randyh

Just a question - saw elsewhere the advice to never go hunting with a "clean" barrel. The author was stating that best accuracy is obtained from a slightly fouled barrel, and that in his experience quite often the first shot from a cleaned, dry barrel, would result in a flier that could be off as much as 8 inches at 100yds. Anyone care to cooment on this?

dmurphy317

The best way to know if your gun has this tendency is to shoot 2 shots at the range, 1 clean, next fouled. that will tell you if you have a change in point of impact (as well as point of aim)enough to justify fouling first. This is also a good idea to do so you know if a quick follow up shot is going to go where you want it to.

I have some loads that need a fouling shot and others that don't. If your close to point of aim on a clean barrel at the range you expect to shoot, don't worry to much about it.

Good luck.

cayugad

If you sight the rifle in with a clean barrel, then hunt with a clean barrel. If you sight the rifle in on a fowled barrel then you might want to hunt that way. Many rifles will shoot very near the same POI on a clean or fowled barrel. We are talking just a small distance. Other rifles with certain projectiles will actually shoot a few inches different. These are the things that only practice at the range on a clean or fowled barrel will tell you.

On the inlines, I like to shoot a few 209's through the barrel before loading. Whether this would be considered fowling, I am not really sure. I suppose if the primers put enough crud into the barrel it would be. I then find that the difference between the clean and fowled barrel is very slight. My worst inline for difference in fowled and clean is my Knight Wolverine II. If you shoot on a unfowled barrel the scope is right on. If you do not at least swab the fowling out of the barrel, the shot will hit almost two inches in difference. I do understand this and keep this in mind when I shoot the rifle. I also practice with it both ways.

With my traditional rifles, they seem to shoot the same place whether fowled or clean, so I hunt them on a clean barrel. I also have made sure to practice and know where they shot will hit... Today I double checked the rifle at 100 yards. Both were within an inch and a half of each other. At 100 yards with open sights, I could not get too concerned with the difference. That could be a simple sight error on my part.

roundball

I've seen that occasional comment from time to time over the years but havenever experienced it with a houseful of TC Hawkens over 15+ years...I always sight in a hunting rifle with a cold clean barrel just like it will be for hunting, butfrankly any followon shots print the same way as the first...and the good news is, if I don't take a shot while hunting that day,when I get home I simply pull the load, run a lubed patch down the still clean bore, and set the rifle back in the rack in a warm house.

After all the care and attention I give my my muzzleloaders to keep them in pristine clean and lubed condition,the LAST thing in the world I ever dois intentionally foul the bore, then carry around a fouled rifle all day.

Foranyonewho experiences that rare phenomenon you mentioned, it might be best tolook at otherpossibilitieslike type of lube, amount of lube, etc, rather than intentionally fouling the bore...I use Natural Lube 1000 heavily as bore lube and patch lube....when I go to the range on Saturday mornings, everything from the 1stshot to the 40th shot is right where it's suppposed to be...so it may simply be thathaving the bore coatedwith NL1000 is what givesconsistency...the film of bore butter may act like the filmfrom fouling.

Triple Se7en

How do you pulla load out of a heavily butter-lubed bore thru the muzzle& comment that it'sa "still clean bore"? Powder granules & ash cling to the bore walls of a heavily, butter-lubed barrel after pulling the load. While the bore is not in any immediate danger of corroding & hanging the rifle back on a hanger overnightwon't hurt it, wouldn't you first use a dry patch toremove some granule & ash remnants beforeadministering new lube to the bore for the next day?????... then give the rifle a thorough cleaning when done hunting... even without firing a shot? No way is that rifle "pristine" after pulling that load using heavy doses of T/C buttered lube. Pulling an undersized roundball does not remove the patch. A patch-puller will not self-clean the bore coming back out.

What am I missing here?
=============

Bores that shoot an errant first shot have a few reasons behind this condition. Some folks forget to remove the storing compounds before they shoot. Some folks forget to clear the nipple, inline breechplug& sidelock drum by firing three caps first. Some folks do not use the same loading force & the same loose powder-pouring technique& same rifle tilt from shot-1 to shot-2. This "1st shot-flyer" occurence is more common with sidelocks than with inlines -- more common with loose-fitting projectiles than tight-fitting ones. It's more common with slightly oversized bores likeolder Knight rifles.... more common with Powerbelts. It's more common with using the wrong weighted lubed conical in shallow-groove MLs -- it's more common when trying sabots in a deep-grooved 1-48" twist...... etc.... etc.

Roskoe

My Hawken would invariably shoot the first shot from a clean barrel a couple of inches higher than subsequent shots. And as it got real fouled and the bullets got harder to seat, it would shoot even lower yet. Knowing this tendency, I would sight in for that first shot and carry the gun clean in the field. 3" high at 100 yards for the first shot and right on at 100 yards for the second shot.

My T/C inlines are all printing the same from first shot to last shot. I swab between shots, so each load is passing through a relatively clean barrel. They are also very good about holding zero over time, and not changing point of impact after removing the stock for a thorough cleaning.

roundball

In the contect of the discussion about "fouling a bore"....my words of "a still clean bore" were in thatcontext.....of not having fired the rifle creating a "fouled bore", therefore a "still clean bore" in that respect.

You can do whatever you like...if you don't mindfouling your bores then sitting in the woods witha fouled borefor several hours, go for it, that's your choice.

It's not required for anything associated with muzzleloading, it unnecessarily fouls a rifle with corrosive residue,and I don't do it...that's my choice.

FYI...whenpullingor blowing out a load with compressed air,thereare wiping/lubing steps involved...of course...been doing it since the late 80's...works perfectly.

dmurphy317

I've had less trouble from my sidelocks "throwing" the first shot than from my inline. I shoot mostly PRB in them and I think the consistency is from the wiping action of the patch. I can shoot 20 to 30 shots without cleaning and still hold a consistent group.

With the inline it seems to happen more with lighterconicals and light PowerBelts. Sabot loads have less problems.When shooting larger bullets like the No Excuses 460 it prints the same for at least 6 shots. With some loads I've seen as much as 8" difference from 1st to 2nd shot. That even after swabbing the clean bore andpopping 3 caps/primers.

When using one of those loads, I drop in a Clean Shot pellet (left over from a breif forray in that direction) and a wad of cleaning patches over it and fire it. I've never had any problems with the small amount of fouling in the barrel and itputs my first shot right where it's suppose to be.

Triple Se7en

"PULLING" a load is manual/old-fashioned way of removing the bullet, powder & patch. This word "pull" is what you used in your reply. Doing it this way requires a bore cleaning at the end of your hunting venture. So in essence, the bore is not clean when pulling a load with bore walls lathered in T/C Lube 1000 .... Bore Butter.

"PUSHING" a loadis by-means of compressed air. You did not state anything about "push". Compressed air discharges have so much force that itwould minimize powder residue on your buttered bore walls. You could possibly get away from a bore cleaning session for an extended period... ie... months.... but I would not trust keeping the bore in that condition for years.

Nobody uses the word "push" when discussing bullet removal. But unless you include the compressed airmention in your "pulling the load" posts, most-allposters assume you are doing it the old-fashioned way & the old-fashioned way is alot messier than compressed air with sticky lube on the bore walls.

I'm done here Roundball. It was no big deal once all the missing info was brought forward. That is why I concluded my original reply to you with the question....

What Am I missing Here??????

You supplied the missing information. Thank You!

Criggster

I always shoot at least one cap on an empty barrel to foul it before hunting or shooting. Because, I cleaned my ML last year real good, and loaded a powerbelt into it with 100 grains of pyrodex pellets. And, it sounded like a popgun went off!! To my amazement it didn't even make it to the big piece of cardboard 25 yards away! For the small cost of a cap it's good insurance!