.
What I am getting at is, if you own a BPI product and have any doubts as to the structural integrity of the rifle, then by all means for your own peace of mind get rid of the rifle and get something you trust. If this testing issue does not bother you, then load the rifle according the recommendations of the manufacture and shoot it. The choice is yours.
I know the old rifles we did not trust we used to load them, tie them to a tire and fire them off with a long string. When you're young a foolish thinking ahead is not a requirement. Then you get thinking about what you just did, and what if that was the last amount of stress that barrel could take before it was ready to rupture.
Just a quick comment on BPI products. These include much more then the CVA line of rifles. You need to add Tradition's, Winchester, New Frontier, and even some others. Yes they are not proof tested to standards some people find acceptable. If that bothers you, then do as Mike said, he does not buy them. I personally own a number of them. I do not load them hot, then again I do not load my Thompson Centers, Green Mountains, or Knights hot even though they are alleged able to take the pressures.
What I am getting at is, if you own a BPI product and have any doubts as to the structural integrity of the rifle, then by all means for your own peace of mind get rid of the rifle and get something you trust. If this testing issue does not bother you, then load the rifle according the recommendations of the manufacture and shoot it. The choice is yours.
10-14-2005, 10:24 AM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: Barrel proofing, How?
Measuring the outside dimensions is one way of trying to determine if the barrel has been stretched. Another way is to push a tight-fitting patch down the bore and pull it back out before and after firing. Any buldging or loose spots will certainly show up! Also, inspect the breech plug area and the touch hole or touch hole liner if a flintlock, and the drum & nipple seats on a caplock. I don't believe cracking or actually bursting is much of a concern, given the kind of steel most barrel makers are using these days-it is more likely to stretch or swell up if pressures are too high.
I am about to proof-test a .73-cal flintlock barrel. My first test shot will be with 200 grains of FFg powder and two tightly patched .715" round balls. Next, if the barrel survives that test intact, I plan to fire it a couple moretimes with 200 grains of FFg and one ball.
My standard loadings will never exceed 150 grains FFg and one ball, so if anything about the barrel was stressed but does not show up using the 200-grain/one ball load, I will consider the barrel O.K. for use.
Dixie Gun Works says to "use twice too much powder (whatever that is!!) and two balls/bullets" of the type that will be used in the barrel. BUT, they don't say what to check for after the shot! I think ypur question is a very valid and important one, since a barrel could survive one overload, but be damaged to the point of being unsafe.
I am about to proof-test a .73-cal flintlock barrel. My first test shot will be with 200 grains of FFg powder and two tightly patched .715" round balls. Next, if the barrel survives that test intact, I plan to fire it a couple moretimes with 200 grains of FFg and one ball.
My standard loadings will never exceed 150 grains FFg and one ball, so if anything about the barrel was stressed but does not show up using the 200-grain/one ball load, I will consider the barrel O.K. for use.
Dixie Gun Works says to "use twice too much powder (whatever that is!!) and two balls/bullets" of the type that will be used in the barrel. BUT, they don't say what to check for after the shot! I think ypur question is a very valid and important one, since a barrel could survive one overload, but be damaged to the point of being unsafe.
10-14-2005, 10:27 AM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: Barrel proofing, How?
ORIGINAL: Firehawk7309
Why not just use the gun the way the manufacture suggested? Let them do the "proofing" and you do the hunting. I must admit that I've never heard of this before.
Why not just use the gun the way the manufacture suggested? Let them do the "proofing" and you do the hunting. I must admit that I've never heard of this before.
He's not talking about a gun he bought already made!
10-14-2005, 01:18 PM
#8
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 4,127
RE: Barrel proofing, How?
David - I think the best thing to do at the outset is to get a barrel blank made from quality steel - preferrablyone rated for centerfire rifles. You didn't say if you were going to bore/rifle your own, or buy an already rifled blank. If you are buying a blank (Green Mountain has a big selection) that already has the lands and grooves cut in it, and just threading it for a breech plug - you are essentially doing what gunsmiths do every day when they re-barrel.
If I was using a top quality MZ barrel, like Green Mountain, I wouldn't even worry about proofing it - unless you were turning it down so thin that wall thickness was a concern. About the only other thing that could bite you in the keyster would be if the threading of the barrel for breech plug was done improperly - such that the only a portion of the threads were holding. Then the breech plug could wind up coming back into your right cheekbone
But otherwise this doesn't sound like a real complicated project - or at least a lot less complicated than re-barreling a centerfire rifle.
If I was using a top quality MZ barrel, like Green Mountain, I wouldn't even worry about proofing it - unless you were turning it down so thin that wall thickness was a concern. About the only other thing that could bite you in the keyster would be if the threading of the barrel for breech plug was done improperly - such that the only a portion of the threads were holding. Then the breech plug could wind up coming back into your right cheekbone
But otherwise this doesn't sound like a real complicated project - or at least a lot less complicated than re-barreling a centerfire rifle.
10-14-2005, 05:18 PM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,092
RE: Barrel proofing, How?
I think there are methods of non-destructive testing available now that never existed in the history of proofing. X-ray, magnetic and flourescent flaw detection, magnetic analysis, and I'm sure others. I don't know how much, if any, of the newer technology is employed by proof houses. Those techniques could physically measure the effects of an overcharge and provide meaningful results as to barrel quality - but are very likely far too costly to incorporate into typical firearms manufacture.
So, we are left with "Hold my beer and watch this!!" or pretty meaningless testing that says a particular barrel withstood a particular charge at least ONCE. Guess that leaves you still scratchin' your head, but I think it leaves the rest of us in the same boat. CVA and the like that use Spanish barrels put a proof stampon their rifles that is even less than useful in my opinion - it suggests their barrels are safe for handling loads far less than their own recommended loads generate. Some say it's a minimum required by Spanish law - well, that was never what proofing was about and should never be what proofing is about. If that is all it signifies, then why not a simple check mark or "passed" stamped on the barrel? A proof stamp on any other rifle would suggest something far more meaningful and an absolute stop sign pressure-wise.
But this reply isn't intended to be about Spanish barrels, just proofing in general. I guess Savage proofs every barrel that goes on a 10ML-II (I don't know that, just read that). The difference in quality between a soft-steel barrel and a quality American made barrel is fairly obvious even to my blurry eyes, proof stamp or no.
So, if it's a store bought barrel you can look for a quality make that has a great reputation - that's about the best you can do for now. As many muzzleloaders are sold nowadays it seems to me some industry standardization in this area would be of benefit to us all - even if it meant a few more dollars at the register. No need to go Ralph Nader, but some standardization in barrel dimensions and pressure testing sure wouldn't hurt my confidence level.
So, we are left with "Hold my beer and watch this!!" or pretty meaningless testing that says a particular barrel withstood a particular charge at least ONCE. Guess that leaves you still scratchin' your head, but I think it leaves the rest of us in the same boat. CVA and the like that use Spanish barrels put a proof stampon their rifles that is even less than useful in my opinion - it suggests their barrels are safe for handling loads far less than their own recommended loads generate. Some say it's a minimum required by Spanish law - well, that was never what proofing was about and should never be what proofing is about. If that is all it signifies, then why not a simple check mark or "passed" stamped on the barrel? A proof stamp on any other rifle would suggest something far more meaningful and an absolute stop sign pressure-wise.
But this reply isn't intended to be about Spanish barrels, just proofing in general. I guess Savage proofs every barrel that goes on a 10ML-II (I don't know that, just read that). The difference in quality between a soft-steel barrel and a quality American made barrel is fairly obvious even to my blurry eyes, proof stamp or no.
So, if it's a store bought barrel you can look for a quality make that has a great reputation - that's about the best you can do for now. As many muzzleloaders are sold nowadays it seems to me some industry standardization in this area would be of benefit to us all - even if it meant a few more dollars at the register. No need to go Ralph Nader, but some standardization in barrel dimensions and pressure testing sure wouldn't hurt my confidence level.
10-15-2005, 12:27 AM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,081
RE: Barrel proofing, How?
eldeguello, I have also read that in the Dixie catalog and did not understand why they didn't give more info on determining the results. I've been looking around some on the web but havn't found anything definative.
I am still in the planning and design consideration stages so I haven't determined if I will buy a pre bored/rifled barrel or go for a roll-your-own kind of barrel. I do have a blacksmith friend and several machinists in the family so I think I could do it if I pool my resources. Just not sure how much I want to bite off yet.
Itwas not my intentfor this thread to get into a discussion about various barrel makers and their quality. I am more interested in the actual process of proofing and how to measure the results of that proofing.
I appreciate the comments and information provided so far and look forward to any more insights thatare out there.
Have a great day.
I am still in the planning and design consideration stages so I haven't determined if I will buy a pre bored/rifled barrel or go for a roll-your-own kind of barrel. I do have a blacksmith friend and several machinists in the family so I think I could do it if I pool my resources. Just not sure how much I want to bite off yet.
Itwas not my intentfor this thread to get into a discussion about various barrel makers and their quality. I am more interested in the actual process of proofing and how to measure the results of that proofing.
I appreciate the comments and information provided so far and look forward to any more insights thatare out there.
Have a great day.